The guy at the lever actually has the power to stop the trolley entirely.
But will they, that’s the question.
They have the ability to, but if they won’t, then we still end up with the same two choices. And if picking the other side won’t make them change their mind, then whatever they can do is irrelevant in a conversation about what will produce the best tangible outcome.
I reject and condemn any system that says I can only choose between two genocidal monsters. There is no redeeming value to be had.
Liberals before they vote: I need to vote, any action to save democracy must be taken
Liberals after they vote: Welp time to do nothing for the next four years, also if you disagree with the Democrat president you’re a threat to democracy and you hate freedom :3
And four years later they’ll vote for a democrat whose positions are eerily similar to those of the republicans today, because it’s the least bad option. Race to the bottom. Four years ago, republican anti-immigrant nonsense was ridiculed, and we laughed at the border wall shit. Now Harris is all for stronger borders, and Biden actually resumed building the wall. Four years ago we ridiculed Trump for “drill baby drill”, today Harris is pro fracking, as she explained in her recent town hall with undecided voters. The vote blue no matter who crowd is flushing their democracy down the toilet.
This is in an unbelievable reduction of the reality, but sure. I’d also love a citation on how Trump will be worse for Palestine. Unless you’re going to suggest something utterly outrageous like he’s going to nuke the whole planet or something, the situation is already a horrific genocide. Harris and Biden are already funding and arming the genociders. Trump has said this is also what he plans to do. His main argument against Harris vis a vis Palestinian genocide is that he’s better friends with Netanyahu.
One thing I’ve learned this election cycle is how few people have any knowledge of utilitarianism. Genocide is better than genocide+1. Not acting is a moral choice, and frequently a cowardly one.
Utilitarianism isn’t a great framework for decision making. It can be used to justify any number of atrocities. For example, if there is a minority which comprises 0.1% of the population, and 10% of the rest of the population hates that minority, and they would be happier if the minority had fewer rights, utilitarianism could be used to justify oppression of that minority, since the suffering of 0.1% of a group is eclipsed by the happiness of the 10%.
Me when I ignore state violence and genocide that happen under Dems. Maybe if we ask Dick Cheney nicely enough, he can get Harris to change her mind on policy.
TIFI
The way I see it is, if one side wins, the Left will not only have to worry about the Palestinians, but suddenly they’ll have to choose between protesting about all those other things AND it’ll be with a hostile government that will curtail civil rights and probably start committing abuses against US citizens.
If the other side wins, all those other issues become less of a danger and the Left can focus on keeping up the pressure on Democratic leadership to stop supporting Israel. It’s still not guaranteed, but it’s a much better chance than in the alternative world where out and out fascism takes over. Focus on what’s important, don’t needlessly add more problems on to the pile.
If you only feel safe if you enable a genocide, you’re a fascist in denial.
You’re an idiot.
At least I’m not a Nazi. Hope you’re never going to claim asylum when the genocide turns against you like it always does.
Man it’s getting downright gross how liberals are just so blasé about their acceptance of Palestinians being murdered.
It is really amazing to see a repeat of Weimar Germany going on. Next Harris just needs to appoint Steve Miller to some office and history will truly rhyme.
Liberals have proven yet again the difference between themselves and fascists is just aesthetics.
Man, it’s disappointing to see how uncreative FSB intelligence has become since China made Russia a vassal state.
Can’t you guys find something new to blame liberals for?
You can have this one for free, “liberals are so dumb that they’re going to elect a black woman as president and save American democracy for four more years!”
Libs are so inspirational with their memes about the inevitability of genocide.
Get out and participate in this system, yall!!! \s
inspirational with their memes about the inevitability of genocide.
Inspiration isn’t the point here. The point is to show how sitting by and doing nothing is worse. It’s an argument, not a fanfic.
Get out and participate in this system, yall!!! \s
The system is going to kill, and there is no chance that it is going to stop overnight. The least we can do is ensure it does the least amount of harm possible.
Not pulling the lever is not doing nothing, it’s making the best possible choice so that you can then make even better ones.
That “best possible choice” leads to more deaths and more suffering, therefore it isn’t the best possible choice.
It is the best possible choice for anyone that has any humanity.
Many Nazis literally believed that if they didn’t kill the Jews their lives would end. They would be killed, Germany would be destroyed etc.
Their trolley problem as framed is the same as this one. And you’re picking the same decision as the rank and file Nazis did, as the reluctant Nazis did.
The best possible choice is walking away from this false binary an so no everything possible outside this false binary to prevent either track from ever being viable.
Derail the trolley, burn it down, tear up the tracks, assassinate the conductor and workmen that laid the tracks. Anything is a better choice than choosing to do a genocide.
It is the best possible choice for anyone that has any humanity.
The human thing to do is reduce death and suffering as much as possible, which doesn’t mean doing nothing.
Many Nazis literally believed that if they didn’t kill the Jews their lives would end. They would be killed, Germany would be destroyed etc.
And that wasn’t true. You’re comparing an actual trolly problem with one that is based on falsehood. So this comparison is bullshit.
And you’re picking the same decision as the rank and file Nazis did, as the reluctant Nazis did.
I’m not voting for the nazi/gop party. You’ve got it backwards.
The best possible choice is walking away from this false binary an so no everything possible outside this false binary to prevent either track from ever being viable.
And in doing so that leads to more death and suffering.
Derail the trolley, burn it down, tear up the tracks, assassinate the conductor and workmen that laid the tracks. Anything is a better choice than choosing to do a genocide.
The whole point of the trolly problem is that the things in motion are on rails. It is intentionally set up to be a true dichotomy. Derailing the trolly/burning it down/etc aren’t really options that are on the table. By the time you’re able to derail it, it will have run over more people than if we had chosen to reduce harm.
With that said, I fully support actions like that where they are actually possible. You wanna go fuck up the trolly? Please do. But you’re a fool if you think that any such action is always an option, or even a quick option. The overwhelming majority of the population does not see this genocide for what it is, and instead they support Israel. The large scale change that we want to see here will never happen unless the majority change their opinion.
Your time would be better spent forcing the american/uk/canadian/etc public to see the horrors their governments are doing in their name, and show it to them against their will.
If we’re being real, it’s just Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRGC, and anyone unfortunate enough to be too close to those assholes on the bottom track.
Imagine believing this is what’s “real”.
Too close being defined as, in the same country.
Don’t be a journalist, or a first responder, because they seem to get special attention from Israel. Also Don’t be in a hospital or a school, because again, special attention.
Not that the “special attention” actually involves recon and targeting of individuals. No, it’s more a case of someone looking at a map and saying “well, that structure is still standing, so let’s blow it up”. The exception being journalists and first responders, whose locations are subject to recon for better targeting.
The current USA is the evil zombie USA. Has been for ~20 years.
In comic books it would have a thin mustache and inverted triangular soul patch.
The current USA is the founding fathers vision and the natural result of white suprmacist ideologies like imperialism and capitalism. There is no other possible USA that could have ever formed from the terrible human beings that designed it.
We have some very bad people; we have some sick people, radical-left lunatics. And it should be very easily handled, if necessary, by National Guard, or if really necessary, by the military, because they can’t let that happen.
- Donald Trump
“Oh, but I don’t actually go outside - so he doesn’t mean me,” he said communistly.
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
Just pull the lever and vote blue!
It is questioned, the trolley is that first past the post system you hear people complain about.
But at the same time you don’t just let the trolley do the maximum amount of crushing before it can be shut down for good.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency)
By the supreme court not the president.
The 3 Dissenting votes were exclusively from Democrat appointed judges from the Clinton and Obama years.
BLM?
Republicans are just objectively more hostile to BLM than Democrats.
Why does this meme depict the saving of abortion rights by voting for Harris (again)?
What “objective” measure implies Democrats are less hostile to BLM?
Black Americans somehow live with equality, let alone dignity, in Democrat-run cities?
Why does this meme depict the saving of abortion rights by voting for Harris (again)?
Because the more Democratic presidental terms there are the more nominees can reach the supreme court to overturn. Roe was overturned precisely because Republicans played that game of getting more judges on the bench
Additionally more dems in power increases the chance of a legislative victory on the issue
What “objective” measure implies Democrats are less hostile to BLM?
Listen to any Republican ever talk about BLM or make policy against “critical race theory” or “woke”.
Black Americans somehow live with equality, let alone dignity, in Democrat-run cities?
Blacks should see a widespread endorsement of genocide and conclude BLM is legitimate concern for establishment Democrats?
Why ignore this?
That isn’t me ignoring your point.
One of the parties declared open hostilities towards blm/crt/“woke” including via legislation. All of which they use to denounce black rights or history in some way.
On that measure Democrats are less hostile and it’s kind of the biggest one right now. You need to teach about the oppression to do anything about it
Remember to never question why such an orphan crushing trolley exists!
This is really the crux of every one of these arguments about Gaza-related voting decisions though.
The people saying vote Harris please because (see OP) are saying that because they consider the trolley as an unstoppable force. There is no spectrum of feasible action that involves stopping the trolley before it takes one of those two paths. There may be feasible action that involves getting rid of the trolley later, but not now.
The people saying ZOMG you are voting for genocide if you vote for Harris seem to be focused on the trolley and can’t believe we’re all worrying about lesser evils when the orphan crushing trolley is right fucking there.
I am not a member of this second group, but it seems to me that they think getting rid of the trolley before it takes one of those paths is possible. Or, they think destroying the trolley later necessarily involves sacrificing ALL those groups (on both tracks above) now.
Your framework believes all non-Palestinian-genocide issues would be fixed by pulling a lever.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Does it? Is “fixed” the only bar that matters, or is “better” not still valuable? What about simply “not actively getting worse”? Is there no value in taking the smallest of steps to keep things from getting actively worse, or even attempting to stop them from getting worse? Does that prevent you from taking bigger steps to work for a better world? Do you think unions, mass protests, and other means of systemic change will magically be easier under Hitler 2.0 than a Dem?
You’ve asked this other question like 4 times in this thread so far, you must really think it’s a gotcha.
Let’s imagine for a second that Harris and Trump are indistinguishable on the question of Gaza (they aren’t, but let’s pretend your fantasy reality exists for a moment). That would mean that any choice results in the same outcome. That makes that question a wash. Choosing to vote for Harris, Trump, or not vote all have the same outcome on that front. But what about the other issues that matter to people? Should we let abortion access get more difficult in the meantime? Should we let the party that doesn’t believe there are any issues with policing into power over the one that admits there’s an issue but hasn’t fixed it yet?
Your question is incredibly dumb, not only because you seem to think that something happening while X party is in power means that X party is responsible (someone never took a civics class and learned about SC appointments or the filibuster) but because it’s entirely possible for a party to be good on one issue and bad on another. The Dem establishment is wrong about Gaza, what the hell does that have to do with abortion? Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I don’t want to blame you for a difference in physical abilities that may exist, but are you looking at the same meme as me?
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
What about simply “not actively getting worse”?
Who says it’s not getting worse? A fellow Harris supporter celebrating “history” in Kalamazoo, where the gap between black and white homeownership is at its worst level in 50 years?:
https://lemmy.world/post/21294216
Why would they be bad on abortion and BLM just because they are bad on this issue?
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
A trolley problem format meme depicts the genocide of Palestinians on one track and the false equivalence of genocide to LGBT, BLM, and abortion on the other track.
It’s not a false equivalence, there is no equivalence argued for in the meme. It points out that genocide in Gaza will happen on either track, but only one of them will actively make things worse for other groups I care about also. It’s not calling them equivalent, in fact it’s arguing they are not equivalent which is why we have a moral obligation to keep It off the track with more people on it. At best, the outcome for Gaza is equivalent, but the outcome for others is not.
Who says it’s not getting worse?
Are you delusional enough to think that Trump and Harris will have identical outcomes for the other groups listed? Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better than a national abortion ban or anything else Trump (or really, the Heritage Foundation) wants.
I should explain why Democrats who endorse a genocide of brown people might be bad on BLM??
Ah yes, because Harris isn’t as anti genocide as we want, it’s totally logical to assume she would be in favor of black people dying more at the hands of police. Yes, that totally follows. And definitely the best option to improve policing is to let Trump be in charge. He will totally not work to make things worse.
You believe Harris has somehow preserved abortion rights and that others are delusional?
Even if Harris doesn’t “fix” those issues, preventing them from getting worse is better than allowing them to get worse. No improvement on abortion access is objectively better
A person who made their career out of imprisoning mostly black and brown men should be somehow seen as strongly against “black people dying more at the hands of police”?
I love that you cut off the quote mid sentence, conveniently leaving out the part that would have answered your dumbass question. No improvement to abortion access is objectively better than working to make things worse. If those are the only two options, we all have a moral obligation to keep things from getting worse.
You’re the one who implied it was the Dems fault because it happened while they were in power. Harris isn’t president and so couldn’t have done anything either way for abortion. But she certainly hasn’t made them worse and is not in favor of making abortion access more difficult. Trump, on the other hand, will actively work to make them worse.
I’m sorry, what is Harris’ stated position in BLM vs Trump’s? Which one of them said “please don’t be too nice” to them while talking to cops about suspects? Which one of them sent DHS to black-bag protestors during BLM again?
Even if more people die on the bottom track than are shown in the drawing, it will still be true that no one dies on the bottom who isn’t also dying on the top, and that more people in total die on the top. (IMO, and I think in the opinion of the first group of people I described.)
If the folks who don’t want to vote Harris due to Gaza are doing so for some reason other than what I outlined above, I’d love to hear it. Because if they aren’t trying to get rid of the Trolley than why the fuck would they be taking action that increases the chance of the trolley going to the top track?
Weird to repeat myself, since the original words are there. Let’s see if you ignore the point again:
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
I skipped over it because it’s practically a non-sequitur, and it’s nearly the same argument as Trump vs Harris on Gaza. You’ve got the party that might do something good and you’ve got the party that definitely will do nothing good, and you have no other viable option. Not a difficult choice at that point, for me.
So the last time you pulled the lever for Harris, Democrats solved all non-Palestinian-genocide related issues?
It’s dumb of me to question your lever pulling logic?
It’s dumb of me to question your lever pulling logic?
No, but it’s pretty disingenuous to suggest that either all problems must have been solved or else I should make a choice that might let Trump in.
I’m not here to shame anyone for how they are voting, and don’t really care what you think of my “lever puling logic” - I was trying to get at the heart of your trolley analogy.
And yes, it’s exactly as stated - you are very focused on the Trolley, while I consider it an unstoppable force at this time. All the rest of our “argument” is just restating that difference more explicitly.
If only we could do more than one thing at once. Like pull the lever for blue because it is incredibly easy but also work on the task of getting rid of the trolley.
Do the easy thing first, leave the hard thing for tomorrow (never).
The hard thing gets even harder if we don’t do the easy thing.
If you believe mindlessly endorsing genocide is the easy thing, we have little in common.
If democrats as a group broadly endorse the genocide of Palestinians, how can they still be taken seriously regarding issues like abortion (rights ended during Dem presidency) and BLM?
Congrats, you’ve intentionally missed the point. Thanks for trying though.
Not everyone has the capacity to engage with hard questions.
Not that you tried anyway.
Not that you tried anyway.
Bullshit.
It sounds like you believe most people who identify as Democrats are actively rooting for the horrifyingly high number of Palestinian deaths, in the tens of thousands, to progress to the millions. Is that an accurate description of your viewpoint? If so, are there some key things that made you start believing that?
Just for criticizing Harris, her supporters have called for me to be put in a concentration camp. What makes you believe Democrats have no capacity for fascism?
I believe all humans, Democrats included, have capacity for fascism.
Do you believe most Democrats are actively rooting for most of the millions of Palestinians to be killed?
If you don’t believe that strategic voting is critical to achieving what are inherently long term goals, then we have little in common.
we have little in common
Yes, I did say that.
Democrats nominating a war monger was a sign of high minded strategy?
- her position wrt Israel and Palestine wasn’t clear when she was nominated (though I don’t think it was all that hard to anticipate, but here we are); (2) the upcoming vote isn’t for her nomination to the democratic ticket, is it?
No one is saying they don’t wish the practical reality in which we live was better, but we are looking at two realistic choices right now. One choice will not only greatly worsen the situation and almost undoubtedly lead to more suffering and death in the Levant, it is also quite literally the highly preferred choice by Netanyahu. The other has in the past, before soliciting as many US votes as possible, at least displayed a willingness to criticize the Israeli government and modulate US policies regarding it. So I dunno what to tell you. At the end of the day, I’m pro-Palestinians not being murdered, and could give a fuck about signaling on social media, so I make practical choices to facilitate my as-many-Palestinians-as-possible-not-being-murdered preference. Maybe you don’t have that in common with me.
If you squeeze your eyes shut tight enough, the trolley will just disappear
No need to squeeze your eyes to watch Palestinians just disappear right?
And your solution is… to let the trolley roll over them anyway while feeling morally superior. Unless you have some plan of removing the trolley before January, you are choosing to let it crush them anyway. Choosing to not vote or pull the lever is also a choice that you will have to live with and one that requires moral justification.
Not everyone is capable of comprehending a nuanced and complex solution.
You offer no evidence of any capacity to question the contrivance of a despicable “problem.”
“I don’t have any moral responsibility because I believe the trolley shouldn’t exist in the first place.” Totally nuanced and not completely missing the point of the analogy at all. If only everyone knew we could just magically make the trolley disappear we could have skipped over the decades of philosophy written about the trolley problem because the solution is so easy!
I mean you said those words, no need to beat yourself up cause you have a little straw on your face.
What are you, 5? “I know you are but what am I?”
In other words, op is proud and open about their willingness to sacrifice Palestinian lives in order to preserve their own comfort and safety under the status quo.
Anyone who can look at this meme and not only see one option as acceptable, but be proud of this depiction of how “right” they are (in their own minds) to pick the “lesser” (but still) evil, is the embodiment of “scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds”.
All to avoid having to do any more than the bare fucking minimum that is voting in this theatre, and getting their pat on the back for being brave antifascists (lmmfao, only in their own minds, of course).
I get what you mean, but I think the point behind this image is not to say that doing what you call the “bare minimum” is enough, but to try and get more people to actually do that bare minimum.
In other words, op is proud and open about their willingness to sacrifice Palestinian lives in order to preserve their own comfort and safety under the status quo.
Don’t worry - the Terminally Online Leftists will change their tune from “It won’t change the election” to “If Palestine gets genocided by Israel, it’s only fair minorities in the US are genocided too”.
what is the opinion of the hamas and fatah spokesperson for lgbtq on this matter?
No amount of whataboutism in the world will cancel out the fact that both parties are actively supporting genocide, no matter how much you wish it did to make yourself feel better about your poor choices ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
care to explain?
is that the whataboutism that just thinks of palestine and downplays ukraine, sudan, syria and the other genocides? or is that the whataboutism that pretends there is just one muslim movemwnt that is not facist? my aramaic friends from syria always say the sooner palestine is ashes, the sooner we have peace. they really really want their land back like the armenias that fell in the muslim turkish genocide. so fuck palestine any time. any time! nobody should feel obliged to support palestine if none in palestine supports the human values. look at the amnesty international report for 2023…reason enough to drop the idea of a free palestine. read what scum like Mahmoud Zahar said…the killing of lgbtq, women etc… fuck humas. fuck palestine.
This is one of the most utterly disgusting things I have ever read in my entire life. You are repulsive. You should be in prison for saying these things. You are living proof that true evil is possible for humans.
Do not bring queer people and women into your calls for genocide. You do not speak for us and have no right to invoke us in open calls for the mass slaughter of, among everyone else, queer people and women and children.
I keep trying to explain this to people, maybe this graphic will work.
According to the comments here it didn’t work.
The philosophical position is that if they pull the lever, they become personally responsible for the resulting deaths. If they don’t pull the lever, that’s sad so many people die, but it’s the responsibility of the people running the train and who tied all those groups to the tracks. They have no personal blame in that case.
It’s not an intuitive position to many of us, but philosophers take it seriously.
