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I think the problem comes when it’s framed as “you can only be trans if you have a diagnosis” as opposed to “you’re trans whether you have a diagnosis or any kind of medical experience with it or not.” One can say “it took a doctor diagnosing me with dysphoria before I could accept I was trans, but I understand that this is just my experience, and I know others have their own experience” and that’s totally fine.
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It should be ok to tell people, for example, that dysphoria is central to the trans condition
I don’t agree. It’s ok to say “dysphoria is central to my trans experience, though I understand this isn’t universal.” That doesn’t gatekeep anyone. In fact it’s the opposite. But it’s not ok to tell others that dysphoria or medical treatment is required to be trans.
Sure, in many locations, having a diagnosis is required before doctors will allow you to even begin HRT or consider having surgeries if you want them. But that’s just a symptom of a broken medical system that enforces cisheteronormativity, and prevents self-ID and informed consent. It’s not what actually defines what being trans is all about. It’s just a hoop people are forced to jump through.
There’s a difference between having honest and good-faith discussions about the role dysphoria, surgery and HRT play in the overall trans experience, and making broad definitive statements. That’s what actually erases others’ experiences.
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The idea that a person can be socialized into being trans is directly contradictory to the idea that a trans person is born trans and that their gender identity is an unchangeable biological reality of who they are (which causes dysphoria when mismatched with their body).
You are collapsing too many ideas into one here.
There are people who through some combination of nature and nurture find themselves wanting to be treated in a way which aligns much closer to how one gender gets treated in a particular society. They may choose to transition to get this treatment despite having no dysphoria about themselves or their body. Being upset about how someone treats you is not necessarily dysphoria. There are also individuals who don’t experience their gender negatively but experience another gender more positively. They do not have dysphoria yet may choose to transition to maximize their happiness. Do not erase these individuals.
Arguing that dysphoria is central to the trans experience is a trans medicalist (truscum) viewpoint and exclusionary rhetoric isn’t nice and therefore isn’t allowed around here.
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No one is erasing anyone
You’re literally erasing me, lol. I’m agender and trans. I did not start transitioning because of gender dysphoria. I don’t even experience gender dysphoria. If you don’t think I have the right experience to identify as trans, that’s on you my friend, but I’m not going to change my labels because you don’t think that I exist. I’m sorry if you feel that my existence jeopardizes your existence or invalidates it in any way, because there are many compatible world views in which it does not.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter either way - I only intervened here because you got reported for not being nice. So please, stop it.
Otherwise you could claim a crossdresser were trans or people who claimed they were “attack helicopters” would have to be accepted as trans because there would literally be no argument you could make against it.
this just sounds like a skill issue on your part, i’m sorry–this is not an issue if you have a postmodernist understanding of gender, which most trans people (myself included) subscribe to.
at the end of the day when you drill down? there really is not a material difference between the “real” and “fake” genders–gender is entirely socially constructed, and the designations of “male” and “female” that most people fall into are as arbitrary as any xenogender (real or frivolously created by right-wingers). you only “lose” by entertaining frivolous designations if your understanding of gender is already so narrow that you can’t conceptually accommodate anything beyond a handful of stock gender identities to begin with.
This is gatekeeping via transmedicalist talking points.
Dysphoria is not central to the trans experience. It’s central to some trans experiences.
Even if your belief that dysphoria has biological/medical routes were true, that still doesn’t mean that it’s the only way to be trans.
Whatever else it is, gender is also a social construct, and our relationships with social constructs shape who we are in very real ways.
And hell to take your gatekeeping ever further, even if you’re right, and some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever, they’re still trans until they’re not.
This is about the time that people (typically) stop the conversation and try to get you banned by calling you truscum and transphobic.
Yep, for good reason
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It’s not gatekeeping
Yes, it is. You are saying that anyone without a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria isn’t trans. You do not get to make that kind of statement.
You are the one erasing others’ experiences
You are the one arguing against trans people’s legitimacy
No one here is saying being trans isn’t real. But *you are when you say that it’s only valid if you have dysphoria.
You also have to think this through: if you believe that you can only really be trans if you have a medical diagnosis, then you have created vast swathes of gatekeepers for being trans: doctors, insurance companies, politicians, governments at every level. In our bigoted, cisheteronormative society, if we say you can only be trans with a diagnosis, and that society doesn’t want trans people to exist, then they can just stop diagnosing people. Doctors can refuse, and decide instead that you’re depressed, bipolar, BPD, etc. instead, and that anyone who thinks they’re trans is just “mentally ill.” Governments can pass laws preventing state run insurances (Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, etc.) from paying for anything related to dysphoria. They can also pass laws saying private insurances either don’t have to cover it, or that they can’t. I know for a fact this is already happening because I live in Florida. I’m watching this scenario happen right in front of me. You’re taking away the ability for a person to know their own mind and their own body, and their right and ability to understand their own identity, and handing that judgement over to people with a vested interest in denying it.
And I can see why you’d think this would be a path to walk: if we say “a medical diagnosis means we’re objectively, scientifically trans, then the bigots can’t deny it”, but that’s not how things work. That’s just pandering to the oppressors. You will never appease them.
No one is saying that you can just call anyone trans you want, like crossdressers, drag queens, or “attack helicopters” (I honestly can’t believe you even threw that one around). Only the bigots do that.
No one is saying your experience isn’t valid. It’s exactly the opposite. If you feel dysphoria is central to your experience, that’s fine! You’re just as trans as the next trans person, just as valid. But that’s your experience. You don’t get to generalize your experience and then decide that’s the yardstick by which everyone else must be measured.
some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever
This is what evangelicals and terfs claim. But it’s not true. It’s why you cannot convert a trans person, or a gay person from what they are. It’s why the medical community has acknowledged that the best treatment is affirming care. If you believe being trans is a social issue you’re putting trans people into a position to lose their access to medical care.
You took this quote completely out of context and inverted the intended meaning to suit your argument. The statement Ada made was
And hell to take your gatekeeping ever further, even if you’re right, and some trans folk can “stop being trans” as a result of their social environment or whatever, they’re still trans until they’re not.
Gonna have to disagree here. The social aspect of it all is just as important of the medical aspect. While there are trans issues that are mostly medical in nature, there are equally trans issues that are more social in nature.
I’m not sure what contexts you’ve seen truscum being used in, but from what I know it’s a term used for people who insist on a medical diagnosis in order to be trans. The problem with this, imo, is twofold. There’s a long history of medical gatekeeping that enforced cisheteronormativity in order to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, leaving out all other forms of self-identity (among a whole host of philosophical issues). And the second is just the lack of understanding and research of the broader medical community. Treatment guidelines are all over the place, often misguided, and usually inadequate to achieve the goals of the patient.
Truscum rhetoric often reinforces cisheteronormativity which is mostly antithetical to what being trans is about in the first place. That’s not to say that the trans community doesn’t struggle with medical diagnoses or that that’s not important, but to use a diagnosis as the benchmark of what being trans is, is usually needlessly exclusionary.
I’d like to respond to some of the things discussed in this thread, but I don’t want to directly reply to anyone. I just want to share my perspective, not argue.
Transgender is currently accepted as an umbrella term and includes a variety of identities. What these identities have in common is that they are not cisgender. Disagreements about which identities fall under the trans umbrella are really about the specificity of the label itself. Some people seem to want the umbrella to be split into two distinctly different labels, with one being specifically for trans people who seek medical transition.
It all comes down to the definition of transgender as an umbrella term. Definitions of terms change, and it’s not unreasonable to think that transgender may change meaning again in the near future. But right now, “not cisgender” is what defines transgender identities, and that includes non-binary people and trans people that don’t seek medical transition.
As someone medically transitioning by HRT and seeking SRS, my identity is not diminished in any way by acknowledging the validity of other identities. My recent meme explicitly explains my desire for SRS, and there was no push-back. That’s because I was explaining my own transition and not attempting to define other people.
Not all trans people seek medical transition, and that’s valid. Not all trans people seeking medical transition want both HRT and SRS, and that’s also valid. And what trans people want for themselves can change. It’s important that non-cisgender people be accepted as transgender so they can accept themselves. Big questions about possible medical transition can be decided later.
Our enemies are the transphobes attacking our freedoms. Let’s be kind to our fellow trans people.
❤️
Unfortunately that one has only one inactive mod, which makes it prone to transphobic raids. You could make an account on lemmy.ml (or hexbear itself, its one of the only instances with pronouns as a feature built in and has been very supportive of trans people and defeding transphobic instances) and access hexbear’s /c/traa which is somewhere around 10x more active and has 23 mods on it. Generally we’re able to remove transphobic content within 5-10 minutes of a report so that other people don’t have to see it.
We defederated from hexbear, please don’t post links to hexbear on our instance. If you’re a beehaw user and believe hexbear is worth reconsidering, feel free to start a conversation in support explaining why you think they should be refederated with.
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Too bad Hexbear is still a parody of itself:
- Built-in pronouns feature
- “Current time: […] Moscow Standard Time”
- “A leftist social platform”
- No fascists
- Non-vegan food is NSFW “(CW: Food)”
- Only allows content legal in US and UK
They’ve updated the CoC with some sensible points, but still have a way to go.
doesnt matter, im specifically referring to a trans community on hexbear, you can make an account on lemmy.ml to access traa. if you look at removals the only thing we’ve removed is transphobia. hexbear has explicitly defed from dozens of instances because they are harbingers of transphobia and harass transgender people. there is a reason why almost half of the site is populated by trans users.
and how is ‘no fascists’ a bad rule?
Hexbear was defeded by many instances, both because of the tankie vibe, and because the nice people of Hexbear went on to be not-nice on other instances. Reading their CoC now, they seem to have added a rule about the latter. Still…
The first contradiction stems from the set of terms {“Moscow”, “no fascists”, “LGBT”}, it conjures images like:
- Putin’s rule, and procreation camps to increase the availability of cannon fodder.
- Videos of gay couples holding hands in the center of Moscow, getting insulted and spit on by random passerbys.
Other contradictions are:
- US and UK putting sanctions on Russia, and the other way around, making “legal in” (US ∩ UK ∩ Moscow) ≈ ∅.
- {“Leftist”, “no fascists”, “vegan”} vs. China/USSR/Putin, and in particular dog farms or the “if it moves, then we eat it” saying.
No rule alone is exactly wrong; the combination of them is a WTF.
Keep in mind that when accessing that community, you’re beholden to both your own and the remote instance’s rules. Sometimes, those are not compatible.
youre very in your own head about these ideas. perhaps you have been told these things and have not investigated yourself. you are not immune to propaganda.
The first contradiction stems from the set of terms {“Moscow”, “no fascists”, “LGBT”}, it conjures images like:
the moscow time thing is a joke, theres a lot of people that genuinely think hexbear is on putins payroll. for the record, historically the trans community has even been decried as soviet and russian infiltrators, as far back as the 50s and 60s
Videos of gay couples holding hands in the center of Moscow, getting insulted and spit on by random passerbys.
i have gone into my experience dealing with russia on hexbear in the past. im the head mod of c/traa on hexbear. i have personally engaged in (now) highly illegal acts in russia, largely to do with helping trans refugees escape to czechia and finland, draft dodging, and getting HRT to people along the border with china. you might be surprised to hear this, but the average young russian communist is very trans supportive and very helpful to the trans community at large in russia. so many have helped get trans people out of volatile areas like chechnya and donbas.
“if it moves, then we eat it” saying.
can you explain this
I’m afraid the rhetoric pattern of “neg, victimhoood, authority” is not gonna work here.
Maybe that is closer to what Russian citizens/refugees are used to, or even need, and maybe that makes Hexbear useful… but it’s far from the clearer dialectic that those already fed up with rhetoric would willingly engage with.
That means, any “investigation” is going to be limited to a cursory glance, checking the rules, and a few interactions like this one… after which, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck… I like tangerine duck.(¹)
The saying is about China, which is friends with Russia right now, and is notoriously “non-vegan”.
Overall, if what you’re saying is that Hexbear is actually anti-Putin, and pro-idealized communism… cool, but it still doesn’t look like it, whether that be by design or not.
CW: Food
[¹: This is actually true. I’m a “pragmatic” vegan in that I will pick vegan when given a choice, but also eat anything non-toxic, ranging from horse steak tartare, to bull testicles, century eggs, or tangerine duck.]
I’m afraid the rhetoric pattern of “neg, victimhoood, authority” is not gonna work here.
no, its just quite obvious you havent investigated, it is not ‘negging’, i am not giving you a compliment, and i am not manipulating you, i am simply suggesting you use your own two eyes to investigate something beyond a cursory glance. being someone with skin in the game and personal experience has nothing to do with a call to authority, i am explaining to you my history and viewpoints, which are relevant. and saying im acting like a victim makes you sound like a chud.
as you can see on our ongoing survey, which was done publicly, around half the site is trans. over half the moderation is trans. do you truly think that we’re all in on putin, who labels transgender people as terrorists for existing?
are you trans yourself? im wondering what your personal experiences are
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This could be easily interpreted as hostile or negative, I’m removing it. If you wish to be helpful to others, I’d suggest that you never start a reply with “No it doesn’t” when someone is sharing something they could be happy about.
