It is scientific fact; at least every major medical organization in the US is in total agreement about what you refer to as āgender ideology,ā and what we call the existence of trans people.
āJust asking questionsā about it is as disingenuous and false as ājust asking questionsā about evolution. If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnāt feel the need to ask these questions.
But yes, the founder chose anti-trans concerns above trans concerns. LGBT people will leave and the platform will become a conservative circlejerk. You have that part right at least.
If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnāt feel the need to ask these questions.
I donāt agree. I have A LOT of questions about gender identity to which I canāt hypothesize answers because as a cis/het person I have no idea what it means and what it feels like being transgender, and I grew up in a time and a place where nobody ever talked about gender identity. The only way I can educate myself is by asking questions. Now I know a lot of people in the LGBTQ community are kinda fed up answering this kind of questions, and with good reason (cf. the ājust asking questionsā posture of anti-trans people). But some of us are being honest at just asking questions.
Those arenāt the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about ātrans/gender ideology isnāt scientific factā shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is ājust asking questionsā to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
Gender ideology is not scientific fact. Gender as it is now know has literally no basis in science. Sex is biological reality. Gender is now a āfeelingā.
Thatās disingenuous and your own link doesnāt support what you are saying. The link demonstrates that gender to refer to self-identity is both recent and an artificial distinction. The science behind transgenderism is far from settled as much as people would like it to be. We donāt even know what causes it.
Oh noā¦ it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. Thereās no āartificial distinction;ā science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We donāt know what causes most cancers either. That doesnāt mean they canāt be studied scientifically.
I didnāt say it shouldnāt be scientifically studied. It definitely should be, especially the extremely high rates of comorbid mental illnesses in trans/non-binary people.
The article you linked states that gender is now commonly considered a social construct rather than tied to your biological sex. They are making the distinction so that there is no confusion when reading their papers.
The science is not settled, they are conceding that the common use of the term now has a different meaning than it did in the past.
The science is indeed settled. Asserting once again itās not or that trans/nb people are mentally ill is both scientifically inaccurate and morally wrong. Unless, of course, you have literally any source claiming otherwise?
Your own link say says that gender is a social construct now. Theyāre saying that there is literally no science involved, there is no basis in scientific fact there.
Thatās not āscientific factā. For something to be scientific fact it has to have scientific facts supporting it.
From that article:
In the study of human subjects, the term gender should be used to refer to a personās self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individualās gender presentation.
āself representationā is how you feel. Itās a feeling. Thatās not scientific fact. Going āwe acknowledge that society now treats gender as a new thing separate to sexā isnāt the same as it being a scientifically proven fact.
Iām really not seeing the logic here, so called āfeelingsā are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time. Is hunger not a feeling? Same thing with self-representation. Those arenāt nebulous concepts. Those are well-established scientific facts. Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
So why are there people changing their āgender identityā multiple times a day?
so called āfeelingsā are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time
Show me a scientific study that has found any existence whatsoever of āgender identityā through science. The very article linked here says itās a social construct. Social constructs are not āscientific factsā.
Youāve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person youāre responding to means isnāt scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people Iāve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
Thatās a currently āunallowed to challengeā topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but hereās the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
Thereās no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. Itās not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me itās an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
The current gender/trans ideology isnāt just scientific fact that has to be followed and believed.
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about āgender/trans ideology.ā
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond āwell what about Black people in sports? What about white athletesā feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?ā The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. Whatās so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. Itās a league thatās sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like Iām bashing womenās sports, but Iām not. Iām glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldnāt be opening that up to those who donāt have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just donāt think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? Iām not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, thatās never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible,
I agree, but I think sports falls under ānot possibleā because they donāt meet the requirements for the womenās league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I donāt think they should be competing in womenās sports, itās unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, letās just get rid of womenās sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women arenāt equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Letās just get rid of all womenās sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
Iām fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnāt been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just donāt think sports matters more than peoplesā rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iām fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnāt been for years.
So you are for getting rid of womenās sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
But ultimately I just donāt think sports matters more than peoplesā rights.
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iām fine with that.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think itās great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldnāt really be women in sports.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, thatās legal in an open to everyone category. Womenās sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who donāt take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, thatās your grave to dig.
Race isnāt the same as gender, Iām hoping you realize that. In todayās world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canāt choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, donāt try to compete in leagues you donāt qualify for. Womenās sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
So you are for getting rid of womenās sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so theyāve already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
even if some races had an advantage, thatās legal in an open to everyone category
The point is it didnāt used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had āhigher muscle densityā and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the āopen to everyone categories.ā Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didnāt matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyoneās decided thatās okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
In todayās world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canāt choose to be black as a white person.
Gender is not āmore a state of mind than anything else,ā any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they arenāt pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldnāt hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine ābut what about fairness in sports?ā
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the āproblemā itself.
The NFL isnāt a male league for example - itās an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didnāt come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best womenās soccer player on earth, wouldnāt even get close to making a menās pro team. The world beating womenās USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
The issue isnāt just that they might win, itās that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you donāt see how thatās not fair I donāt know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that donāt mesh with gender identity politics, and thereās no way around that.
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women canāt naturally get?
Youāre right, itās not vague at all - itās not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isnāt an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. Youāre jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you donāt agree with, and currently the āthatās transphobic!ā line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you donāt have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of āwhatās so wrong with trans women winning womenās sporting eventsā says it all. āWho cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.ā
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked manā¦ā¦instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the womenās records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the menās division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the āprogressivesā that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
Why do you guys always always jump straight to āyouāre trying to deny trans people existā? No one is saying trans people donāt exist. people are, however, opposed to people telling preschoolers that if they like stereotypical opposite sex things that theyāre trans and should choose a new name and wear the other genders stereotypical clothes. Itās indoctrination.
If a kid still believes in Santa clause, telling them theyāre trans and giving them praise and letting them choose their own name etc is forcing your ideology on them. They donāt know any better. All they know is an adult is telling them something so it must be true. Again - they believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy. They donāt have the mental capacity to understand these things. They donāt have the mental capacity to be making permanent life altering decisions.
This whole ājust asking questionsā bullshit is just a way the āprogressivesā try to weaponise anyone questioning their beliefs and ideologies.
If lgbtq people canāt stand seeing people have different opinions to them then they should leave. They shouldnāt be trying to get everyone else banned.
This is totally nonsense. No one is āindoctrinatingā childrenā¦ except those who claim that children canāt be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you canāt deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youāre the one that should get out. We frankly donāt need you.
No one is āindoctrinatingā childrenā¦ except those who claim that children canāt be trans.
When people say this they mean that children donāt have the mental capacity to make that life changing decision. Again - kids believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy. They are extremely easily influenced and will believe what their parents tell them to a fault. If you tell a kid theyāre trans because they like the colour pink as a boy or blue as a girl, theyāre gonna believe you. That is the indoctrination people are talking about.
Are there kids that actually have gender dysphoria? Sure. Theyāre the extreme minority of the kids that are currently trans though, because they donāt even understand gender let alone āgender identityā. Even teenagers arenāt mentally developed enough to be making life altering decisions, which is why we donāt let under 18 year olds get tattoos, drink, vote, etc. If you accept that these restrictions need to be in place for children, how can you be ok with giving them life altering drugs and surgeries?
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit.
Sighā¦thereās the usual ātransphobicā type dismissal/attack used to try and stop any and all discussion of differing viewpoints.
If you canāt deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youāre the one that should get out. We frankly donāt need you.
I can deal with LGBT people, I have no issues with them at all as Iāve said many times. Iāve explained why I donāt, and what I do have problems with. Ironic that you say āWe frankly donāt need you.ā because if that were true you wouldnāt be constantly trying to force your beliefs on me.
It is scientific fact; at least every major medical organization in the US is in total agreement about what you refer to as āgender ideology,ā and what we call the existence of trans people.
āJust asking questionsā about it is as disingenuous and false as ājust asking questionsā about evolution. If you truly believe trans people exist and deserve to be respected you wouldnāt feel the need to ask these questions.
But yes, the founder chose anti-trans concerns above trans concerns. LGBT people will leave and the platform will become a conservative circlejerk. You have that part right at least.
I donāt agree. I have A LOT of questions about gender identity to which I canāt hypothesize answers because as a cis/het person I have no idea what it means and what it feels like being transgender, and I grew up in a time and a place where nobody ever talked about gender identity. The only way I can educate myself is by asking questions. Now I know a lot of people in the LGBTQ community are kinda fed up answering this kind of questions, and with good reason (cf. the ājust asking questionsā posture of anti-trans people). But some of us are being honest at just asking questions.
Those arenāt the kinds of questions the OP was talking about; their dogwhistle about ātrans/gender ideology isnāt scientific factā shows that they are indeed the kind of anti-trans person who is ājust asking questionsā to harass trans people.
If you have legitimate questions there are many excellent resources on the Internet and even in Lemmy itself where LGBTQ people will be happy to chat with you, if you approach them in a respectful manner :)
Gender ideology is not scientific fact. Gender as it is now know has literally no basis in science. Sex is biological reality. Gender is now a āfeelingā.
Iām happy to inform you that gender is also a scientific fact: https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/ It literally has a basis in science and you can both study it and perform science on it!
Thatās disingenuous and your own link doesnāt support what you are saying. The link demonstrates that gender to refer to self-identity is both recent and an artificial distinction. The science behind transgenderism is far from settled as much as people would like it to be. We donāt even know what causes it.
Oh noā¦ it does say exactly that and the science is indeed settled. Thereās no āartificial distinction;ā science says gender and sex are indeed different. Unless of course you can link a reputable scientific organization that disagrees with that overwhelming consensus?
We donāt know what causes most cancers either. That doesnāt mean they canāt be studied scientifically.
I didnāt say it shouldnāt be scientifically studied. It definitely should be, especially the extremely high rates of comorbid mental illnesses in trans/non-binary people.
The article you linked states that gender is now commonly considered a social construct rather than tied to your biological sex. They are making the distinction so that there is no confusion when reading their papers.
The science is not settled, they are conceding that the common use of the term now has a different meaning than it did in the past.
The science is indeed settled. Asserting once again itās not or that trans/nb people are mentally ill is both scientifically inaccurate and morally wrong. Unless, of course, you have literally any source claiming otherwise?
I thought not.
Your own link say says that gender is a social construct now. Theyāre saying that there is literally no science involved, there is no basis in scientific fact there.
Thatās not āscientific factā. For something to be scientific fact it has to have scientific facts supporting it.
From that article:
āself representationā is how you feel. Itās a feeling. Thatās not scientific fact. Going āwe acknowledge that society now treats gender as a new thing separate to sexā isnāt the same as it being a scientifically proven fact.
Iām really not seeing the logic here, so called āfeelingsā are scientific facts and we do studies on them all the time. Is hunger not a feeling? Same thing with self-representation. Those arenāt nebulous concepts. Those are well-established scientific facts. Gender is an important part of self-representation and from all indications, one people have very little control over.
So why are there people changing their āgender identityā multiple times a day?
Show me a scientific study that has found any existence whatsoever of āgender identityā through science. The very article linked here says itās a social construct. Social constructs are not āscientific factsā.
Youāve really jumped deep into things by assuming what the person youāre responding to means isnāt scientific fact is the actual existence of trans people. They could, but they were woefully vague.
Most people Iāve interacted with who have misgivings are more focused on things like the insistence that there are no differences between afab and amab bodies, and therefore trans women athletes should be allowed to compete against afab athletes.
Thatās a currently āunallowed to challengeā topic that pretty much immediately gets you labelled transphobic, but hereās the rub: female athletes doping with testosterone to achieve higher muscle mass is something that is banned from sports competitions, so why does it matter whether it was artificially obtained via pill or naturally by the fact that they had years of body and muscle development as male before transistioning?
Thereās no good solution to this problem, but the fact that anyone who brings it up gets labelled as transphobic is ridiculous. Itās not inherently denying trans people anything to discuss it (that has more to do with the person discussing it than the topic itself). For me itās an attempt to ensure that all female athletes afab trans or other are on an even playing field, ideally so people have less excuse to easily dismiss trans athlete achievements.
I donāt think this is vague in the slightest:
I know no person interested in trans liberation that also talks about āgender/trans ideology.ā
I find sports misgivings a red herring with regards to trans liberation. To me, it feels like asking someone to be less racist, and hearing them respond āwell what about Black people in sports? What about white athletesā feelings? How do we determine if an athlete is white enough to compete against other whites?ā The entire notion is wrong-headed to begin with. Yes, if we include trans people in sports, sometimes they might win. Whatās so bad about trans people winning at sports?
In any case, clearly the person I was responding to was not talking about this.
Here is the thing when it comes to sports, there are usually two main divisions in most sports, the best of the best league, and the women league. In most sports there is technically no rule against women playing in the best of the best leagues, but they are just at so much of a disadvantage it is almost unheard of for them to be able to compete at that level. The only reason that women only sports exist is to allow people with that biological disadvantage to compete professionally against others with the same disadvantage. Itās a league thatās sole purpose is to allow women to be competitive against other women because the men are just so much better.
It might sound like Iām bashing womenās sports, but Iām not. Iām glad women have an avenue to compete at pro levels, because without women only sports they would not.
I have no problem with anybody trying to compete in the best of the best league, men, women, trans, black, white, etc. But when it comes to leagues specifically limited to give those in the league a fair competition, we shouldnāt be opening that up to those who donāt have the disadvantage that defines the league. This applies to women leagues, the special Olympics, and other limited leagues.
I know this, I just donāt think it matters. Our a priori assumption must be trans people should be included everywhere as much as possible, just like Black people or Jewish people. Fairness will adjust to our expectations, so everything will feel fine in the end, just as it did when we allowed other minorities to compete in leagues they were formerly barred from.
How can it not matter? You have a sport built around the idea of fair competition to a genetic physical weakness, and you think we should just throw that all away? Iām not sure why you are bringing race and nationality into this discussion, thatās never been a race based disadvantage that we decided we needed to design sports around.
I agree, but I think sports falls under ānot possibleā because they donāt meet the requirements for the womenās league. I have no problem with a trans league, or they are more than welcome to compete in the best of the best league. I donāt think they should be competing in womenās sports, itās unfair to all biological women athletes who compete against other biological women athletes.
And if you want to compare it to race, where the idea of a race segregated sport would be super controversial, letās just get rid of womenās sports all together. Women are equal to men, right? They can do anything a man can do, right? What are we pretending women arenāt equal by putting them in their own sports leagues? Letās just get rid of all womenās sports, let them compete directly with the men, and may the best win.
Iām fine sorting people by weight classes or hormone levels. But gender is not a useful way to do that and hasnāt been for years. The Olympics, for example, tests your hormone levels and not what your natal sex was or what your genitals look like.
But ultimately I just donāt think sports matters more than peoplesā rights. So if we have to abolish gendered sports, especially below the ultra-professional level, Iām fine with that.
And yes, people did indeed claim certain races had advantages in sports and pointed to science about muscle density to support their theories. They would consider themselves well-justified by Black people dominating certain sports. It is the same with trans athletes.
So you are for getting rid of womenās sports, special Olympics, and everything in that realm and just letting everyone compete as people of the human race?
What rights? There is no right to compete in stuff you are not eligible for.
So you are fine with women essentially never being competitive in sports? Personally I think itās great they have their own league, because otherwise there wouldnāt really be women in sports.
Except that they are competing in the open to everyone category, even if some races had an advantage, thatās legal in an open to everyone category. Womenās sports are not open to everyone, only to biological females who donāt take performance enhancing substances. Again, if you want to essentially remove women from sports by pretending biological males and females are the same, thatās your grave to dig.
Race isnāt the same as gender, Iām hoping you realize that. In todayās world, gender is more a state of mind than anything else, race is not. I can choose to become the opposite gender, I canāt choose to be black as a white person.
If trans athletes want to compete in sports, compete in the open to everyone league, donāt try to compete in leagues you donāt qualify for. Womenās sports, if they are to still exist, are for biological and non testosterone taking females only.
As I said, below the ultra-professional level, yes. Inside the ultra-professional level, gender tests are already not used to differentiate people into competition categories so theyāve already solved this problem. Read what I said in my previous post.
The point is it didnāt used to be. This was because people had research at the time showing that Black people had āhigher muscle densityā and other nonsense pseudoscience that they used to bar them from the āopen to everyone categories.ā Which, at the time, were not open to everyone, but only white people.
Since you are just not understanding this: the same arguments used to prevent Black people from competing (they would dominate certain sports, their inclusion would make white people feel bad, their existence is basically the same as taking performance enhancing substances) are literally the same ones used to prevent trans people from competing. We decided those problems didnāt matter, and now, yes, Black people do win in certain sporting fields more. But everyoneās decided thatās okay.
Literally the same thing will happen with trans people. I know you have this weirdly deep-seated need to believe in the fairness of sports, but fairness is a construction we apply to sports, not something inherent in them naturally. If we include trans people as much as possible, it will still feel fair, even if trans people (gasp) even sometimes win.
Gender is not āmore a state of mind than anything else,ā any more than sex (or race) is. Trans people are their actual genders, they arenāt pretending to be a man or woman for the day, any more than a Black person is pretending to be a white person or vice versa.
Frankly, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, the entire sports argument is stupid though. The rights of an entire minority (yes, their rights) shouldnāt hinge on whether or not they can compete in sporting events, and every time trans liberation is brought up people whine ābut what about fairness in sports?ā
You should find other stuff to care about, because the amount of trans athletes is vanishingly small and the amount of ink spilled on debating their inclusion with sports totally out-of-proportion to the āproblemā itself.
Exactly.
The NFL isnāt a male league for example - itās an open league. How many women have ever even made it to the tryout stage? One. A kicker. She didnāt come close to making even a training squad.
Sam Kerr, the best womenās soccer player on earth, wouldnāt even get close to making a menās pro team. The world beating womenās USA team, winners of the past 2 world cups, got annihilated by an under 15s boys team.
Sex matters in sport, not gender.
The issue isnāt just that they might win, itās that they will naturally dominate in competitions where biological makeup matters.
If you donāt see how thatās not fair I donāt know what to tell you. There are hard rules in biology that donāt mesh with gender identity politics, and thereās no way around that.
Fair to whom?
Lots of people were worried about Black people dominating certain sports. And, as it turns out, Black people do dominate certain sports. Is that unfair to white people?
No. People are just different. Fairness adjusts and we get over it.
So too here.
How do biological women adapt to someone like Lia Thomas? Are they just going to magically all just grow another foot in height and increase their bone density and muscle mass to levels that women canāt naturally get?
Youāre right, itās not vague at all - itās not denying trans people exist in any way. Trans people existing isnāt an ideology, so questioning the current trans and gender ideology has nothing to do with trans people existing or not. Youāre jumping to conclusions because you want to dismiss any opinion you donāt agree with, and currently the āthatās transphobic!ā line is basically a get out of jail free card in that way. Just call someone transphobic and get them banned so you donāt have to have your opinion challenged, create that echo chamber you want so badly.
Your response to the sports issue of āwhatās so wrong with trans women winning womenās sporting eventsā says it all. āWho cares about biological women, the feelings of trans women matter more.ā
Trans women can compete with men. If there is no physical or biological advantage for males then why do they need to compete with the women? They can compete with the men and should do just fine.
Lia Thomas is all that needs to be pointed out for why your ideology here is wrong. 500+ ranked manā¦ā¦instantly #1 ranked woman. Breaks all the womenās records. Where are the trans men swimmers dominating the menās division in swimming? Or in track and field? Cycling? Anywhere at all?!
Bingo.
No one denies trans people exist, but this is how the āprogressivesā that want males competing with females in sport and using female-only services frame any and all questioning of their ideology and motives.
Why do you guys always always jump straight to āyouāre trying to deny trans people existā? No one is saying trans people donāt exist. people are, however, opposed to people telling preschoolers that if they like stereotypical opposite sex things that theyāre trans and should choose a new name and wear the other genders stereotypical clothes. Itās indoctrination.
If a kid still believes in Santa clause, telling them theyāre trans and giving them praise and letting them choose their own name etc is forcing your ideology on them. They donāt know any better. All they know is an adult is telling them something so it must be true. Again - they believe in Santa clause and the tooth fairy. They donāt have the mental capacity to understand these things. They donāt have the mental capacity to be making permanent life altering decisions.
This whole ājust asking questionsā bullshit is just a way the āprogressivesā try to weaponise anyone questioning their beliefs and ideologies.
If lgbtq people canāt stand seeing people have different opinions to them then they should leave. They shouldnāt be trying to get everyone else banned.
This is totally nonsense. No one is āindoctrinatingā childrenā¦ except those who claim that children canāt be trans. I would encourage you to swallow your pride and your preconceived notions and actually talk to trans people, many of whom report knowing exactly who they were at the first age they were aware of gender.
Anyway, the rest of your point is basically hateful bullshit. If you canāt deal with LGBT people and our opinions, youāre the one that should get out. We frankly donāt need you.
When people say this they mean that children donāt have the mental capacity to make that life changing decision. Again - kids believe in santa clause, the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy. They are extremely easily influenced and will believe what their parents tell them to a fault. If you tell a kid theyāre trans because they like the colour pink as a boy or blue as a girl, theyāre gonna believe you. That is the indoctrination people are talking about.
Are there kids that actually have gender dysphoria? Sure. Theyāre the extreme minority of the kids that are currently trans though, because they donāt even understand gender let alone āgender identityā. Even teenagers arenāt mentally developed enough to be making life altering decisions, which is why we donāt let under 18 year olds get tattoos, drink, vote, etc. If you accept that these restrictions need to be in place for children, how can you be ok with giving them life altering drugs and surgeries?
Sighā¦thereās the usual ātransphobicā type dismissal/attack used to try and stop any and all discussion of differing viewpoints.
I can deal with LGBT people, I have no issues with them at all as Iāve said many times. Iāve explained why I donāt, and what I do have problems with. Ironic that you say āWe frankly donāt need you.ā because if that were true you wouldnāt be constantly trying to force your beliefs on me.