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Huh, weird, access to sexual education, contraception, and medical termination should the above fail, allows women to wait until they are more financially settled and independent. And as a result, a lot of whoopsie-babies are never born, lowering the overall birth rate.
That’s what I get from this diagram, at least. Birthrate among women under college-age is down, birthrate above college-age is up.
This is a good thing. The older moms, not the declining rate. The declining rate is worrying because our society relies on younger generations to prop up and care for the older ones.
Now let’s keep doing what we are doing, and then find ways to make people who want to have kids less nervous about the massive financial, career, and time commitments of them. The costs of food, childcare, education, housing. and healthcare (in the US) is absurd.
Each of my kids deliveries alone “cost” more than the used minivan we cart them around in. I put cost in quotes, because that’s what the insurance “paid”.
But of course, my insurance premiums each year also cost more than that minivan, too. At least they are pre-tax.
I got a kid in second grade and he will probably be in college by the time I’m done paying for my wife’s state college loans.
I, fortunately, got into a very well paying career after dropping out a semester into college, and I happen to have a natural aptitude for it. I recognize I lucked my way into my station, I’d be foolish to forget it. But honestly I have no idea how we’d do it if I didn’t. We make 4x the median household income for my area and every time we manage to save a little bit, something always comes around to clear out 90% of it. It’s incredibly demoralizing.
I know the childfree folks (and most Republicans) hate the idea of their taxes paying for medicaid, or college, or even public school (or even free lunches there!). But the fact is that an educated and healthy generation below us is usually the most important things for society to invest in. Now we also have to worry about keeping the planet habitable for them.
Pay people a living wage and their gonna live.
Pay people more than a living wage and their gonna create more life.
Tbf. Norway has a fertility rate of 1,4 I think. And that is in a country with (compared to many other places) quite generous benefits like a year paid maternity/paternity leave. Relative cheap and abundant kindergartens and a less horrible work situation. Think everyone are feeling the zeitgeist
People want stability before they have kids. Generous government benefits matter little if you’re living in a cardboard box. No one wants to raise a child in a cardboard box. Look up the cost of housing in the Nordic countries. They aren’t the socialist paradise you’re making them out to be.
It’s more nuanced than that. Wages are comparable high, and there are some tax regulations that makes owning less expensive. Renting is still not the norm in Norway. Second+++ apartments/houses are severely taxed in a recent new regulation (incidentally making renting more expensive as they were sold off)
Outside some “metropolitan” areas like Oslo you can find lex expensive homes. But you are correct that prices have started to be our of reach of many, and stability is key for starting a family.
And Norway is by no means a paradise, but it seems more agreeable than the US.
The median household income in Norway is 590,000 NOK. The median total housing expense is about 158,000 NOK. Thus the median Norwegian household is spending about 27% of their income on housing. This is pretty comparable to the US, where the median figure is 26%.
This is the median across the whole population, and of course, for younger people that amount should be higher. Really it seems that the US and Norway are about the same when it comes to housing affordability.
It gets worse however if you look at actual home prices and not just monthly payments. The average home price in Norway is about 5,000,000 NOK.. That means the average home costs about 8.5x the average income. In the US, the median home price is about $430,000., while the median household income is about $77.5k. The average home in the US thus costs about 5.5x the average income.
Homes in the US are cheaper than in Norway, while US incomes are higher. The median household income in Norway is the equivalent of $54,000. Also, the median home in the US is larger than that of Norway.
This is somewhat ameliorated by the fact that US consumers have to pay more out of pocket for healthcare, childcare, and commuting costs than their Norwegian equivalents do. But really, it shows that even after the subsidies, Norway is no more affordable for new parents than the US is. If anything, it’s probably more affordable in the US. Yes, you can always move to a rural area in Norway to get cheaper housing, but you can do the same in the US. People live in those bigger, more expensive, cities because they provide better job opportunities and better salaries.
My real point is that we can’t just point to the more generous welfare state of the Nordic countries as an example for how birthrates can’t be solved with financial incentives. A lot of people like to point to countries with generous welfare states like Norway and say, “look, even countries like Norway, who heavily subsidize healthcare, childcare, and have generous parental leave still have low birth rates!” Typically people who make these arguments want to argue for restricting women’s reproductive autonomy.
But it really does come down to housing. And in both Norway and the US, the cost of homeownership is getting way beyond what people of childbearing age can afford. That is the fundamental problem. There’s something very deep and instinctive about the places we live in. Having a truly stable place to live, ideally a place you own and can easily afford, is the single greatest way to encourage people of childbearing years to have children. People want to provide a stable environment for children to grow up in. They don’t want to live in a place where their landlord could kick them out on a whim. They don’t want to be reliant on a government-subsidized apartment that could be taken away from them tomorrow if eligibility rules are changed. People want either very reliable and affordable rental space or ideally a home they own on their own and can’t be evicted from. That is the kind of stability people seek before they have children.
The world is on fire around us, even in places where it’s only smoldering people don’t want to consign their children to the flames.
The reason why people aren’t having kids anymore isn’t because of abortion, its because: wages are decreasing (accounting for inflation), the cost of living is skyrocketing (yes even accounting for inflation), the cost of owning a home is now far too much for young people, people are working longer and more stressful hours in worse jobs for worse bosses, public areas have been destroyed leading to less in person interaction, online dating is toxic, the internet has given people heightened expectations, an unresolved mental health crisis, and people are finally becoming responsible enough to understand that you shouldn’t have kids you cant afford.
Losing my job and seeing there’s about 100 times more people applying for IT jobs than there are IT jobs made me go from “maybe” to “nah” in the procreation question. Too many people already procreated too many times before me.
wages are decreasing (accounting for inflation), the cost of living is skyrocketing (yes even accounting for inflation), the cost of owning a home is now far too much for young people
Because the first thing people do when they get horny is immediately check their bank account balance 🙄
No but if you cant afford kids im guessing you’re more likey to use protection and/or other means to prevent pregnancy
Hard to go out on a date and impress someone if you can only afford staying at home with beans & rice.
online dating is toxic
I’ve read some good evidence is that this is because women, especially zoomer and millennial women, are considerably more liberal than the men in their peer group. Historically, women have always been more liberal than men, but the difference between them has gotten extreme in the last 10 years. Being a Trump supporter is a deal-breaker for many single women.
Great news - the fewer Trumpers who reproduce, the better.
Online dating is incredibly toxic for gay men, too, so this isn’t something that can be completely explained by a shift in women’s ideology.
I will take your word for it. I am not involved in any online dating, but am also not gay.
That’s completely reasonable, why would a women date a man who thinks that she doesn’t own her own body (not all but a significant amount of Trump supporters believe that). In addition women are more liberal because primarily their rights have and are being threatened by Trump, furthermore women are more likely to be sympathetic to other minorities who may loose their rights as well. On top of that young conservative men are very often completely delusional in terms of dating expectations. Many of them demand an extremely young person (18-20), demand they be stay at home, demand many children, while not having a job capable of upholding such a lifestyle because they cannot accept that the world we live in is not the same one our grandparents lived in. In addition young conservatives (especially young Trump supporters) tend to have completely unreasonable demands and expectations due to them being terminally online and a very poor understanding of women.
It’s even worse than that. They want women to work full time, keep all the housework done, assume all the work with the child after work, while cooking dinner, washing up, stay looking fantastic, never complain and oh, mow the lawn while I’m playing golf/bball/football on Saturday, and don’t forget Suzie has ballet on Wednesday, Bobby has detention on Friday, and football practice on Saturday.
Not so sure about that. Isn’t Vance advocating for women to strive to be stay at home moms. So you can cut the full time job from that list. His comments about staying in the kitchen would also rule out the lawn and driving anywhere. I think he just wants women to stay home and be there for when their husband wants to see them, and only leave the house when he wants to bring her somewhere.
Probably. I just meant that’s the mindset of certain men in our area. Certain meaning if they want the trad wife but realize a single income isn’t enough. Or whatever else is convenient, I guess. I’m just going by those I’ve known in a concentrated region, not all men are like that and I’m so glad!
I dont get men tbh, or Trump supporters. Im too Transfem to understand them :3
I don’t understand women or Trump supporters so we have something in common.
You just listed 6 reasons why people are losing their minds then casually throw out “being responsible enough to not have kids they can’t afford”
Which is if? Everyone’s losing their goddamn minds of people have their shit together? Which is it damn it!!
/S
I forgot that only one thing can be true at once, its actually none of the reasons listed. The true reason is that the 5g radio waves connect with the vaccine autism to produce gay frog chemicals (that are spread by chemtrails in planes piloted by lizard people) so that everyone becomes trans.
/s /j
This makes way more sense
Poland has super strict abortion bans in 2021. Wait until 2035 to see that place turn into a shithole
What is the reasoning behind the 14 year wait, is it tied to anything in particular? Or is it just that 13 year olds know how to make fun of the thing you are sensitive about
abortion gets banned. <-----You stopped thinking here
children are born in unloving homes
homes have with limited opportunities to succeed
children grow up as degenerates
commit crimes to get money and feed themselves/support bad habits
create more children that cycle the same behavior
Do you get surprised when six sided dice don’t show a 0 or a 7?
Or do you eat raw chicken because you don’t plan ahead to cook it?
I have a modest proposal.
Let’s all just skip a generation and no one have kids this time. We can easily start having kids again later with a nice clean slate.
Good idea, right?
Of course, if you outlaw kids, only outlaws will have kids.
Good call! Next gen can have children for our pensions!
let kids be kids. when you force kids to be parents, you are stealing their childhood. all you have to do is explain “sex” in bits and pieces, when it’s appropriate, and eventually they’re ready for the anatomy explanations and maybe you can help soften the trauma of puberty.
It’s almost like if people are able to mature enough to make an informed choice, they get a choice.
EVERYBODY is mad!!!
well that is because shareholders are wetting their pants realizing that with low birth rates they are losing both slaves and customers. Well, jokes on them, it is because of the shitty world they spearheaded (and that we followed)
That person and the author of the article obviously suck at reading/understanding crafts. Teen pregnancies did not have a high enough percentage (and it’s good that it went down).
Also, how do you miss the drop in the age range 20 - 24 and the rise in the age ranges above 30. It’s even indicated in the title to “40 is the new 20”.
This is indicative of a bad economy. I bet if you add a graph showing the rise in rent, you will see an inverse correlation.
Not much of a bet, really. More of a fact.
I bet if you add a graph showing the rise in rent, you will see an inverse correlation.
Or about inequality of income.
I think this is where a lot of modern civilization is falling apart at. If you want population replacement and growth, you actually have to make it advantageous to have children, and at appropriate age for your society and culture. The GOP thinks they can do it by destroying reproductive rights, civil rights, and marriage laws, if they harm women enough they’ll HAVE to be baby makers! Dehumanized baby factories! And even conservative voters are fighting against it, because it’s insane and it’s against our current culture. It has to work for everyone. It would be more intelligent to create free childcare, better pregnancy and birth leave for both parents, and child tax credits. They could use WIC to absorb the cost of having a child and public education sooner with preschool. If people are hopeful their children will have high education access and a stable life they will be a lot more likely to have kids. Being horrified that your children will live in a fascist theocracy and intentionally kept uneducated and poverty stricken, they might actually voluntarily avoid sex to not have kids.
What if we don’t want infinite growth? What about stability? Or (gasp) a population reduction so we don’t destroy the planet. Have less babies. Feed the ones we have. Educate them.
Sure, easing into a deflating population over several hundred years is fine but tanking it and ending up with a society having to support a vastly older population ain’t easy either. Better for governments to provide positive reasons to have children but there’s zero chance of that.
We won’t starve our old people, there’s plenty of wealth to go around, it’s just that a tiny portion of the population has stolen it all. Maybe even the average person will have to make some sacrifices if birth rates don’t stay at a certain level but our lifestyles are hugely inflated compared to even 50 years ago.
We can live sustainable lives with a reducing population, our productivity per capita is higher than it’s ever been, we’re all just seeing so little of it.
Instead of Musks and Bezos, instead of all of our creative minds working in advertising and finance, instead of 10 different streaming services, we can have a good quality of life for everyone.
Our economy being efficient is the biggest lie. The economy is only profitable, and it only has good outcomes when those outcomes are aligned with profit. It’s time for a new economy that serves the people
Our government has no issue going into debt for anything and everything they want, aside from social services. The whole concept of a younger generation having to take care of a growing older one means nothing to me. If they care, they can shift their priorities on reckless spending. If they don’t (they dont) then the population can take to the streets and demand they start caring.
We’re going to run into a crisis within our life time whether we like it or not. Within 10-20 years, possibly longer if legislation somehow hampers it, pretty much the entire working class will be unemployable because machine labor will be cheaper and more readily available than any human. Yes, some people will still have jobs, but not the working class.
Long before we have a crisis of too many elderly for the working to care and provide for, we are going to have a crisis of not enough jobs paying a liveable wage for one, let alone a family, because corporations are going to be able to replace large swathes of their workforces with machines that cost less to maintain per unit than minimum wage, so why would they ever hire a person?
I don’t buy this. What will really happen is that the value of anything AI can produce will drop to near zero, this freeing up money to spend on things only humans can provide. And if you think AI can literally do anything a human can? Well at that point, using that AI should be incredibly illegal, as you’re just enslaving a digital person.
Maybe we’ll end up with a weird economy where everyone is employed as teachers, caretakers, mentors, life coaches, fitness instructors, physicians, and any other job that people really would prefer to interact with a human while interfacing with.
Would you let your child be taught by an AI teacher? Not worried about what type of sociopathy that might introduce? No, there are many jobs, specifically those around the growth, development, maintenance, and improvement of human lives that will always be preferable to be done by actual humans. Humans can do the human work, and we can slough the drudgery off to the machines.
I just have to pont out, If you have to have a job, you are working class. It doesn’t matter if it’s a well-paying automation job, you are still working class.
Technically yes, as there are many definitions. But practically, no. Tthe commonly accepted and popular definitions break down with the working class being those without college degrees, those who’se living expenses and day to day expenses is most if not all of their income, where another common definition specifically list unskilled labourers, artisans, outworkers, and factory workers as working class.
My understanding is that it’s more about where people get their wealth and income. Working class primarily gets it from labour. Middle class has a mix of capital and labour income. And upper class / capitalists get it mostly from capital.
Degrees and jobs align with those but don’t define them, as far as I understand it.
Then again in my mind the only distinction worth a damn is “contributor” and “parasite” and so we’re all working class and we should see ourselves as aligned against the individuals and families who have enough wealth that generations of them will never need to work a day in their lives.
Both arguments are valid. Less children, better education and growth perspectives = better humanity. And still there are some sick fucks down voting. Which shows how fucked we are.
Propaganda is a heck of a thing.
I mean yes, children should be an affordable option and please take my tax money to make it practically free. But also I think a lot more people don’t want children than is generally assumed it expected. Just lots of societal pressure pushing vulnerable people to make a decision that’s not necessarily in their best interest.
It’s a deeply felt personal choice, I don’t think people should be manipulated or pressured into it, only that the cost at the very least be at zero so that people can choose based on what matters, their own personal views, and not in their ability to pay for every aspect of a child’s life.
Let’s not pretend the GOP are doing it for the good of humanity…
I think this is where a lot of modern civilization is falling apart at. If you want population replacement and growth, you actually have to make it advantageous to have children, and at appropriate age for your society and culture.
For most of history it wasn’t advantageous to have children. People just didn’t have many options, and we were used to babies dying all the time so if we wanted any help in our old age we had to have enough to survive into adulthood.
Where do you base this information from?
E.g. people who had a farm or crafts/trade business usually had children to help and later take over the business. Having children to help at old age is mentioned by yourself.
Sounds quite advantageous to me. Especially when labor is more physically demanding or you need enough people to maintain security like for traders etc.
It’s the reason my grandfather is one of five brothers and seven kids in total. It’s the reason my great-grandfather was the eldest of seven, and my ex-MIL was one of 11 children. They lived on farms and it was a lot cheaper to force your kids to do work than to hire farmhands.
Wrong thread. Im drunk
Been there. What are you drinking? I’m sipping on some Bushmills Black (sherry cask). Got a bit project out today. Spent a year writing this beast:
What is a CKJ unified icograph? And why don’t you have any?
Chinese characters. Presumably they’re not Chinese, Japanese or Korean.
What is that software?
PDF Xchange! It’s fucking amazing. My work switched from Adobe because it does more and costs like $2 a licence vs $150 for Adobe
I think the 20-24 line is hinting at a bad economy.
35-39 maybe just barely made the cut before the start of the collapse. But generally i expect all of them to trend down in the long run
You just can’t hear that hint over the hint of the constant torment of the growing lower class
For real. Middle class was a low but comfortable bar back in 1987 when I was born. My parents went above and beyond having two incomes, one of them being a small business. I do essentially the same thing as my mom small business wise, and my wife makes arguably more than my old man dad, but the thought of doubling our starter home (or even moving out of it) just hasn’t crossed my mind.
And we also had kids about three years later on average than my folks did (though compared to my wife’s folks, about five years earlier).
The '90s were fucking awesome (except for the acid rain, shit had me spooked in first grade when they played the laser disc about it).
youd have to be pretty narcissistic to bring a child into the current environment
You’re getting downvoted, but I kinda agree with you. I think if someone is ready and has hope for the future, sure, it makes sense for them to have a kid. I think a lot of people are aware the world sucks and the future of that child may be uncertain/bleek, but many people have kids cause it’s “the next step” in adulting or THEY really want to be a parent. The obvious hope is that the future will figure it out. I would like to think most aren’t being overly selfish, just following the flow without actually putting the thought into it till the kiddo is already here.
My husband and I want kids, but the thought of bringing someone into this current world seems cruel from my perspective… Like, the kindest thing I could do for a future child of my own womb would be to just not have them. (Plus, ew pregnancy) We’ve been looking into adoption from foster care because those kiddos are already here and need a supportive home.
