Do you care about genocide? You don’t make it look like you do. Because most people take genocide seriously and don’t just throw around accusations about random strangers. And they understand the real barriers there are to reducing and stopping it, and who bears the most responsibility for those barriers, and who is simply forced to bow down to them.
This kind of provocative rhetoric is harmful if you actually want to stop it. You’re getting bombed by downvotes not because what you’re saying, but because the way you’re bringing it, even people that want to stop genocide consider you to be a negative impact on how we actually reduce it. Think about that for a moment.
You’re undermining your own cause, and it’s hard to differentiate you from someone who wants to muddy the water so we don’t discuss atrocities in good faith at all.
There’s no way that’s not a troll or a bot. One trick to tell if someone is a bot is to ask about their family or if they’re depressed. This one skips the questions and posts more bullshit that isn’t even on point of the conversation.
Joe fucking Biden is responsible for this genocide, he is one of the only people that can stop it if he wanted. His unlimited support in tens of billions of dollars of weapons and his protective stance against anyone in the region attempting to defend Palestinians are the only reason this genocide can happen. Without the US Israel would be unable to carry out this genocide.
Why the fuck are people defending him still? He’s not running for President, it’s okay to hate him! It’s okay to speak out! You aren’t helping Trump! Please please p lease stop, you don’t have to do this anymore. Please. Stop defending him.
They are not defending him, they just disagree with your view specifically that he is personally responsible for this and you are conflating that to be defending him. You are perhaps not technically wrong that Joe can just end this, but Joe Biden doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and neither does the war in Gaza. The US dropping Israel like a brick might do more harm than good on the long term:
It could cost Kamala critical support from voters who want the US to remain Israels allies, leading to a pro-genocide Trump leadership.
It could cause an all out war because Iran is just salivating at such an opportunity.
It could break diplomatic relationships for the US that it relies on to function.
And most likely (imo), it would be giving up the few places in the middle east that the US has some level of control and a positive (and not frienemy) relationship with. This is a particularly touchy reason because influence is power at the international level. And that does seem to resonate with most of the US people. So even if they might be anti-genocide, they might be more in favor of keeping that control.
Kamala could align her position more with the people once she’s in office. And if future elections produce a more reasonable candidate on the other side (lol), you could actually punish them for it with your vote if they don’t. But right now, supporting Israel is what is seemingly the safest option for a candidate. The fact that is the answer they settled on shows there are underlying reasons that out-weigh just dropping Israel, and if you want to make an actual change, those underlying reasons are the ones you have to put to rest before things can change.
Or… you can refuse to look at actual solutions, and just accuse people because they don’t believe in your absolutist stance which has a near zero chance to actually change anything.
You should be trying to change minds so that the pressure from people might actually make them reconsider their options. And by calling people who don’t immediately agree with you as being pro genocide, they’re going to equate being anti genocide with your position, and they’re going to see anyone holding the position as being naive. Even though it clearly isn’t, but you’ve wasted the first impression they could have had to change their mind. It will not make people who don’t yet understand the issue side with you to actually make a change. Now every attempt after that is going to be harder and harder. And so their stance remains ever in the direction of supporting Isreal. And leadership will once more have to appeal to that side.
It could cost Kamala critical support from voters who want the US to remain Israels allies, leading to a pro-genocide Trump leadership.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
It could cause an all out war because Iran is just salivating at such an opportunity.
Excuse me? It’s fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran’s responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
It could break diplomatic relationships for the US that it relies on to function.
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US’s playground, whatever the US wants they’ll either support it or quietly stand aside.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it’s only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
And most likely (imo), it would be giving up the few places in the middle east that the US has some level of control and a positive (and not frienemy) relationship with. This is a particularly touchy reason because influence is power at the international level. And that does seem to resonate with most of the US people. So even if they might be anti-genocide, they might be more in favor of keeping that control.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter’s minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
If you cannot see that Kamala’s campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden’s campaign and his current presidency, I don’t know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
Excuse me? It’s fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran’s responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You’re right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that’s sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it’s very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn’t sound like the thing you want.
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US’s playground, whatever the US wants they’ll either support it or quietly stand aside.
Ehh, I’m not even sure where you get this from. The EU will not just blindly support what the US wants, but we are very aligned diplomatically. In the EU there is sadly a similar struggle for different reasons.
But it does make your position a little bit more understandable if you truly think the US is somehow the leader of everyone else they are good diplomatic partners with. Fortunately, that is not the case.
To answer the question, no, I was referring in part to Taiwan and Ukraine, but also allies with whom a larger majority supports Isreal, or those that have agreements with the US that hang on their stance.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it’s only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
Yes. And yet, that’s not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they’re currently at, they haven’t crossed that line.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter’s minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
And here is your fatal flaw. If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it’s not. It’s an uncomfortable truth, I’m sure. But not everyone has the same experiences as you do. Nor as your friends, nor as the people in your town, nor as the people in your state. You saw what happened to Joe Biden when his mental decline clearly became a reason to urge him out of the race. When the pressure is there, it’s hard to ignore. But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn’t what caused him to drop out, and no significant pressure has even manifested.
If you cannot see that Kamala’s campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden’s campaign and his current presidency, I don’t know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
I don’t think people connect her with Biden’s genocide. Yes, she is complicit because there are things she could be doing to remove Biden from office, but most people don’t see the Vice President as actually all that important in deciding policy. I do not think attacking Biden on this issue hurts her at all, and that’s why she’s going to win.
Attacking Biden is, in fact, a good way to pressure Harris without hurting her chances at winning. He’s a fair target and it should be open season on his evil ancient ass.
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You’re right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that’s sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it’s very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn’t sound like the thing you want.
Whenever they’ve retaliated in the past it’s always been very conservative and measured because they don’t want a regional war either. They understand that a regional war wouldn’t save Palestinian lives and would be extremely costly for everyone in the region, they’re not the problem here. Israel is the only actor trying to start more wars at this moment and you need to recognize that, rather than scaring yourself with Iranian boogeymen. Israel is the problem and Israel must be stopped, or war is inevitable.
Yes. And yet, that’s not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they’re currently at, they haven’t crossed that line.
There’s still several months until the election. It can, and will, continue to get worse. I don’t think we should find out where the breaking point is.
But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn’t what caused him to drop out, and no such pressure has even manifested.
The uncommitted movement is a powerful force in swing states and donors know this - Biden being old is only part of the reason he was forced to drop out.
If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it’s not.
It’s like I said, I think Harris is going to be just fine. Dems believe, probably correctly, that Biden is a lightning rod that will distract voters away from Harris’s record on Israel and allow them to win this November. If they’re right, we can voice opposition to Biden’s racist genocidal policies without helping Trump win. We can’t afford to be silent.
So now that he’s out of the race there’s literally no reason to hold back. At this point support for Biden is 100% just support for genocide.
I don’t think people connect her with Biden’s genocide. Yes, she is complicit because there are things she could be doing to remove Biden from office, but most people don’t see the Vice President as actually all that important in deciding policy. I do not think attacking Biden on this issue hurts her at all, and that’s why she’s going to win.
Attacking Biden is, in fact, a good way to pressure Harris without hurting her chances at winning. He’s a fair target and it should be open season on his evil ancient ass.
Sure, I can see the logic in that. I do think it will affect her and people are kind of expecting her to have the same stance as Biden even if he changes it. Unless she comes out to denounce it, which I highly doubt she will. But we can disagree on that and criticizing Biden for that is totally fine.
Whenever they’ve retaliated in the past it’s always been very conservative and measured because they don’t want a regional war either. They understand that a regional war wouldn’t save Palestinian lives and would be extremely costly for everyone in the region, they’re not the problem here. Israel is the only actor trying to start more wars at this moment and you need to recognize that, rather than scaring yourself with Iranian boogeymen. Israel is the problem and Israel must be stopped, or war is inevitable.
I mean, we’re having this conversation because you insisted Joe Biden was the issue. It has always been my stance that Israel is the problem, and kind of abusing the good will of the populations that supported them. So I’m glad to hear you seem to agree on that.
But I do think you are giving Iran too much credit, they are not a boogeyman, which would imply they are actually harmless. They are a legitimately evil autocracy that does not care for people more than Israel does. Iran will definitely take the chance if the US would drop support for Israel. It is because of Israels support in large part from the US that they have not made rash moves, because they too have to balance their pushback on Israel and invoking a response from the US and allies.
There’s still several months until the election. It can, and will, continue to get worse. I don’t think we should find out where the breaking point is.
I don’t think you should either. But I’m not so sure it’s set in stone if it will. We’re living in turbulent times.
The uncommitted movement is a powerful force in swing states and donors know this - Biden being old is only part of the reason he was forced to drop out.
Swing voters are pretty much by definition leaning more towards the Republicans than non-swing Democrats. And we just sort of agreed that Republicans are more in favor of supporting Israel. So I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to say these swing voters are more likely to support Israel than Democrats. More evidence of that is the fact I don’t think Kamala has spoken prominently once of Gaza since she became the presumptive and eventual candidate. Which she definitely would highlight if that would make her more favorable with swing voters. But there are seemingly more important issues that she’s addressing first, if she will even discuss Israel at all.
It’s like I said, I think Harris is going to be just fine. Dems believe, probably correctly, that Biden is a lightning rod that will distract voters away from Harris’s record on Israel and allow them to win this November. If they’re right, we can voice opposition to Biden’s racist genocidal policies without helping Trump win. We can’t afford to be silent.
So now that he’s out of the race there’s literally no reason to hold back. At this point support for Biden is 100% just support for genocide.
I agree. Biden can be a lightning rod for criticism instead of Kamala. But again, I don’t think anyone is really supporting Joe Biden that way anymore. I certainly haven’t seen such sentiment from the people you accused of being pro genocide. Support is very different from rejecting what they perceive to be inaccuracies or mischaracterizations. And the two shouldn’t be confused, nor easily determined if you’re going to assign the label ‘pro genocide’ to them afterwards. If you want to actually change things, attacking people will not make people with opposing views change their mind, and reasonable allies will abandon you. Even if you are right, you still need to convince people who think you are wrong. And assuming they must hold that position because they are pro genocide is just massively slashing your own tires.
I mean, we’re having this conversation because you insisted Joe Biden was the issue
Well, no, I insist that public support for Biden is the issue. Biden couldn’t do this alone. The real problem is that people fanatically support him despite his genocidal policies, which only ensures the genocide continues. What can I call that but pro-genocide?
And I do not buy into the idea that Israel is somehow a rogue agent that just keeps getting away with war crimes. Israel could not do what it is doing without US support, and the US would not do what it is doing if the masses stood up and demanded the genocide be stopped. We really do have the power to change things.
You seem convinced that nothing we can do can change anything. Deeply deeply cynical.
Iran will definitely take the chance if they US would drop support for Israel. It is because of Israels support in large part from the US that they have not made rash moves, because they too have to balance their pushback on Israel and invoking a response from the US and allies.
That might be true! Even if that’s the case, I don’t see why the US couldn’t strike a balance - stop arming Israel but also continue to pledge a response if Israel is attacked.
There’s a lot more the US could do after that (arrest Israel’s war criminals and seize their weapons and dismantle their apartheid system and empty their political prisons) but that’s all pretty unrealistic to expect from the US and I recognize that. But! An arms embargo is, I think, a demand we can make of our leaders and I think we have a duty to try.
Swing voters are pretty much by definition leaning more towards the Republicans than non-swing Democrats.
And, because Democrats think the key to winning elections to to appeal to Republican-leaning swing voters, they constantly move to the right on foreign policy and immigration and trade etc. etc. I’m skeptical that swing voters are necessarily the key to winning! I still believe there’s a vast sea of untapped voting potential of people who hate both parties, but that a militant anti-genocide policy would draw them back into the voting process. Half the country doesn’t vote. Win their support and you can never lose.
I agree. Biden can be a lightning rod for criticism instead of Kamala. But again, I don’t think anyone is really supporting Joe Biden that way anymore.
You’re contradicting yourself. Does Biden have the support of right-leaning swing voters, or does not one support him anymore?
I certainly haven’t seen such sentiment from the people you accused of being pro genocide. Support is very different from rejecting what they perceive to be inaccuracies or mischaracterizations. And the two shouldn’t be confused, nor easily determined if you’re going to assign the label ‘pro genocide’ to them afterwards. If you want to actually change things, attacking people will not make people with opposing views change their mind, and reasonable allies will abandon you. Even if you are right, you still need to convince people who think you are wrong. And assuming they must hold that position because they are pro genocide is just massively slashing your own tires.
All I said was that Biden still supports genocide and that supporting Biden is pro-genocide, and this triggered a vicious wave of personal attacks and dehumanization by dozens of people. But, I don’t see how this is controversial. There’s literally no reason at all to continue to support Biden! We’re free to attack him as much as we want!
And yet? By calling out his genocide I have been told I am a MAGA Trump supporter (I’m trans, he and his cult are literally going to kill me), I have been told I am not taking this conversation seriously, I have been called a bot over and over, I have been told that it’s actually me that doesn’t care about genocide, and I’ve been fed endless snide sarcasm from people who seem to think I am stupid. Go look at what I’ve said and how I’ve been treated. This doesn’t look like people who are rejecting inaccuracies or mischaracterizations, this looks like a hate mob of Biden supporters who fucking hate me for holding Biden responsible for his support for genocide.
And if I wanted to actually change things I would log off and do something productive with my time. No one will ever be convinced by anyone arguing with them on the internet, and that was true before bots became good enough to fool people. I just have a horrible sickness that causes me to argue with people until I cry and hurt myself lol
I was here since the start before any such messages appeared, so you’re not fooling me. You started out with “He’s still doing genocide y’all”. An inaccurate and laden statement which you rightfully got a critical responses for, not because people support the policy. You followed this up by calling your critics pro-genocide, regardless of their actual position. I’m sorry, but you don’t exist out of context either, so yeah, people are kind of not going to like you in this thread. It’s why you don’t attack people out of the gate, I warned you about that in my very first message. Hostility often creates more hostility. I don’t necessarily condone that, but you have thrown a little too much dirt to be surprised about being dirty.
We haven’t even discussed whether or not I think we can do anything about it, yet you call me deeply cynical for a position I don’t hold.
I do think more people in the US should be against the support for Israel. I do think the support makes Israel emboldened to commit genocide. I do think people can be convinced. But as I was trying to explain to you, I understand that other people look at different aspects and have different experiences to where they can be unaware of Israels atrocities, or are indeed willing to look away. And often those people are sadly needed for a majority that has chances of actually stopping the genocide. So they must be convinced to get the end result I desire, no more genocide.
It should be obvious that anyone you ask if genocide is okay, they will say no. But people can have irrational and conflicting beliefs, and to actually make them change their mind the worst you can do is to effectively say “you are a terrible person”, even if it’s effectively true. Because if they’ve rationalized themselves to accept supporting Israel, being called a terrible person only emboldens that rationalization. There exists no magic incantation that will change this. (And it should be said, calling the people who very well might share your opinion on all but your questionable remarks, makes you look really bad)
If you think you can get 50% of the votes in the US, I really urge you to start a party right now. Because by that logic both Democrats and Republicans could only hold 25% of the vote, so you could win in a landslide victory with the remaining 50%. But I think we both know that will not happen. But according to the data, ~66% voted in the last election. 34% is still enough for a victory, but that’s a tall order.
I want you to understand that I’m talking to you because I want you to be effective at getting your message across. Having commendable opinions but being terribly self destructive in ways of expressing them is so incredibly wasteful and will at worst create more support for the thing you are rallying against. Clearly you have the vigor to stand up for what your opinion is, but actually changing things means taking on constructive, calm and respectful dialogue, and doing what’s effective over what perhaps more morally clean in the short term, but because you didn’t actually change anything, morally dubious in the long term.
Do you care about genocide? You don’t make it look like you do. Because most people take genocide seriously and don’t just throw around accusations about random strangers. And they understand the real barriers there are to reducing and stopping it, and who bears the most responsibility for those barriers, and who is simply forced to bow down to them.
This kind of provocative rhetoric is harmful if you actually want to stop it. You’re getting bombed by downvotes not because what you’re saying, but because the way you’re bringing it, even people that want to stop genocide consider you to be a negative impact on how we actually reduce it. Think about that for a moment.
You’re undermining your own cause, and it’s hard to differentiate you from someone who wants to muddy the water so we don’t discuss atrocities in good faith at all.
This poster absolutely does not care. They’re just using it to make themselves feel better than everyone else. It’s been this way for months.
I have them tagged, they admitted that they’re a teenager in school, and they were shocked to find out that Hamas wants genocide lol
There’s no way that’s not a troll or a bot. One trick to tell if someone is a bot is to ask about their family or if they’re depressed. This one skips the questions and posts more bullshit that isn’t even on point of the conversation.
No actually this comment thread makes me feel fucking horrible and sick.
Sounds very much like a bot/troll.
Joe fucking Biden is responsible for this genocide, he is one of the only people that can stop it if he wanted. His unlimited support in tens of billions of dollars of weapons and his protective stance against anyone in the region attempting to defend Palestinians are the only reason this genocide can happen. Without the US Israel would be unable to carry out this genocide.
Why the fuck are people defending him still? He’s not running for President, it’s okay to hate him! It’s okay to speak out! You aren’t helping Trump! Please please p lease stop, you don’t have to do this anymore. Please. Stop defending him.
They are not defending him, they just disagree with your view specifically that he is personally responsible for this and you are conflating that to be defending him. You are perhaps not technically wrong that Joe can just end this, but Joe Biden doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and neither does the war in Gaza. The US dropping Israel like a brick might do more harm than good on the long term:
Kamala could align her position more with the people once she’s in office. And if future elections produce a more reasonable candidate on the other side (lol), you could actually punish them for it with your vote if they don’t. But right now, supporting Israel is what is seemingly the safest option for a candidate. The fact that is the answer they settled on shows there are underlying reasons that out-weigh just dropping Israel, and if you want to make an actual change, those underlying reasons are the ones you have to put to rest before things can change. Or… you can refuse to look at actual solutions, and just accuse people because they don’t believe in your absolutist stance which has a near zero chance to actually change anything.
You should be trying to change minds so that the pressure from people might actually make them reconsider their options. And by calling people who don’t immediately agree with you as being pro genocide, they’re going to equate being anti genocide with your position, and they’re going to see anyone holding the position as being naive. Even though it clearly isn’t, but you’ve wasted the first impression they could have had to change their mind. It will not make people who don’t yet understand the issue side with you to actually make a change. Now every attempt after that is going to be harder and harder. And so their stance remains ever in the direction of supporting Isreal. And leadership will once more have to appeal to that side.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
Excuse me? It’s fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran’s responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US’s playground, whatever the US wants they’ll either support it or quietly stand aside.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it’s only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter’s minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
If you cannot see that Kamala’s campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden’s campaign and his current presidency, I don’t know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You’re right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that’s sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it’s very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn’t sound like the thing you want.
Ehh, I’m not even sure where you get this from. The EU will not just blindly support what the US wants, but we are very aligned diplomatically. In the EU there is sadly a similar struggle for different reasons.
But it does make your position a little bit more understandable if you truly think the US is somehow the leader of everyone else they are good diplomatic partners with. Fortunately, that is not the case. To answer the question, no, I was referring in part to Taiwan and Ukraine, but also allies with whom a larger majority supports Isreal, or those that have agreements with the US that hang on their stance.
Yes. And yet, that’s not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they’re currently at, they haven’t crossed that line.
And here is your fatal flaw. If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it’s not. It’s an uncomfortable truth, I’m sure. But not everyone has the same experiences as you do. Nor as your friends, nor as the people in your town, nor as the people in your state. You saw what happened to Joe Biden when his mental decline clearly became a reason to urge him out of the race. When the pressure is there, it’s hard to ignore. But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn’t what caused him to drop out, and no significant pressure has even manifested.
I don’t think people connect her with Biden’s genocide. Yes, she is complicit because there are things she could be doing to remove Biden from office, but most people don’t see the Vice President as actually all that important in deciding policy. I do not think attacking Biden on this issue hurts her at all, and that’s why she’s going to win.
Attacking Biden is, in fact, a good way to pressure Harris without hurting her chances at winning. He’s a fair target and it should be open season on his evil ancient ass.
Whenever they’ve retaliated in the past it’s always been very conservative and measured because they don’t want a regional war either. They understand that a regional war wouldn’t save Palestinian lives and would be extremely costly for everyone in the region, they’re not the problem here. Israel is the only actor trying to start more wars at this moment and you need to recognize that, rather than scaring yourself with Iranian boogeymen. Israel is the problem and Israel must be stopped, or war is inevitable.
There’s still several months until the election. It can, and will, continue to get worse. I don’t think we should find out where the breaking point is.
The uncommitted movement is a powerful force in swing states and donors know this - Biden being old is only part of the reason he was forced to drop out.
It’s like I said, I think Harris is going to be just fine. Dems believe, probably correctly, that Biden is a lightning rod that will distract voters away from Harris’s record on Israel and allow them to win this November. If they’re right, we can voice opposition to Biden’s racist genocidal policies without helping Trump win. We can’t afford to be silent.
So now that he’s out of the race there’s literally no reason to hold back. At this point support for Biden is 100% just support for genocide.
Sure, I can see the logic in that. I do think it will affect her and people are kind of expecting her to have the same stance as Biden even if he changes it. Unless she comes out to denounce it, which I highly doubt she will. But we can disagree on that and criticizing Biden for that is totally fine.
I mean, we’re having this conversation because you insisted Joe Biden was the issue. It has always been my stance that Israel is the problem, and kind of abusing the good will of the populations that supported them. So I’m glad to hear you seem to agree on that. But I do think you are giving Iran too much credit, they are not a boogeyman, which would imply they are actually harmless. They are a legitimately evil autocracy that does not care for people more than Israel does. Iran will definitely take the chance if the US would drop support for Israel. It is because of Israels support in large part from the US that they have not made rash moves, because they too have to balance their pushback on Israel and invoking a response from the US and allies.
I don’t think you should either. But I’m not so sure it’s set in stone if it will. We’re living in turbulent times.
Swing voters are pretty much by definition leaning more towards the Republicans than non-swing Democrats. And we just sort of agreed that Republicans are more in favor of supporting Israel. So I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to say these swing voters are more likely to support Israel than Democrats. More evidence of that is the fact I don’t think Kamala has spoken prominently once of Gaza since she became the presumptive and eventual candidate. Which she definitely would highlight if that would make her more favorable with swing voters. But there are seemingly more important issues that she’s addressing first, if she will even discuss Israel at all.
I agree. Biden can be a lightning rod for criticism instead of Kamala. But again, I don’t think anyone is really supporting Joe Biden that way anymore. I certainly haven’t seen such sentiment from the people you accused of being pro genocide. Support is very different from rejecting what they perceive to be inaccuracies or mischaracterizations. And the two shouldn’t be confused, nor easily determined if you’re going to assign the label ‘pro genocide’ to them afterwards. If you want to actually change things, attacking people will not make people with opposing views change their mind, and reasonable allies will abandon you. Even if you are right, you still need to convince people who think you are wrong. And assuming they must hold that position because they are pro genocide is just massively slashing your own tires.
Well, no, I insist that public support for Biden is the issue. Biden couldn’t do this alone. The real problem is that people fanatically support him despite his genocidal policies, which only ensures the genocide continues. What can I call that but pro-genocide?
And I do not buy into the idea that Israel is somehow a rogue agent that just keeps getting away with war crimes. Israel could not do what it is doing without US support, and the US would not do what it is doing if the masses stood up and demanded the genocide be stopped. We really do have the power to change things.
You seem convinced that nothing we can do can change anything. Deeply deeply cynical.
That might be true! Even if that’s the case, I don’t see why the US couldn’t strike a balance - stop arming Israel but also continue to pledge a response if Israel is attacked.
There’s a lot more the US could do after that (arrest Israel’s war criminals and seize their weapons and dismantle their apartheid system and empty their political prisons) but that’s all pretty unrealistic to expect from the US and I recognize that. But! An arms embargo is, I think, a demand we can make of our leaders and I think we have a duty to try.
And, because Democrats think the key to winning elections to to appeal to Republican-leaning swing voters, they constantly move to the right on foreign policy and immigration and trade etc. etc. I’m skeptical that swing voters are necessarily the key to winning! I still believe there’s a vast sea of untapped voting potential of people who hate both parties, but that a militant anti-genocide policy would draw them back into the voting process. Half the country doesn’t vote. Win their support and you can never lose.
You’re contradicting yourself. Does Biden have the support of right-leaning swing voters, or does not one support him anymore?
All I said was that Biden still supports genocide and that supporting Biden is pro-genocide, and this triggered a vicious wave of personal attacks and dehumanization by dozens of people. But, I don’t see how this is controversial. There’s literally no reason at all to continue to support Biden! We’re free to attack him as much as we want!
And yet? By calling out his genocide I have been told I am a MAGA Trump supporter (I’m trans, he and his cult are literally going to kill me), I have been told I am not taking this conversation seriously, I have been called a bot over and over, I have been told that it’s actually me that doesn’t care about genocide, and I’ve been fed endless snide sarcasm from people who seem to think I am stupid. Go look at what I’ve said and how I’ve been treated. This doesn’t look like people who are rejecting inaccuracies or mischaracterizations, this looks like a hate mob of Biden supporters who fucking hate me for holding Biden responsible for his support for genocide.
And if I wanted to actually change things I would log off and do something productive with my time. No one will ever be convinced by anyone arguing with them on the internet, and that was true before bots became good enough to fool people. I just have a horrible sickness that causes me to argue with people until I cry and hurt myself lol
I was here since the start before any such messages appeared, so you’re not fooling me. You started out with “He’s still doing genocide y’all”. An inaccurate and laden statement which you rightfully got a critical responses for, not because people support the policy. You followed this up by calling your critics pro-genocide, regardless of their actual position. I’m sorry, but you don’t exist out of context either, so yeah, people are kind of not going to like you in this thread. It’s why you don’t attack people out of the gate, I warned you about that in my very first message. Hostility often creates more hostility. I don’t necessarily condone that, but you have thrown a little too much dirt to be surprised about being dirty.
We haven’t even discussed whether or not I think we can do anything about it, yet you call me deeply cynical for a position I don’t hold. I do think more people in the US should be against the support for Israel. I do think the support makes Israel emboldened to commit genocide. I do think people can be convinced. But as I was trying to explain to you, I understand that other people look at different aspects and have different experiences to where they can be unaware of Israels atrocities, or are indeed willing to look away. And often those people are sadly needed for a majority that has chances of actually stopping the genocide. So they must be convinced to get the end result I desire, no more genocide.
It should be obvious that anyone you ask if genocide is okay, they will say no. But people can have irrational and conflicting beliefs, and to actually make them change their mind the worst you can do is to effectively say “you are a terrible person”, even if it’s effectively true. Because if they’ve rationalized themselves to accept supporting Israel, being called a terrible person only emboldens that rationalization. There exists no magic incantation that will change this. (And it should be said, calling the people who very well might share your opinion on all but your questionable remarks, makes you look really bad)
If you think you can get 50% of the votes in the US, I really urge you to start a party right now. Because by that logic both Democrats and Republicans could only hold 25% of the vote, so you could win in a landslide victory with the remaining 50%. But I think we both know that will not happen. But according to the data, ~66% voted in the last election. 34% is still enough for a victory, but that’s a tall order.
I want you to understand that I’m talking to you because I want you to be effective at getting your message across. Having commendable opinions but being terribly self destructive in ways of expressing them is so incredibly wasteful and will at worst create more support for the thing you are rallying against. Clearly you have the vigor to stand up for what your opinion is, but actually changing things means taking on constructive, calm and respectful dialogue, and doing what’s effective over what perhaps more morally clean in the short term, but because you didn’t actually change anything, morally dubious in the long term.