A Georgia school board voted along party lines Thursday to fire a teacher after officials said she improperly read a book on gender fluidity to her fifth grade class.
A Georgia school board voted along party lines Thursday to fire a teacher after officials said she improperly read a book on gender fluidity to her fifth grade class.
I just don’t understand why 5th graders should even be exposed to that that early. For kids that haven’t even gone through puberty yet I think gender identity is a pretty mature topic, and I don’t think I’d want a teacher being the one to discuss it with my child.
And before someone says that I just want to suppress the info keeping it out of school, what about the flip side where a nut job teacher decides 2 genders is part of the lesson plan?
Edit: Never been so dogpiled about a comment before. In MY OPINION I just think 5th grade is too early. According to the hive mind I am wrong.
I also get nervous having government agencies (schools) involved with anything lgbtq+. We all know the government and our courts always side with the compassionate and accepting side. And would never suppress people’s rights. /S
Some of you are out of control, I never thought that comment would cause people to assume my gender, orientation, political affiliation, hell one of you assumed my race (wtf)
5th grade seems like an appropriate time to start educating students about this as part of their health curriculum. That’s the grade when they gave us the puberty talk in my old school district.
Some early bloomers absolutely start puberty during or before 5th grade.
For people outside the US how old would 5th graders actually be?
11 usually
That seems like a perfectly reasonable age to introduce a person to a topic like puberty.
Like I’m pretty sure I was taught the basics of it and what it does to your body when I was that age.
Isn’t that a bit late to be starting basic health education? For girls, that’s above the average age of beginning puberty and for both, it’s years after the cutoff for it being consider precocious.
It is a bit late, but for what it’s worth, we started the puberty lessons at 10 years old and I was one of the older kids in class. Most were 9.
Nowadays a lot of girls at that age already menstruate. It is not only appropriate, you might even argue it is a tad late.
Maybe it’s just how I was raised or taught, sex ed didn’t start till 7th/8th grade for me, and looking back seemed like an appropriate age to me.
But this isn’t sex ed. Discussing gender doesn’t mean discussing having sex.
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Of course I’m not an expert, that’s why I’m on this site having a discussion. Wasn’t aware being an expert was required to comment here.
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Notice how i didn’t say, “And thats the age it should stay” i said to me it SEEMED appropriate, that is my opinion, I never claimed my life experience should dictate how all children should be taught. Im not arguing in bad faith, merely expanding on where my thoughts and opinions come from.
The teacher was fired for teaching gender theory, not sex education. Those are very different things and I suspect you know that.
Yes they are two different things but they are related. Puberty can be devastating to a child who isn’t comfortable with their body. In some cases puberty blockers are prescribed to delay the physical changes for children with gender disphoria. So educating gender identity along with puberty isn’t a bad idea.
And yes, some children do start questioning their gender before they start puberty.
But this is all speculative. We don’t know what the context for this teacher reading the book, but calling it inappropriate for their age is wrong.
I think it’s wrong. Gender theory is pretty radical. It has no factual basis. Reinforcing delusions is universally destructive in psychology. As long as those delusions aren’t reinforced, most kids reconcile without intervention. This study found that only 37% of children still identified as dysphoric five years later. This study found that 88% had desisted (they were no longer dysphoric). This mirrors other historical research into various areas of child psychology. Children frequently change identity and beliefs around identity.
As for puberty blockers, they don’t just delay puberty. They also have devastating side effects, including osteoporosis and diabetes. That is why puberty blockers for gender dysphoria have now been banned in Sweden, the United Kingdom, and other European nations.
This topic is rather personal to me, so I’ve researched it to the best of my abilities. I’m happy to concede this isn’t settled science, but must reinforce that this isn’t settled science. It’s not clear that affirmation is beneficial, and in fact, research indicates the opposite.
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Google tells me that NYRAG stands for the New York Regional Association of Grantmakers. I’m sorry but I don’t understand how that relates.
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You think the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the Front Psychiatry journal, and the Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry are “Russian and Conservative propaganda”?
Lol.
My sister “knew” she was trans when she was around 8. Granted, we didn’t have the terminology back then so…
That being said, how is it a “mature” topic? We teach children the concept of “this boy” and “this girl” much earlier than that. And I’m confused how the concept has anything to do with puberty either.
Same with my younger sibling. It was very obvios early in their life, but we didn’t had words for it either. Didn’t understand and didn’t took it that serious.
I had my period with 11 years, but suffered till i was 30. Cause it was a tabu to talk about that. I need to Suffer, i was told. BS.
It is crucial to give kids knowledge that they are not wrong. That they are not weird. That they know everything is okay and their parents are here guiding them. AND they need to know that other people are not weird so they can learn empathy.
Said it in another thread on this:
I’m trans.
I figured it out, literally in the fifth grade.
It’s not too early. It’s not too hard. It’s not bad for them. Not having proper knowledge of things has made my life harder and worse than it had to be. If you want to help kids, teaching them things is how you do that. Hiding things from them hurts trans kids, and it makes it easier for predators to predate on kids. If you want to hurt kids, that’s on you, but say it with your fuckin’ chest. Don’t hide behind this line that you know is false.
Oh, and re nutjob teachers:
We teach evolution in school, because the data backs it. We don’t teach creationism in school, because the data doesn’t back it. It’s not that hard, this argument is pointless chaff.
As someone who grew up on the home school christian cult side of things.
I’ve done the abstinence only teaching, to the point I was in my teens and thought all girls had a penis.
Ya, ya, laugh it up.
Only thing I can say is, it doesn’t work, it never did. Once body changes start happening kids have tons of questions and when the answer to those questions is “Do nothing”, that’s not going to be enough.
Especially when we grow up in a society that encourages asking questions and giving answers. Until it gets into this one topic.
“I’m privileged enough to have been born cis and straight in this cis-heteronormative world where my gender and sexuality have been openly discussed and supported (if not enforced) since birth, but when those who are trans and/or gay want to talk openly about how they’ve also known their gender and orientation for just as long, it’s suddenly a sensitive topic I don’t think children are ready to hear”
And you know what that says about you?
That you’re not as tolerant or progressive as you like to tell yourself you are.
Jesus Christ I just thought 5th grade was too young. I think your reading my comment a little too deep.
No, I’m really not.
Because I guarantee that you have no issue with cis-heteronormative fairy tales being told to kids, nor cis-heteronormative gender stereotypes enforced on them, from significantly younger than the 5th grade. I also guarantee that you don’t give a shit about how those who aren’t cis or hetero are impacted by only ever learning about those who are.
You’re only clutching your “think of the children!!1” pearls now because you’ve been socialised to other trans and gay people and to believe that their entire existence revolves around the act of sex, so in your mind teaching kids about gender (something we all have an experience of, even if we conclude we don’t have one, and are aware of from as early as infancy) is the equivalent of somehow exposing them to porn or some other “immorality” (when the book literally just teaches kids about accepting others).
So you can keep telling yourself whatever you like to make yourself feel better, but the reality is that you are buying in to, and actively perpetuating, transphobia and homophobia.
Most of these discussions don’t really get into the details of it. It isn’t like a 5th grade teacher is going to go into exactly how the surgery and hormon injects work. It is a pretty top level PG rated discussion. I agree if that strawman was happening it would be if nothing else very strange.
There is a difference between telling a kid that two guys can marry and showing a kid a hardcore gay porno.
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I mean I remember taking biology that went over reproductive anatomy in 6th grade. I feel like gender identity isn’t any more mature of a topic than penises and vaginas. Maybe my school was an outlier though? Either way I think letting kids who might not feel comfortable with their gender know that their feelings are valid is important enough to warrant mentioning in elementary school
It’s clearly a children’s book. Do you really think it’s presented in any sort of inappropriate way?
My daughters went through puberty at 9 and almost 9. That’s 4th grade. The older one knew she was gay by 11. I had sex ed starting in 5th grade back in the fucking 80’s.
Except gender is a much less mature topic than sex and sexual attraction, something that should be taught around 5th grade if not earlier, before children have confusing feelings and their bodies undergo confusing changes. The media atmosphere already leaves impressions about sexuality in the minds of children much earlier, so there isn’t much harm for parents or teachers to discuss the topic in a much healthier way.
Gender on the other hand is something impressed upon and experienced by even toddlers, so the topic of gender isn’t all that mature, it’s only treated as mature because of the social taboos regarding trans individuals.
You can easily talk to preschoolers about this stuff. A little bit of information about the world they live in doesn’t hurt them in the least.
People are gender non conforming from a young age, not after puberty. Making them wait to learn about it just means they will be confused about it for longer, whether it’s themselves or their peers
Yeah why tell kids about puberty until they’re done with it?
Yeah, you think they should wait until the trauma really sets in? That’s the right time?
In response to the edit: I notice you pivoted from it being a function of “maturity” and placement relative to puberty, to now wrapping it in concern of the gov’t - some how - surpressing “lgbtq rights” by teaching about their existence, which is a contradictory stance, but w.e.
Look, my sister’s trans, my mothers are gay, and I’m the straight dood in my family. I’m not in a hivemind, and my experience watching them wade through life informs my thoughts. Your appeal that people who disagree with you are in one is troubling, to say the least.
Heck, you didn’t even address a few anecdotes of people being precisely in the age range you had issue with, and instead chose to take a different tact – instead doubling down you are correct.
I didn’t “pivot”, i didnt brink up the age aspect because it is pretty apparent that i’m in the minority (at least on here) with my opinion, The government / school aspect was before the edit if you look again. I only brought that back up because I felt i could expand my train of thought on it, i didn’t feel there is anything to add about the age when such education is appropriate, especially when me and the other commenters disagree so strongly that nothing will come of it.
I think it’s common to conflate Gender Dysphoria and sexual maturity since hormone therapy is a common treatment. Here is a study from the nlm about the age transgender adults first experienced symptoms of GD. It’s only one study so maybe do some additional reading.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8766261/#:~:text=Gender%20dysphoria%20history%3A%20Of%20the,among%20their%20earliest%20childhood%20memories.
What does puberty have to do with the topic? Should we wait til puberty to teach people that the flu or covid exists? It’s a topic connected to many deaths, so surely it’s a mature topic. Otoh, gender is a pretty basic topic parents force onto children, often before the child is even born. Why do we allow such inappropriate behavior towards literal children?
Well, some kids in 5th grade will start to wonder about themselves so it sounds pretty age appropriate to be taught differences exists.
I think my teachers did a really good job discussing this when I was a kid. In fact, I think they did such a good job, that it should be the standard until we have a more agreed-upon understanding of gender fluidity. I mean, I’m in favor of teaching it but I understand not everyone is and it’s maybe not fully understood yet.
Way back in 2005, my 5th grade health teacher essentially said this:
"Usually men want to have sex with women and women want to have sex with men. But sometimes, men want to have sex with men, women want to have sex with women, and not everyone feels like they were born in the right body. Sometimes, men feel like women and women feel like men.
You guys have probably heard a lot about gay marriage and homosexuality in the news. This is what they are talking about and adults don’t always agree on some of this. A lot of people think it’s okay to be gay or to change your gender. Other people think it goes against their religion. I’m here if you have any questions, but you can also ask your parents what they think about it."
This was after he sent home a permission slip to talk about sex ed. in general. Every parent signed except for one Muslim girl in the class. She went and watched movies in the room next door because her parents preferred to talk to her about it in their own way.
I thought it was a pretty uncontroversial way to handle this whole thing. We could probably go a bit farther today, but this was pretty progressive for 2005.
I remember this so vividly because I could feel that there was tension around the topic and I could tell that my teacher was respectfully trying to share “both sides” of an issue. I use quotes around both sides because I honestly think homophobia and transphobia are ridiculous views to hold, but I know people have them, unfortunately. And I do think people have some right to dictate what education their child receives even if they’re teaching them abhorrent things.
I remember thinking it was interesting that adults didn’t agree on this. There was a legal battle over gay marriage licenses in New York City going on in 2005 and it was all over the local news, so I remember it being a big deal.
At what age should people be given the mental framework to understand their own gender?
I was in catholic school and started sex ed (well what counts as sex ed for a catholic school) in 5th grade. They told us about some of the most extreme cases of what some.of the worst sti’s do and we watched video of an actual birth so if we could handle hearing and seeing those things in a catholic school, I think 5th graders can handle learning about how people express their genders.
They already do that in every school I know of. These idiot say they are indoctrinating kids to be homosexual or trans ( tbf not sure if there is a real difference besides body look) yet all “health” classes focus on the male and female reproductive system. I remember parents getting In an uproar over high schoolers being given condoms in the class.
Yea some children are rebellious against the norma, however I truly believe that if the parents want to control the schooling so bad, then their asses should quit their jobs and home school. Otherwise they should all just STFU.
Let’s keep going. Hope you disabled notifications.
Just cuz you had a bad take doesn’t mean we’re a fucking hive mind. I didnt even bother reading others’ replies before giving you my piece. But way to be condescending to cushion your ego!
So you support government censorship as a tool to protect against… government censorship?
Still haven’t read what others had to say, it’s probably quite disgusting yes
Look you had a bad take and now you’re lashing out to protect your ego. its fine
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You are 100% correct. Absolutely no reason to be bringing up any of this nonsense to 10 year olds.
But good luck having a logical conversation with some about this - just because you don’t want 10 year olds exposed to this, they immediately (and quite wrongly) accuse of you being some bible-thumper or some right wing nazi or a MAGAt or someone along those lines. Maybe you just know your kid and know it is too early to discuss this stuff with them? This teacher forced the hand of the school board panel to fire her because she specifically pull this stunt against parent wishes.
It is obnoxious to see that many on the far-left act the same way and use the same attack techniques as those on the far-right. They both are just as stubborn and just as closed-minded to altering viewpoints. What makes it especially bad is that liberals at least like to pretend that they are open-minded to differing viewpoints, but the reality is that for many, that is absolutely not the case.
This shit has no business in schools, especially at this young age. Those who are stubbornly pushing this nonsense are doing way more harm than good to liberal causes. These people are painting a terrible picture to the country of what the far-left wants to do and that they will do it regardless of what parents agree to.
You all are setting the movement back, not helping it move forward. You come off as clowns.