oh no, those poor oppressed *check notes* cisgender heterosexual people! how will they ever get over *double checks* being able to marry the person they love and *glances again* having other people address them the way they want to be addressed!
feel free to look up the concept of “punching up” in the search engine of your choice.
setting aside the obvious part where the word I’m talking about doesn’t refer to actual physical act of punching (perhaps actually look it up, maybe?) - of course, you’re completely right, suffragettes won the right to vote sheerly by peaceful and quiet protests, and the Pride movement has got roots in a well-known event called “the Stonewall campfire sing-along”.
I don’t find your sarcasm, bad faith, and dismissal of a serious concern, to be compatible with a constructive conversation. If you feel like ditching that, please come again.
You come into a space trying to tone police, arguing with people about how to fight for rights, then get mad when they are a little sarcastic to you? Wow
That’s your projection though. How do you know that oppressed people will in turn become the oppressors once they have the chance? Same goes for racial or other kinds of oppression. Women, queer people, people of color and any other minority have been working to get a more inclusive world benefitting everyone. It is just fear mongering to warn against this. As the other person said, it is comic relief to make fun of the oppressor, in this case cishet people, and it is obviously not a long-term strategy. But it is also not bigotry because for that you need power.
How do you know that oppressed people will in turn become the oppressors once they have the chance?
Historical data… mostly political, but what in human behavior isn’t “political”?
[…] make fun of the oppressor […]
All you said is great… until that point. All action has an opposite reaction, if you want some “comic relief”, I suggest you point it in an orthogonal direction so their reaction is also comic and not reinforcing their bigotry.
But it is also not bigotry because for that you need power.
You have that power in a safe space where the other bigots get silenced, don’t fall into the trap of copying their behavior.
While I see your point of humans being humans and those being in power often oppressing others, I don’t think this applies here. Because the struggle of emancipatory movements against the existing power hierarchies is not one of overthrowing one ruling class and replacing it with another. If you think that’s what is going on when people try to abolish racism or the patriarchy, then you have to be very far removed from those struggles in the first place. Instead of trying to topple one ruling class, we fight an intersectional struggle here, running through families affecting each person differently. This is a structural oppression very different from one class of rulers against an oppressed class. On top of that, I think the vast majority of oppressed people would agree that they want to live in a emancipated society where the form of oppression they face isn’t present anymore. No one wants to turn any form of oppression around.
I try to be giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you really think that feminism or anti-racism is about the goal of oppressing others, then you have to be either ignorant or malicious.
Regarding the comic relief, I think you downplay the role of personal emotions too much. What for of relief or venting would you suggest for all the suffering, the fear, the anger people have? I’m not Jesus and I don’t think his victim mentality will bring us any further here. I won’t turn the other cheek.
I also disagree with reversed bigotry in a safe place. First of all, Lemmy is no safe place. Most of the people here are cis(het) dudes and that makes it not safe per se. Second, I think there is a huge difference between structural oppression backing bigotry or people being assholes. The person you were responding to was obviously not saying that all the cishet people should vanish. You may have projected that on them, but that wasn’t the point. The point is comic relief and as such more of a sarcastic joke. When I say “cis men are garbage” (as I did some months ago here on Lemmy), I don’t literally mean that I think all cis men are really bad people that I want to get rid of. But what else to do about the fact that like 99% of cis men are bigots and are abusing their power? I would be the first person to welcome cis men into my life and be friends with them, if they would not be such irresponsible bigots. So saying “cis men are garbage” can help me vent all this frustration but without me being literal.
And sure, one could say that we should only apply the means that fit our end goals. But this form of comic relief is just that. It is not supposed to be a form of change or how we restructure society. If all we did would be to complain about oppression without trying to constructively change it, then I would be opposed to this as well. But this is not the case. There are already so many things people try to do to make this a better world for everyone. But we are all humans after all and so there needs to be some way of letting off steam. So don’t police other people innocently complain about oppression…
Each and every one? Start with the prehistoric era and tribal warfare, you’ll find a constant theme of oppressors, revolts, winners becoming the new oppressors, revolts… all the way to the present.
You want me to dissect the history of Israel, Korea, Morocco, Germany, the Byzantine Empire, Russia, India, Egypt, Rome… seriously? Not the time and place.
Do you also complain about people saying ‘eat the rich’? What is considered bigotry and what not? I didn’t say that bigotry is fine per se, just that some comic relief is. And I’m firmly convinced that discrimination is based on a structural oppression. That’s what I meant with the phrase about bigotry. But sure, even someone without much power can be an asshole and this wouldn’t be fine for me either. Although it is more complicated than to say this person is just a bigot, because you would need to include a structural level in this. Calling other people bigot for not confirming to your standards is a common way of discrimination as well. So talking about bigotry like a universal thing that is always this one way and that is bad is really overly simplistic and just playing into structural oppression. So maybe go fix this yourself?
You’ve told two people in here to “piss off”. I don’t care how irritated you are with them, that is not even close to be(e)ing nice. You can, in fact, block people without being a jackass about it.
Then they’ll become the oppressed group and return the favor.
Bigotry is not just a comic relief, intolerance increases intolerance, can’t fight fire with fire.
oh no, those poor oppressed *check notes* cisgender heterosexual people! how will they ever get over *double checks* being able to marry the person they love and *glances again* having other people address them the way they want to be addressed!
feel free to look up the concept of “punching up” in the search engine of your choice.
past ≠ present ≠ future
Thanks for the search suggestion, and let me return the favor: look up how people end up after all the fistfights and wars all around the world.
No right has been ever won by punching.
setting aside the obvious part where the word I’m talking about doesn’t refer to actual physical act of punching (perhaps actually look it up, maybe?) - of course, you’re completely right, suffragettes won the right to vote sheerly by peaceful and quiet protests, and the Pride movement has got roots in a well-known event called “the Stonewall campfire sing-along”.
I don’t find your sarcasm, bad faith, and dismissal of a serious concern, to be compatible with a constructive conversation. If you feel like ditching that, please come again.
You come into a space trying to tone police, arguing with people about how to fight for rights, then get mad when they are a little sarcastic to you? Wow
Where by “a little”, you mean every single sentence? No, thanks.
Not every single sentence and also they could have been way worse, especially since you are way out of pocket here.
Does that make it acceptable, or worthwhile of discussing? I don’t think so.
Disagree.
That’s your projection though. How do you know that oppressed people will in turn become the oppressors once they have the chance? Same goes for racial or other kinds of oppression. Women, queer people, people of color and any other minority have been working to get a more inclusive world benefitting everyone. It is just fear mongering to warn against this. As the other person said, it is comic relief to make fun of the oppressor, in this case cishet people, and it is obviously not a long-term strategy. But it is also not bigotry because for that you need power.
Historical data… mostly political, but what in human behavior isn’t “political”?
All you said is great… until that point. All action has an opposite reaction, if you want some “comic relief”, I suggest you point it in an orthogonal direction so their reaction is also comic and not reinforcing their bigotry.
You have that power in a safe space where the other bigots get silenced, don’t fall into the trap of copying their behavior.
While I see your point of humans being humans and those being in power often oppressing others, I don’t think this applies here. Because the struggle of emancipatory movements against the existing power hierarchies is not one of overthrowing one ruling class and replacing it with another. If you think that’s what is going on when people try to abolish racism or the patriarchy, then you have to be very far removed from those struggles in the first place. Instead of trying to topple one ruling class, we fight an intersectional struggle here, running through families affecting each person differently. This is a structural oppression very different from one class of rulers against an oppressed class. On top of that, I think the vast majority of oppressed people would agree that they want to live in a emancipated society where the form of oppression they face isn’t present anymore. No one wants to turn any form of oppression around.
I try to be giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but if you really think that feminism or anti-racism is about the goal of oppressing others, then you have to be either ignorant or malicious.
Regarding the comic relief, I think you downplay the role of personal emotions too much. What for of relief or venting would you suggest for all the suffering, the fear, the anger people have? I’m not Jesus and I don’t think his victim mentality will bring us any further here. I won’t turn the other cheek.
I also disagree with reversed bigotry in a safe place. First of all, Lemmy is no safe place. Most of the people here are cis(het) dudes and that makes it not safe per se. Second, I think there is a huge difference between structural oppression backing bigotry or people being assholes. The person you were responding to was obviously not saying that all the cishet people should vanish. You may have projected that on them, but that wasn’t the point. The point is comic relief and as such more of a sarcastic joke. When I say “cis men are garbage” (as I did some months ago here on Lemmy), I don’t literally mean that I think all cis men are really bad people that I want to get rid of. But what else to do about the fact that like 99% of cis men are bigots and are abusing their power? I would be the first person to welcome cis men into my life and be friends with them, if they would not be such irresponsible bigots. So saying “cis men are garbage” can help me vent all this frustration but without me being literal.
And sure, one could say that we should only apply the means that fit our end goals. But this form of comic relief is just that. It is not supposed to be a form of change or how we restructure society. If all we did would be to complain about oppression without trying to constructively change it, then I would be opposed to this as well. But this is not the case. There are already so many things people try to do to make this a better world for everyone. But we are all humans after all and so there needs to be some way of letting off steam. So don’t police other people innocently complain about oppression…
Heavy doubt on that one. Care to cite some sources?
Sure, here go a few hundred (thousand?) sources:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_history_of_the_world
Which one of those shows an oppressed people turning around and oppressing the oppressor?
Each and every one? Start with the prehistoric era and tribal warfare, you’ll find a constant theme of oppressors, revolts, winners becoming the new oppressors, revolts… all the way to the present.
I’m asking for specifics here. You made a claim, back it up with 1 single, tangible source, not some generic “all of history” bullshit
You want me to dissect the history of Israel, Korea, Morocco, Germany, the Byzantine Empire, Russia, India, Egypt, Rome… seriously? Not the time and place.
Bigotry is bigotry regardless of whether you have any power or not.
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that any type of bigotry is acceptable?
This is a huge problem with your thought process; I suggest you take whatever steps necessary to fix it.
Do you also complain about people saying ‘eat the rich’? What is considered bigotry and what not? I didn’t say that bigotry is fine per se, just that some comic relief is. And I’m firmly convinced that discrimination is based on a structural oppression. That’s what I meant with the phrase about bigotry. But sure, even someone without much power can be an asshole and this wouldn’t be fine for me either. Although it is more complicated than to say this person is just a bigot, because you would need to include a structural level in this. Calling other people bigot for not confirming to your standards is a common way of discrimination as well. So talking about bigotry like a universal thing that is always this one way and that is bad is really overly simplistic and just playing into structural oppression. So maybe go fix this yourself?
Bigotry is not acceptable. Period. End of story.
You of all people should be capable of understanding this very simple principle.
And since I am absolutely out of patience with bad faith actors today, I’m blocking you as well. Now, piss off.
You’ve told two people in here to “piss off”. I don’t care how irritated you are with them, that is not even close to be(e)ing nice. You can, in fact, block people without being a jackass about it.