They gave meta information like IP to the government in Switzerland, where they are based, after the government forced them to with a court order. Not the encrypted mail, mind you, because they can’t do that, just the additional information they have on a user like email and IP.
Because of that, a lot of redditers on r/privacy think they spy on their users for the US government. It’s a stretch, yes, but you have to remember they take turns using the one brain they collectively have.
Not the encrypted mail, mind you, because they can’t do that
Just want to point out for anyone new that ProtonMail does not use E2EE for email headers. That means they CAN access your subject lines, to/from fields, and other email headers. That means they CAN be forced to hand it over to the government.
Subject lines and recipient/sender email addresses are encrypted but not end-to-end encrypted.
Personally I am disappointed in a lot of Proton’s wording about this. They frequently promise they can’t access “your data” and “your messages” when they do, in fact, store potentially sensitive data in a format they CAN access.
Yeah I agree, sounds a bit excessive. If that’s correct, it doesn’t sound like they’re reading your data and at the end of the day they have to comply with things like warrants. Thanks for the clarification.
It is all also very clearly stated in the information they must collect in order to provide their service. There should’ve been no surprises here, as you must assume that scenarios like these will happen eventually.
I guess the issue here is overselling the safety of the service. Wouldn’t rely on them encrypting the mail for you, for example. It’s probably fine if you treat it just like you would any other email service - assuming you’re fine with being unable to use a mail client at all on the free plan and using it in a weird roundabout way on the paid plans.
the issue is that they can’t defy the law without shutting down and going into jail. proton has given the tool the activist would have needed to protect themselves: the service has an official onion site, which would have made IP collection impossible, and they could have just said they can’t know it
Yes, that was exactly my point. You would not treat any mail service like they would cover you during your unprotected use, and Proton is not an exception. So I don’t understand why people are taking issue with them cooperating with LE - but I take issue with some other qualities.
Well, you don’t even need to provide an email or phone number when you sign up, so if you access the site via their onion address every time, they would have no information on you at all.
Privacy wise? Probably nothing. The company engages in shitty behavior, though, and will try to upsell you even if you’re a paying costumer. I switched to Tuta because of that, and then Tuta started doing all the same bs…
Wait, what’s wrong with Proton Mail?
They gave meta information like IP to the government in Switzerland, where they are based, after the government forced them to with a court order. Not the encrypted mail, mind you, because they can’t do that, just the additional information they have on a user like email and IP.
Because of that, a lot of redditers on r/privacy think they spy on their users for the US government. It’s a stretch, yes, but you have to remember they take turns using the one brain they collectively have.
Just want to point out for anyone new that ProtonMail does not use E2EE for email headers. That means they CAN access your subject lines, to/from fields, and other email headers. That means they CAN be forced to hand it over to the government.
Source: https://proton.me/support/proton-mail-encryption-explained
Personally I am disappointed in a lot of Proton’s wording about this. They frequently promise they can’t access “your data” and “your messages” when they do, in fact, store potentially sensitive data in a format they CAN access.
Yeah I agree, sounds a bit excessive. If that’s correct, it doesn’t sound like they’re reading your data and at the end of the day they have to comply with things like warrants. Thanks for the clarification.
It is all also very clearly stated in the information they must collect in order to provide their service. There should’ve been no surprises here, as you must assume that scenarios like these will happen eventually.
I guess the issue here is overselling the safety of the service. Wouldn’t rely on them encrypting the mail for you, for example. It’s probably fine if you treat it just like you would any other email service - assuming you’re fine with being unable to use a mail client at all on the free plan and using it in a weird roundabout way on the paid plans.
the issue is that they can’t defy the law without shutting down and going into jail. proton has given the tool the activist would have needed to protect themselves: the service has an official onion site, which would have made IP collection impossible, and they could have just said they can’t know it
Yes, that was exactly my point. You would not treat any mail service like they would cover you during your unprotected use, and Proton is not an exception. So I don’t understand why people are taking issue with them cooperating with LE - but I take issue with some other qualities.
some believe they (proton) are invincible and can do whatever they want. maybe because they think that’s what swiss privacy and swiss laws mean
If all they have on you is your optional backup email and your IP, I think they’re doing pretty well in the no data-collecting part?
Well, you don’t even need to provide an email or phone number when you sign up, so if you access the site via their onion address every time, they would have no information on you at all.
It’s proprietary.
Privacy wise? Probably nothing. The company engages in shitty behavior, though, and will try to upsell you even if you’re a paying costumer. I switched to Tuta because of that, and then Tuta started doing all the same bs…
I don’t think OP was trying to say Proton Mail is bad or insecure. Rather the opposite.
I would also like to know, lol.