U.S. President Joe Biden and other world leaders have warned against Israel striking Iran's nuclear facilities over fears of further escalating the Middle East conflict.
Right because the following two things are the same:
A radical Islamist regime that has openly expressed genocidal intent towards the Jewish state, and Jews worldwide, and sponsors Islamist terrorists around the world, and has destabilized the entire Middle East and destroyed countries; and
The world’s only Jewish state with a total population of 9 million people that just wants to be left alone to live in peace but has been forced to fight for its survival since literally the day it declared independence.
You do realize this conflict predates the settlements, don’t you? By about 50 years.
The settlements certainly don’t help the situation, but they are nowhere near a significant root cause of the conflict.
We don’t need to go back to Abraham’s time. Israel and Palestine came to an agreement 30 years ago. Palestine recognized Israel and in return there was supposed to be a peace process leading to two states in roughly the 1967 borders. But Israelis kept building settlements. At this point they have short of a million settlers living in places such that a contiguous Palestinian state is impossible. This has completely delegitimized the moderate Palestinians as any kind of potent political force and has lead to radicals taking over in Gaza. This is absolutely a significant root cause of the current phase of the conflict.
They spent 30 years building FACTS ON THE GROUND which are now just the facts they have to live with. They shit the bed, didn’t clean up and kept shitting. Now the rest of us are supposed to be empathetic when they act surprised they got sick.
You don’t have a grasp of the history. You make it sound like the Palestinians were actively working towards peace and only became radicalized 30 years ago, which is simply untrue. The Palestinians have been radicalized since Arafat became Chairman of the PLO in the 1960’s. The PLO carried out their first terror attack years before the 1967 war, before Israel even came to occupy Gaza and the WB. The 1948 war was literally a war of annihilation carried out by several Arab countries (and thankfully they lost).
Even Arafat’s supporters blame him for walking away from the negotiating table at Camp David. Peace was in sight and he rejected it. Abbas was offered almost everything in 2008 and again they rejected it. Do you know why? Because they have never been interested in peaceful coexistence with Israel. Never. They have rejected every partition plan and every peace deal because nothing less than all of it is acceptable to them.
All of that is entirely irrelevant to the settlements. Nothing the Palestinians did justifies the settlements.
Let me put it differently. Let’s agree for the sake of argument that the palestinians so far have been stupid and unreasonable. And let’s imagine that tomorrow morning the Palestinian leadership and the entire Palestinian society has a miraculous conversion to “moderation”. Imagine we magically flip a switch in every last one of their brains and each and every one of them becomes a Kamala Harris Democrat that recognizes Israel as a Jewish state, and accepts a peaceful solution, with two friendly states side by side.
It’s plain to see that even in such an “ideal” scenario, the settlements that Israel built make any meaningful two state solution simply and plainly impossible. There is no territorial integrity, there is no cohesion, all the best land has been taken, water resources are gone. There is nothing for these Kamala Harris Democrat Palestinians to build a meaningful state with.
That’s what I mean when I say that Israel has fucked up. They have made the 2 state solution impossible. They are left with either going full genocidal fascist or a binational democratic state, with equal rights for all. Sadly, they seem to be going down the former path. And at some point, genocidal fascists do tend to get what’s coming to them.
That’s false, the Olmert proposal for example offered Abbas 95% of the occupied territories with a plan for territorial swaps. It’s a difficult problem for sure, but not an impossible problem. This would have been sorted out a long time ago if one side wasn’t driven by a genocidal narrative and holding on to a dream that if they just kill enough Israelis, they’ll eventually pack up and leave.
Israel has not fucked up. The Netanyahu government has made some mistakes, but the point is the Netanyahu government is a product of decades of failed attempts at peace. What killed the peace process for most Israelis was the second intifada, which is what they got in return for Oslo and Camp David. The next nail in the coffin was the Gaza withdrawal, which put Hamas in control of Gaza and gave Israel 15 years of rockets and terror incursions. The final nail in the coffin for peace? Oct 7, 2023.
But this is modern history and you have to understand it within the broader context of Arab nationalism and Islamist expansionism, which is the source of the Palestinian narrative described above. That’s why this conflict, out of all others, has persisted for so long and seems so intractable: because it all begins with the refusal to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
What an absolute load of horseshit, is that why they attacked the fucking UN today, got bored of easy targets like women and children? Sorry I mean Hamas operatives…
I support Jewish people, and the people of Israel. I do not support their ongoing genocide, landgrabs, and invasions.
If you support the genocide of the Palestinian people (note I did not say HAMAS, who can go fuck itself), and Israel seizing their land, then you might be the bad guys.
The only people “supporting genocide” are, ironically, the supposed peace activists who are screaming for intifada and cheering for Hamas and Hezbollah on our streets and college campuses.
Invasions? Do you mean when they retaliated against Gaza AFTER BEING INVADED on Oct 7? Or do you mean retaliating against Hezbollah, AFTER A YEAR OF HEZBOLLAH ROCKETS BEING FIRED INTO ISRAEL? Do you think that Israel should just sit back and let themselves be slowly destroyed attack by attack?
I think there’s a big difference between protecting yourself and your people, and killing 40,000 civilians while whatever the hell this is.
Love to see you have eaten the poised, miss-information campaign about the peace protests.
So, yes, Israel is absolutely committing a genocide. I for one am against genocides, Are you? How many civilians are allowed to death while defending yourself?
Its currently nearly 40:1. Is that ok? if so, what about 80:1? 200:1? 400:1? When is enough enough?
Do you know how many civilians died in WWII protecting the world from the Nazis and Imperial Japan?
And no, Israel is not committing a genocide. Claiming “40,000 dead civilians” doesn’t define a genocide. Besides, a large proportion of those “civilians” were actually Hamas fighters.
It’s frightening how many people just soak up terrorist propaganda. What are you going to bring up next? The alleged hospital bombing? The fake famine? The so-called “Flour Massacre?”
Have you not been following the news on this? There is an actual definition of genocide in international law.
"The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. "
South Africa will not be able to make their case, which is probably why they asked for an extension on the date to provide evidence. No rational person can conclude from the facts that Israel has demonstrated the intent to destroy the Palestinian people, in whole or in part.
Haha, you have just discovered the strong anti-Western, anti-Israel streak in Lemmy politics. I had to unsubcribe from the news forums because of it. Lemmy politics is pretty much the opposite of Reddit politics, and consciously so.
Left alone, as in “colonize” a bit more on the land they are stealing? Ah but we must understand Israelis, they just need a little Lebensraum to “defend themselves” from the people they stole land from.
Israel just need to “colonize” and expand on other people’s land by killing those already living there. They obviously just want to be left alone doing their “colonizing” and bringing civilization to otherwise barren lands.
I’d show you images of Israel expanding and taking more Palestinian land over the decades but you’ll probably say those are propaganda and that since Palestine is not recognized, killing their people and stealing their land is totally fine and in the line of wanting to be “left alone”.
Do you think The Ayatollas possessing nukes is a good thing for the world?
They actually don’t currently have nukes though.
This is just irresponsible warmongering from a dude who only has slogans and zero solutions.
Waiting for “Stop the nukes” to be added to his list of single-syllable talking points…
I’m getting flashbacks
Look, we all know the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence: https://youtu.be/2msQwpzatQc
I distinctly remember a nuclear deal. Whatever happened to it.
As bad as Israel owning it
Right because the following two things are the same:
If they want to be left alone, they should stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank.
You do realize this conflict predates the settlements, don’t you? By about 50 years. The settlements certainly don’t help the situation, but they are nowhere near a significant root cause of the conflict.
We don’t need to go back to Abraham’s time. Israel and Palestine came to an agreement 30 years ago. Palestine recognized Israel and in return there was supposed to be a peace process leading to two states in roughly the 1967 borders. But Israelis kept building settlements. At this point they have short of a million settlers living in places such that a contiguous Palestinian state is impossible. This has completely delegitimized the moderate Palestinians as any kind of potent political force and has lead to radicals taking over in Gaza. This is absolutely a significant root cause of the current phase of the conflict.
They spent 30 years building FACTS ON THE GROUND which are now just the facts they have to live with. They shit the bed, didn’t clean up and kept shitting. Now the rest of us are supposed to be empathetic when they act surprised they got sick.
You don’t have a grasp of the history. You make it sound like the Palestinians were actively working towards peace and only became radicalized 30 years ago, which is simply untrue. The Palestinians have been radicalized since Arafat became Chairman of the PLO in the 1960’s. The PLO carried out their first terror attack years before the 1967 war, before Israel even came to occupy Gaza and the WB. The 1948 war was literally a war of annihilation carried out by several Arab countries (and thankfully they lost).
Even Arafat’s supporters blame him for walking away from the negotiating table at Camp David. Peace was in sight and he rejected it. Abbas was offered almost everything in 2008 and again they rejected it. Do you know why? Because they have never been interested in peaceful coexistence with Israel. Never. They have rejected every partition plan and every peace deal because nothing less than all of it is acceptable to them.
All of that is entirely irrelevant to the settlements. Nothing the Palestinians did justifies the settlements.
Let me put it differently. Let’s agree for the sake of argument that the palestinians so far have been stupid and unreasonable. And let’s imagine that tomorrow morning the Palestinian leadership and the entire Palestinian society has a miraculous conversion to “moderation”. Imagine we magically flip a switch in every last one of their brains and each and every one of them becomes a Kamala Harris Democrat that recognizes Israel as a Jewish state, and accepts a peaceful solution, with two friendly states side by side.
It’s plain to see that even in such an “ideal” scenario, the settlements that Israel built make any meaningful two state solution simply and plainly impossible. There is no territorial integrity, there is no cohesion, all the best land has been taken, water resources are gone. There is nothing for these Kamala Harris Democrat Palestinians to build a meaningful state with.
That’s what I mean when I say that Israel has fucked up. They have made the 2 state solution impossible. They are left with either going full genocidal fascist or a binational democratic state, with equal rights for all. Sadly, they seem to be going down the former path. And at some point, genocidal fascists do tend to get what’s coming to them.
That’s false, the Olmert proposal for example offered Abbas 95% of the occupied territories with a plan for territorial swaps. It’s a difficult problem for sure, but not an impossible problem. This would have been sorted out a long time ago if one side wasn’t driven by a genocidal narrative and holding on to a dream that if they just kill enough Israelis, they’ll eventually pack up and leave.
Israel has not fucked up. The Netanyahu government has made some mistakes, but the point is the Netanyahu government is a product of decades of failed attempts at peace. What killed the peace process for most Israelis was the second intifada, which is what they got in return for Oslo and Camp David. The next nail in the coffin was the Gaza withdrawal, which put Hamas in control of Gaza and gave Israel 15 years of rockets and terror incursions. The final nail in the coffin for peace? Oct 7, 2023.
But this is modern history and you have to understand it within the broader context of Arab nationalism and Islamist expansionism, which is the source of the Palestinian narrative described above. That’s why this conflict, out of all others, has persisted for so long and seems so intractable: because it all begins with the refusal to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
“Israel wants to be left alone”
What an absolute load of horseshit, is that why they attacked the fucking UN today, got bored of easy targets like women and children? Sorry I mean Hamas operatives…
The person you’re arguing with is a Dark Lord of the Sith
Attacked the UN? WTF are you even talking about?
And yes, every single war has been started by Israel’s enemies.
At least be aware of current events if your going to chat shit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/10/un-peacekeepers-in-lebanon-say-israel-has-fired-on-their-bases-deliberately
He’s an 11 day old spam account.
I joined 11 days ago to engage in discussions about a topic that is of concern to me. I can see that I will have to lower my expectations.
Rather telling that you responded to this comment but not the comment giving you the source on the attack on the UN troops. Funny that.
LOL “attacked the UN”
Brainwashed dipshit
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/11/israel-attacks-un-peacekeepers-in-lebanon-why-its-such-a-big-deal
Keep quoting Al Jazeera, terror-supporting asshole.
Holy shit you people are insane
Youre exactly like a German in the 30’s drooling about Lebensraum.
Sick genocide supporting fuck.
Nice Holocaust inversion, idiot.
I support Jewish people, and the people of Israel. I do not support their ongoing genocide, landgrabs, and invasions.
If you support the genocide of the Palestinian people (note I did not say HAMAS, who can go fuck itself), and Israel seizing their land, then you might be the bad guys.
The only people “supporting genocide” are, ironically, the supposed peace activists who are screaming for intifada and cheering for Hamas and Hezbollah on our streets and college campuses.
Invasions? Do you mean when they retaliated against Gaza AFTER BEING INVADED on Oct 7? Or do you mean retaliating against Hezbollah, AFTER A YEAR OF HEZBOLLAH ROCKETS BEING FIRED INTO ISRAEL? Do you think that Israel should just sit back and let themselves be slowly destroyed attack by attack?
I think there’s a big difference between protecting yourself and your people, and killing 40,000 civilians while whatever the hell this is.
Love to see you have eaten the poised, miss-information campaign about the peace protests.
So, yes, Israel is absolutely committing a genocide. I for one am against genocides, Are you? How many civilians are allowed to death while defending yourself?
Its currently nearly 40:1. Is that ok? if so, what about 80:1? 200:1? 400:1? When is enough enough?
Do you know how many civilians died in WWII protecting the world from the Nazis and Imperial Japan?
And no, Israel is not committing a genocide. Claiming “40,000 dead civilians” doesn’t define a genocide. Besides, a large proportion of those “civilians” were actually Hamas fighters.
It’s frightening how many people just soak up terrorist propaganda. What are you going to bring up next? The alleged hospital bombing? The fake famine? The so-called “Flour Massacre?”
What is the criteria then to tell if Israel is committing genocide to Palestinians?
Have you not been following the news on this? There is an actual definition of genocide in international law. "The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. "
South Africa will not be able to make their case, which is probably why they asked for an extension on the date to provide evidence. No rational person can conclude from the facts that Israel has demonstrated the intent to destroy the Palestinian people, in whole or in part.
Haha, you have just discovered the strong anti-Western, anti-Israel streak in Lemmy politics. I had to unsubcribe from the news forums because of it. Lemmy politics is pretty much the opposite of Reddit politics, and consciously so.
I’m getting that sense…
Oh, they just wanna be left alone! That makes sense why they committed a genocide and have now instigated war.
What war did they instigate?
Left alone, as in “colonize” a bit more on the land they are stealing? Ah but we must understand Israelis, they just need a little Lebensraum to “defend themselves” from the people they stole land from.
Israel just need to “colonize” and expand on other people’s land by killing those already living there. They obviously just want to be left alone doing their “colonizing” and bringing civilization to otherwise barren lands.
I’d show you images of Israel expanding and taking more Palestinian land over the decades but you’ll probably say those are propaganda and that since Palestine is not recognized, killing their people and stealing their land is totally fine and in the line of wanting to be “left alone”.
What land are you referring to?
Its called an arms race, you build nukes I build nukes.