• Juice@midwest.social
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    2 days ago

    There is a reason why 90% of politically active socialists are against adventurism. Maybe this one flies under the radar, it wouldn’t surprise me if the ruling class was as desensitized toward gun violence as the rest of us. It would also give us excellent ammunition if, over the killing of one CEO, there was suddenly all this social change called for by the capitalist class and outcry from the media, especially as our children practice active shooter drills at school. This guy was like the head of a company that is part of a much larger company that owns a bunch of insurance companies, and that CEO is still doing just fine. The insurance company is anecdotally approving more claims, but the system remains. We can’t say what changes will be, but they won’t be meaningful but in the short term, and they won’t last.

    “All these revolutions only served to make the state stronger,” is arguably the most important quote of Marx because it addressed how class concessions are just subsumed by the body politic and become part of the apparatus of oppression itself. Don’t be a sucker, get organized if you want to create lasting change

    • Uiop@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 days ago

      organization may however also lead to infighting, disorganization, insubordination and treason, look no further than the reform! party in the usa at the end of the last century. when one knows what one has to do, one has the means to do it, then doing it and only telling a minimal amount of people (at best 0) will always be a preferable outcome for achieving a small, personal victory.

      If one has a plan they should DO IT! JUST… DO IT!talking to others will a) improve the plan against certain unthought factors b) expose the plan to scrutiny, leading to longer planning thymes, leading to less action, c) expose the plan to exposure, resulting in arrests, resulting in failure

      Somethymes a movement needs some early victories to get going. Afterwards however it will need to cut itself loose from its beginnings and change tactics, yes. Partly, because, as you’ve said, the system adapts to the earlier strategies.

      but in my mind making the big evil afraid and making it flail around untill it fails is a preferable alternative to having it be able to play one as a chess piece in the big game of strife.

      Make it be afraid. Make it suffer under its own delusions. While it suffers from itself and focusses down the ghouls of its past, organize, enforce the ghouls, remember who the ghouls are. gain power. destroy power.

      Once humans are in power they corrupt. Not everyone to the same extent, but the longer the more is at least a strongly indicated tendency. Soo…

      • Juice@midwest.social
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        2 days ago

        That’s just it, they aren’t afraid. Also encouraging other people to do adventurism and potentially throw their life away is a disgusting, shameful thing to try and do. “Organizing can be inconvenient” so can prison and execution, not to mention the cascade of negative repercussions for the left, in addition to many others, that always come from widespread adventurism. I’m afraid you don’t know enough about the history of class resistance to see why you’re just pinning some hopes on a dream.

        Hoping someone else will solve your problem, someone else will pull the trigger, is wrong headed. Don’t pull the trigger yourself, create the conditions for a new way of living. There is no one who could be executed whose death will result in everyone getting free, high quality, gender affirming healthcare. Your first step isnt a step forward its a step back. But in the end we won’t know for sure until the history is decided stay tuned, and in the mean time educate yourself!

        Once humans are in power they corrupt.

        Corrupt what? Are you religious, because this is some christian mythology. This is why our movements must be democratic. Get a grip

        • Uiop@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 days ago

          Why aren’t they afraid? Because the system keeps everything JUST stable enough, year after year, while slowly eroding the good from the many. They needn’t be afraid, because they have protection, from each other, from below and from above. What happens when the realization hits, that their protection is only limited and easily ripped off?

          Yes, call me stupid will surely put YOU on a good pedestal.

          Organization is the only way to keep this amount of people on our planet living. getting truely rid of organization would be culling BILLIONS of people. Thats not what I’m arguing for, currently. If one wants an adventure, to borrow your words, one can certainly have some friends, but in every story of friends taking down the bad guy, there is one that does, or nearly does, betray the group. Singular hereos do not have to worry about that, at least.

          If one is in prison, one at leat has a roof above their head and daily slop. if one has already lost everything, what is there to loose in execution? one can keep their honor, reaching glory in the afterlife. Yes it wont help them with anything (*actually, thinking about it, if they are in pain, cant afford help, living being a fate worse than death…), especially not their loss, but there is hope for others at the end.

          I myself cannot do adventures rather well. There arw reasons for that. So the only way for me to change things is through getting others to do the adventure isn’t it? I help them on their quest, and I don’t betray them to certain forces. In the end I will have little gained and little lost, in most cases. However, betting on faraway dreams keeps the demons away. Just as gamblers do, one bets on the big win and ignores the big loss. Yes One can also set on the small wins and try to evade the small losses. Thats why I’m not yet completely out of the game.

          There needs to be certain chaos for revolution to win out. Revolution in a place and thyme of steady tracks will achieve nought. Creating the uncertainties needed is essential for eventual betterment. One has to pull the arrow back for it to fly forwards doesnt one? Taking a few steps backwards is essential in taking a few good steps forward.

          To hammer it home: as long as the capitalists are driving the carriage forwards, without looking scared, nothing will scare those beneath them. and if nothing is able to scare those beneath the top layer, and any layers below, the whole thing is steadily doing what it is.

          Now I ask you. what is easier: convincing all of the bottom rung of the hierarchy together or to shake up the very top? Surely focusing ones efforts on the very top achieves the most? In the USA hundreds of people are killed steadily, yet the system seems undisturbed. Is that not a disgusting state of affairs? is that how it should continue to be? In the USA hundreds, thousands of people are unable to afford education, treatment, a good life, their small, or their big dream, is that how it ought to be?

          What would happen if those at the top had their services denied? had their life denied? they’d push for change just as much. but lifes always been unfair and they’ve got the advantage. As such they have already taken care of every inconveniance, bare one.

          Yes executing one will not make the whole system fixed overnight. But where does that change? 30%? thirty percent of what? this list: https://www.forbes.com/real-time-billionaires/#6230f1ae3d78 maybe? the next bigger list? some other list of evil, slightly more hidden people?

          All in all barely a few hundred people? just how can one measure suffering? I dont know, but I know, but i know that a few hundred people is easier changed out than a few million. But one is casually and repeatedly done the other is not.

          “changing out the cleaner…”

          changing out the h-vac-repair man, chaging out the sewage-plant-worker, changing out the miners, changing out he poor people. Letting them die and replacing them. letting them fail and replacing them, because their nose doesnt suit you. truely a dream of might. the king is the king, the kings advisors are exchangeable. The kings cooks are easily exchangeable. The beggars in front of the kings castle are good for target-practice.

          Once humans are in power they corrupt. The whole system has changed because those on top have been exchanged? Nope, thats why one has to destroy any power one has willingly.

          You are right. There are no benevolent beings. no gods, no perfect people (Also no perfectly evil/bad ones). Some are worse, some are less bad, maybe the better ones are resistant, maybe they havent had the chance, mayve one doesnt see the bad, maybe they aren’t bad to you, maybe there are checks and balances keeping them in, well, check (which just means they havent gotten to show their full potential, since those checks are limits on power and corruptability).

          This is why we need to remove the currently “bad”, powerfull and corrupt ones, and replace them with new ones. So that they may tear down the hierarchy of power, so that it may be replaced by a new system. truely a revolution worth dying for.

          • Juice@midwest.social
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            2 days ago

            Where did I call you stupid? What is this, a reverse ad hominem? A passive aggressive strawman? I criticized harshly the action of encouraging adventurism, and the “are you religious” question was to point out confusion, not stupidity. I wish you wouldn’t assume I think the worst of you because we disagree. Even if I criticize you doesn’t mean I believe there is something inherent, some “stupid” quality that you have and I don’t. That’s a phenomenological fallacy. I don’t believe that things are, I believe that everything is becoming something else. So I am hopeful that you will learn from this event, and it pushes you to develop beyond your current limitations, which have led to my harsher criticisms. I used to have a lot of very confused ideas myself but I pushed myself to learn more and refine my ideas and ideals. Even in my confused notions, I can see the nugget of truth that I was clinging to, and I’ve learned to refine it and communicate it better. I’m sure there is some nugget of truth for you as well that remains unrefined, and if you learn to separate the bad ideas that form your base assumptions and warp your perspective, from the truth, then that will become your unique perspective and communicating it well will help others to find their unique perspectives. Everything is one thing. Obsessing about individualism is one of the main weapons wielded in the class war.

            But to your points I think your reasoning is purely idealistic and divorced from history and what is possible. As if Luigi was the first person to invent adventurism. Its good to be able to formulate your own reasoning, but you’re missing the step where you check your conclusions against the material world. Hopefully in your process of self actualization you learn to apply this step and improve your ability to draw meaningful conclusions from facts and not just rearrange them to suit your fancy.

            I hope you are never approached to help any adventurist, as you will surely have been targeted by a federal informant.

            • Uiop@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              1 day ago

              I am caught in an eternal strife between one thing and another. I like the position of not being locked into one “correct” way, having the ability to pivot. I too believe to be superiour to other people. I do however not think of my ideas as fully formed perfections. I dont quite yet know if you do think that way, but just pointing it out.

              What wonders can or can’t a single individual achieve?

              Theres just so much, but I’ll boill myself down to us prioritizing different things. I am advocating for a certain needed level of chaos, for the system to be able to be shook and subsequently changed, preferably by those who will improve the lives of all. While you, I think, try to protect each and every valuable ally and even extend your grace to your opponents. You value stability, even in the interim period, and prefer a slow, methodical way to get through change by using the proven systems. I however believe that these proven systems may need to be looked at regularely, maybe taken out a bit, given a scrub, some new oil… and then be put back into place with sone nice words and a comfy blanky.

              As for adventurism, or the more comertial form of adventourism, it really is just one of my more horrible idea-obsessions. I have several of these and discussing them is much more fun than not discussing them. I would rather like to do some once again, though I think it rather unlikely to get a good chance anyhow. And I think I am quite capable of evaluating the possible consequences to my actions. Or do you want to even forbid myself this capability? Surely not. Its more fun not thinking it through anyways.

              Often when talking to certain people in my personal life, they seem to adhere to the concept of truth, you seem to invoke said concept too. What is truth, is it measurable? absolutely not. I have done many-a-thing and not a single once have I stumbled over the truth just next to some Roots in the forrest floor. Truth is something made up. I forget which philosopher I am badly paraphrasing: Truth/power is a sort of currency, the powerful use their truth to create more specific truths, bending the world to their will in a certain sense. Most of the thyme one subordinates oneself to said truths, just because denying it is more destructive than helpful. I’m sorry, I can’t seem to quite get the edge of his arguments again.

              You personally seem to think that the material world holds the truth and that history can predict ones success or failure. You are not wrong, just to have said that, but you are also not right. There often is more than a Yes and a No in the world, so any “binary” approach to the “truth” will lead to “failure”. (So far I feel you and I are on a similar page) There however is also no ternary way of truths in this world. The Daoists call these the Daos, the ways of the world. Any finite number of ways of truth will inevitably reach an edge-case not fitting the previous models.

              You surely have heard of Descartes saying “I think, therefore I am.” that is an acceptable baseline for most of philosphy, that at least ones mind must exist, because at least that is currently doing a thunk. However there are acceptable versions of the world way into either direction. One says that a stone falls down, when let go, so that is a fact. and thus it is true. another says there is no way for anything to even provably exist, and thus nothing can be true. Where on (or off) this spectrum you want to place yourself is actually not for me to judge (though it would interest me). An important Condition one can apply is the contradiction. When ones theory of truth calls for stones to always fall down, one can just remove the down. Out there in outer space, where gravity is weak, possibly cancelling itself through multiple mass-bodies, a let-go stone and the hand which has let it go will hover next to each other till near eternity. Thusly having disproven one extreme? On the other side where nothing is provable nothing becomes disprovable, thus losing any meaning and many dislike that. dunno why. As to my personal oppinion, I usually are near Descartes, until I am driven into a corner, where I will revel in the simplicity of the undisprovable corner of inexistance. And if the other person has a better grasp of such far out ideas, then I can always mimic those blessed souls not burdened by constant overthinking and go feed some cats and touch grass.

              The discussions of this world truely are kept fun by the misunderstanding :) ~Paul Watzlawick said something similar

              There cannot be a truth, and there cannot be an untruth. thinking someone is right or wrong just requires infinitly less energy than finding each and every instance they’re wrong. THAN FINDING EACH INSTANCE THE’RE RIGHT. Being truthful in ones statements is quite the easy feat, but expecting others to do the same will only lead to sadness, or is that a generalization integrated by a worldview of generations-old half-truths. Half-truths which crumble under the slightest scrutiny, under the most mere of merecats, the slightest of slight edge-cases. And as a result of merecat-induced sleepiness I am only able of thinking about sleep and merecats. Thus the truth has become irrelevant. Since it wouldnt be helpful, even if it existed.

              Foregive my ramblings: any kind of truth can only be useful if another party has at least achieved a similar level of truth, all else is wasted. What can even be discribed, be helped by the truth? I cannot feed something with truth. I cannot heal. I cannot protect. I cannot do anything with a sufficiently pure truth. It would help ne to know which pill allieviates suffering, tough it wont help without knowledge of the underlying issue causing the pains, the possible negative co-effects with other pills, or longterm side-effects.

              What ridiculous truths people have held on over the years, all in favour of the end-goal, abandoned by future generations, recognizing the futility of truth in face of other factors.

              how many Self-Contradictions do I contain? How many do you? I can only ever ask questions, because there are no answers. I am so sorry.