To follow-up on the Reddit thread yesterday, here are a few elements that can be interesting to discuss.
Link to specific instances and apps rather than just saying Lemmy
Just quoting “Lemmy” or pointing to join-lemmy.org can lead to a very unintuitive and clunky experience, as people can just end up randomly on a very small and/or outdated instance. Recent post by a new joiner 9 days ago, they had to change server 2 times to get a satisfying experience: https://lemmy.world/post/24220536.
Using something like
"Lemmy has 42k monthly active users
- https://discuss.online/ if you want a server located in the USA (content is still accessible from any server, the most difference latency)
- https://sopuli.xyz/ if you want a server located in the EU
- https://vger.app/ if you want an app
Feel free if you have any questions"
Can already point them in one direction, and avoid them getting lost in the too many options.
If people want to debate the choice of those two instances, I’ll add my thought process in the comments.
The Lemmy feed looks as depressing as Reddit’s All, and how to mitigate that
Some feedback I received when promoting Lemmy the way above
Just checked out lemmy to see if it’s different from reddit. Im very disappointed lmao.
First post I see is a comic about cultural appropriation with an ifunny watermark. Next are several posts about the proton vpn ceo “going full maga.” And finally a post I saw on Reddit days ago that is ragebait making fun of the cybertruck.
Yikes. It’s the same exact thing.
–
Lemmy still has a pretty obnoxious tankie problem. Even if you block the .ml instance, pretty much every thread about US politics or world news on any major instance gets hijacked by the same handful of trolls and their associated vote bots. Hopefully this will become less of a problem as more sane people join, but just as a word of caution, be aware that you will be called western imperialist scum by a bunch of 14 year olds.
–
Lemmy is utter rubbish, it’s as if their entire userbase consists of the top layer of scum carefully siphoned off from the Reddit cesspool. It got the worst of the annoying political echo chamber and “very smart” argumentative users from Reddit.
I just clicked on half a dozen random Lemmy servers, and all of them had at least one link about Trump in the top 5 posts. Even ones that seem like they’re supposed to be about tech.
Normal humans want the Reddit of 10+ years ago back. We don’t want to use a different site colonized by the same modern day Redditors we loathe interacting with.
–
To be fair, you can’t say they’re wrong. Open https://discuss.online , by default you’ll be set on All - Active. Out of the first 9 posts you see, 8 are about T or M, the last one being a meme.
What I try to do in such instances is to give something like
"While politics are important, you can still very much block them. Here are an example of some communities that can interest you:
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/c/[email protected]
- https://discuss.online/c/patientgamers
- https://discuss.online/post/15026558 for 20 non-political communities"
I also wrote a long post about that issue that you can read here https://old.reddit.com/r/RedditAlternatives/comments/1fmuk7o/post_to_address_the_usual_criticism_about_lemmy/
As a side note, I recently started a discussion on [email protected] about a potential political-free instance for new joiners, feel free to have a look: https://feddit.org/post/6819084
Lemmy is too small, 42k monthly active users is nothing
Discuit, the centralized alternative to Reddit, currently counts 181 weekly active commenters: https://discuit.net/DiscuitMeta/post/NlAdOWAp
You can also mention that NodeBB is now federating with Lemmy:
- https://feddit.org/post/7035166?scrollToComments=true
- https://community.nodebb.org/topic/71fe3f89-361c-4716-a79e-de02f94b3113/test-from-lemmy-to-nodebb
That’s all for now, happy to discuss in the comments.
Note: if you’re not interested in promoting Lemmy, feel free to hide this post, you are able to do this on specific posts if your instance is running 0.19.4 and newer
To be fair, you can’t say they’re wrong.
Most of them are. Some of them are even plain old factually wrong, not just condescending or exaggerating.
It’s important to understand that many of these instances were raised by people who didn’t like reddit’s widespread US-defaultism (including people claiming reddit is left-of-center because it swings Democrat) and its tolerance of bigots and trolls. Now if someone wants to set up their own instances to clone reddit and keep all the bad parts, sure, all we can really do is ignore them or get ignored by them. But when those people complain that this is “a bunch of 14 year olds” with “vote bots” or a “political echo chamber”, that’s just plain old ignorant, or shocked that they’re suddenly in a place with a different culture and struggling to believe it’s mostly just normal nerdy people like reddit is.
I’m very new to the fediverse but I am trying to learn what exactly I am doing. I joined lemmy through a link my relative sent me and somehow I did not get to select an instance, it seemingly auto-assigned me to lemmy.cafe. Which, tbh it’s working out I think, but what did I do for this to have happened? I’m also on pixelfed and am awaiting an email from loops. Meta is too frightening to stay, I deleted TikTok and Reddit. I just long for the community I felt in those places.
I created Quiblr which acts as a client for all Lemmy servers. I’ve tried to remove some of the friction that comes with the Fediverse (including the sign up).
Check it out and let me know what you think. It sounds like you’re exactly the kind of user I built Quiblr for (i.e. folks who are familiar with big tech social media and are not familiar with the fediverse)
I joined lemmy through a link my relative sent me and somehow I did not get to select an instance, it seemingly auto-assigned me to lemmy.cafe.
Like spujb said, my guess is the link was directly to lemmy.cafe.
If you want to quickly browse around different instances, there’s https://join-lemmy.org/, which some people have said they avoided because they don’t want people joining the politically-stricter instances as a first impression. So I’d recommend settling in for a week on .cafe to get an idea of how this works, before considering if you’re having no problems with .cafe or if you’d like to explore other options. For example, if they have blocked any communities on other instances which you’re interested in (I don’t know if this is the case).
hi! i also am on the lemmy.cafe instance :) there’s not many of us but it’s very chill
as for what you did to have happened, your relative may have just sent you a link to lemmy.cafe?
that’s the cool part of fediverse: you technically don’t “join the fediverse” in the same way you don’t “join email.” Rather, you signed up for an account on a single server that can communicate with all the communities hosted between all the different servers. It’s kind of like how you might choose to make an account on outlook.com versus gmail.com—and you visit the site to go there.
The youngest couple generations don’t really do writing (or reading) they watch videos to learn things. Pixelfed.org just pushed Lemmy onto fourth place.
Promotion of Lemmy should be to millennials and older, say.
A thought that just hit me in the shower.
I don’t feel like lemmy is too small. It quite comfortably fills all my lazing on aggregator time without getting stale. The thing is, like many here, I’m a libertarian leftist politics nerd that’s into linux and self hosting.
That description describes a sizeable chunk of this project’s userbase so enough content is being posted enough to saturate the feed.
If you want the project to expand into other niches, you will have to post into the void about whatever you’re into. Seed forums with TV shows or photography or hiking or warhammer or whatever you’re into and encourage others to do the same.
All forums are dead at first but if you want people to come and talk about pottery, you’re going to have to make that forum cozy before it gets enough interaction to become self sustaining.
I’ve noticed that people forgot how long ago the Reddit blackout was (about 19 months ago?), and Lemmy has improved a lot since then. Back then Lemmy was like pre-alpha, super buggy, and servers were very unstable. And we have way more 3rd party apps/frontends now.
I still remember when federation was barely working. We’ve made good progress since then
Also, why not mentioning one instance when making that comment?
Honestly, there needs to be a setting for lemmy admins to specify the default comms displayed to not-logged and new users. Just the firehose of the /all or local is not particularly attractive to most people.
EDIT: Went ahead and opened a feature request
Agree. I’m of the opinion that the default view for guests should be Local, Scaled. Or alternatively, Local, Popular. But never All, and certainly not mixed with Active.
Isn’t that what /api/v3/community/hide allows? https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/35617930
Not really. That just hides it from /all. Just because not want new users to get dumped into /c/politics, or /c/slop, doesn’t mean I want to hide their existence from everyone.
The hard part is that for some people, News and Politics is actually what they are looking for. Others want only Memes and never not that, while still others want content types like Gaming or Arts and Crafts, etc.
So when Categories of Communities and/or Topic areas is implemented, this issue will be solved, but until then these are merely a best guess about what an “average” user desires to see, rather than allowing them to choose their own experience.
Sure. The suggestion I did for the devs is just to have another tab “suggested” which will be a feed of the preselected comms from the admins. Anyone can easily switch away from it
“Curated” would be a better term I think. Suggested feels like it’s personalised while it isn’t.
Thought process about discuss.online and sopuli as recommendations
There is no ideal generalist instance. If you open the top 20 instances (https://fedidb.org/software/lemmy/)
- Lemmy.world is too big
- Lemm.ee is federated with hexbear and lemmygrad, something that is not very welcoming to new users (see this thread: https://sh.itjust.works/post/28798607/15305964 )
- sh.itjust.works names contains “shit”, which can deter users: https://feddit.org/post/4255611/2825351
- lemmy.ca is Canadian-centric
- feddit.org, is German-centric (sidebar in German first, Matrix chat is in German, meta community is in German)
- dbzer0 federates hexbear
- programming.dev is topic-centric
- blahaj is queer-focused
- discuss.tchncs.de has a difficult name
- lemmy.sdf.org does not defederate anyone
- lemmy.zip is federated with hexbear and lemmygrad
- beehaw is way outdated
- infosec.pub is topic-centric
- aussie.zone is country-centric
- midwest.social is region-centric
I ended up with discuss.online and sopuli.xyz as they have
- neutral names
- long running history
- good downtime
- active admins
- defederate hexbear and lemmygrad
If people have other suggestions, feel free
join-lemmy needs to have a better interactive flow to select a server. What they have is difficult and slow to maintain and doesn’t take into account server stability or newness (new servers are more likely to stop working once the admin discovers they don’t like hosting, or they have a terrible mod experience). But the lemmy devs are not interested in either doing things like allowing servers to tag themselves, nor utilize sites like the fediseer which already does that. So we end up with a bad “join” frontpage which people like you end up just avoiding which goes to show how bad things are.
There used to be a very nice interactive lemmy server selection site at one point which guided you based on interest/subinterest as self-tagged in fediseer, but I can’t remember the domain anymore :(
There used to be a very nice interactive lemmy server selection site at one point which guided you based on interest/subinterest as self-tagged in , but I can’t remember the domain anymore :(
Yes, it rings a bell too but don’t remember it either :(
But the lemmy devs are not interested in either doing things like allowing servers to tag themselves
Indeed, that’s probably a whole topic altogether. If people want to try working on a better join-lemmy website, that would be great, but it seems like people are already spread too thin.
Yes, it rings a bell too but don’t remember it either :(
Ah found it: https://pangora.social/
Sadly it’s gone offline. sigh
Ah yes!
@[email protected] how come you took it down?
Nobody reported it as down to me, I can bring it back up
Been working on some other projects recently so havent really looked at that site much
Ah, well it’s down 😅 maybe it could be useful in onboarding users.
What is with hexbear and lemmygrad…why are people calling these out
Propaganda focused instances, with deranged users that attack anyone who tries to fact check and they are protectes by their admins/mods.
They support the USs enemies.
How’s Lemmy.cafe? I believe they defederate the Big 3 Tankie instances. Dunno what their downtime or admins are like.
I have my main alt there. It’s pretty good, but there was an issue with the thumbnails that got resolved a few days ago. Also, the instance is much smaller than the two others (64 users per month), so I sometimes have to subscribe to some medium-size communities before nobody did before. Federation can get a bit clunky at times too, and I have to pull myself some posts or comments to “unclog the pipes”.
Discuss.online has 140 users per month, sopuli 496
There is no ideal generalist instance. If you open the top 20 instances
[proceeds to list pretty much all good instances, and complains about hexbear]
…I’m curious, what is your definition of “generalist”? Because I suspect it involves “not punching nazis”.
“generalist”
Something that is not linked to a country, a theme or a demographic
Non-generalist:
- lemmy.ca, feddit.org, programming.dev, blahaj, etc.
Generalist:
- lemm.ee
- sopuli.xyz
- discuss.online
Not sure what you meant with “not punching nazis”
Single topic forums are still doing ok out there on the wider Internet. Create more well moderated, single-topic, federated forums, and then promote those specifically to users who care about those topics.
Don’t sell Lemmy to end users. Lemmy is a solution for admins. Sell the specific websites to end users.
Echoing this, with some slight adjustments:
Promote the specific sites/communities to people, and on sites that permit it, share links back to specific posts/comments that you found interesting/amusing/etc. from said sites/communities.
Reddit got popular off the back of changes to Digg and people mentioning/sharing stuff from Reddit there. I’d imagine TikTok also grew in popularity from people sharing stuff from it on other major platforms like Instagram/YouTube/Snapchat/Twitter, much as now RedNote’s growing in popularity from people mentioning it on TikTok and other platforms.
sites that permit it
So Bluesky nowadays, based on Meta and Facebook recent removal of Pixel fed and Lemmy mentions
Well, also maybe Reddit, unless they’re also removing/burying other social sites. Besides that, any messaging services one may use to chat with friends or others.
This link doesn’t work. There’s only 3 communities for patientgamers: world, shitjustworks, and ml
Some personal thoughts:
about the content when you first open lemmy: I joined reddit some time around 2015 and it was not exactly the most welcoming experience with the type of content you see by default either. Still, I had seen smaller communities with cool content and I joined anyway and just learned to use it enough to tailor my feed. Lemmy becomes much nicer after awhile of hanging out and discovering new and cool communities!
In my personal opinion the “Link to specific instances and apps rather than just saying Lemmy” part is the most important. Fediverse IS confusing when you check it out the first time. It took me awhile to make an account because people kept telling to choose an instance that fits you. I know it sounds stupid but it really kept me away from making an account for awhile.
I instance-hopped a couple of times because I joined smaller instances (the recommendation everyone gives you) that then disappeared / were abandoned by the admin. That was not a very nice experience. I know lemmy.world is too big, but honestly it is a very easy and nice starting point to lemmyverse (so is sopuli!).
Also: really appreciate the effort you are putting into growing lemmy, Blaze!
I instance-hopped a couple of times because I joined smaller instances (the recommendation everyone gives you) that then disappeared / were abandoned by the admin.
I already had this problem on PeerTube years earlier, so I played it safe with a bigger instance, at least for a main account (I also had one on gtio.io which was gone before the reddit API exodus). This is absolutely a real issue with people recommending small instances, but at the same time, it’s necessary to avoid recommending just one which gets overwhelmed and disables new accounts.
This is the best platform for constant live updates about what the people you don’t like are up to. Then there’s articles about everything that’s wrong in the world and also some memes - mostly political.
An official Android and iOS app called “Lemmy”. If you wanna go big, you need the mobile platform.
When you search for “Reddit” in the app store and it also shows an app for Lemmy, we are getting there.
Reddit is going to pay enough for this to never happen
We can flood the appstores then
Content is King. You can have a good chunk of people that manage to go through the UX issues, they will still leave if they don’t find what they want. The mirror bots (alien.top, lemmit.online) were meant to help with that, but the people here would rather complain about the post volume instead of learning how to follow only the subscribed communities.
Painless onboarding is second. Fediverser is meant to help with that, but no other admin has shown interest in adopting it.
A clear way to find-what-goes-where is third. My proposal to separate user/local instances from topic-based instances has been rejected here, even after I offered to put them under the governance of a wider admin group.
Now, I’m tired of this culture and small thinking. Fine if you want to be proselytizing and convincing people “at retail”, but this will not be nearly as impactful if we had a dozen people who had the courage to setup a Lemmy instance with Fediverser.
The issue with the mirroring, at least how it was done, is that it was too much content for not enough users, creating the feeling of a deserted mall. If my comment disappears in a flood of posts, it’s no better than when my comment disappears in a flood of comments (like it does on reddit). (Lets forget about the part when one guy started copying entire threads including their users, which was not well thought out)
A way of combining communities into “multilemmys” would be great. I can understand why there’s pushback for separating topics from users. A Lemmy instance is not just a basket for specific topics, it’s a expression of ideology, and as such ideological arguments about the moderation in your proposed structure are guaranteed. It also would reduce comments with minority viewpoints to a minimum.
A slow and steady promotion of lemmy is the best that can happen - from what i learned in the last year a slow and steady influx of people is preferred by the majority, and not a flood of people that can’t be handled by our culture.
I like efficiency too, but some things do get lost when speeding things up too much.
(Lets forget about the part when one guy started copying entire threads including their users, which was not well thought out)
That was me. ;)
And sorry to disappoint you, I thought about it a lot. Mirroring the entire thread was less about the benefit the (few) users that are here and more about the potential to bring the masses of Reddit users who are stuck there because they (rightfully) claim that they do not have any other place to find their niche content. Mirroring the entire thread was also a way to ensure that we were (a) breaking the monopoly on the conversation and (b) creating an incentive for app developers to create a hybrid Lemmy/Reddit client, that could read from Lemmy and post to both, which would effectively make the transition away from the siloed network completely transparent.
The one thing that I didn’t get to execute properly was that I should’ve completed the two-way bridging before enabling the full mirrors.
A Lemmy instance is not just a basket for specific topics, it’s a expression of ideology…
- This is booooooring. So boring. This is the kind of thing that keeps people away. To the absolute majority of people, social networks are about FFF: Friends, Family and Fucking.
- It’s not an exclusive option. If you are part of 5% of people who want to be in the small, niche group are still free to do so. The other 95% of people who just care about gorging in from the content hose would be perfectly happy by following from the larger topic-based instances.
A slow and steady promotion of lemmy is the best that can happen
This is what the Mastodon crowd would also say. Now they are seeing constant churn and watching Bluesky grow, and have to bury their faces in the sand arguing stupid things like “Bluesky might be winning, but they are not really decentralized”. Yeah, it is true. It’s not “really” decentralized. 99.98% of the world will say “so what?” and continue to use it.
I’m tired of consolation prizes and moral victories. I want the web to be free, and I want it to be free for more than just a tiny niche of ideologues. Slow and steady will not win against Big Tech.
I know that you thought a lot about it, but you came to the wrong conclusions. But hey, since you seem still pretty grumpy about all of this and nearly a year has come and gone, maybe try again? This time users at least already have a working blocking feature, i think that wasn’t a thing yet last time. If a free alternative comes out of it i’m all for it.
The one thing that I didn’t get to execute properly was that…
… you didn’t ask anyone if they would be ok with it, neither on the fediverse nor on reddit, not thinking about possible legal trouble for all federated instances which automatically copied the “property” (ugh i hate IP laws, but it is what it is) of reddit from your instance, opening them up to possible lawsuits.
… your actions would impact the existing structures, which flooded the “all” channel - which made you demand that everyone else change their usage patterns to filter out the spam you created.
… the existing lemmy codebase was probably not performant enough for what you were planning anyway - damn, there are instances that can barely handle federating with lemmy.world; had all of this worked as you planned, i’m pretty sure that the fediverse, or at least most of lemmy would have come to a screeching halt.
This is booooooring.
To be honest, i am perfectly fine if the people who just want to flood their brain with content stay somewhere else. These people have a plethora of choices to get their dopamine flowing, and with pixelfed there is now one that grows pretty fast in the fediverse too.
It’s not an exclusive option.
But it creates a chilling effect, if the main community for a specific topic is under control of people who might not be as open or even just interested as needed. All discourse is ideological - a discussion about fascism will look very different depending on who has the last say regarding whats acceptable to say.
Mastodon’s issues, in my opinion, stem from something else - the name. Mastodon is a really crappy name. I tend to keep an open mind about most things, but i bounced off that name hard. I would choose a service named Bluesky over one named Mastodon 9 times out of ten even if it’s not really decentralized. Maybe now with the transfer to a new non-profit someone thinks of a snappier name that’s marketable.
i hate IP laws, but it is what it is
It is what it is because we are too afraid to challenge them.
which made you demand that everyone else change their usage patterns to filter out the spam you created.
I really don’t get this argument. Browsing by “all” is akin to drinking from the firehose, people are not using the affordances that the software provided from the very beginning and then the problem is with those who are bringing content to the network?
the existing lemmy codebase was probably not performant enough for what you were planning anyway
Au contraire!. One of the reasons that I was creating so many different instances was precisely to avoid concentration of communities in a single instance. In Lemmy’s currrent design, the communities are the chatty agents. Every comment and post becomes a message broadcast by the community. The reason that LW has become problematic in the overall network is less about the amount the user it has and more because of its communities.
But it creates a chilling effect
I just disagree, here. In fact, it feels like the opposite is the problem here. I feel like the Fediverse is so concerned about being a place for minorities and outcasts that it only accepts fringe opinions.
Mastodon is a really crappy name.
May as well be, but completely irrelevant. There are a dozen other projects providing microblogging and a Twitter-like experience. All of them failing to appeal to a more “normie” crowd.
This is booooooring. So boring.
If you are part of 5%
And yet it’s the point. If you just make Lemmy yet another place for the commercialized majority, all that results in is yet another cicle of people who care getting pushed out and have to create a new platform elsewhere. Wasted effort. Rinse and repeat.
You want the web to be free? Then you have to guard against the effects that make it unfree, one of which is the firehose of users who only have a mentality of “consoom” and who think “the internet” is the tiktok button on their smartphone.
Sorry, I reject the premise. The cartoon does not make sense in a decentralized/distributed system.
Lemmy/Mastodon/“The Fediverse” are not isolated places, but an ecosystem that can sustain many different niches.
A Lemmy community is a place. A topic-focused instance is a place. The minority here shouldn’t be worried about any tyranny from the majority because they can always have their boundaries established and they can choose how permeable they are.
Just a thought I’m having, but rather than just spamming Reddit with Lemmy links maybe we should promote it more on Linux type areas, at least people coming from there will find their niche content here.
Why not promote piefed?
@[email protected] OP answered here: https://feddit.org/comment/4286281 (the lack of mobile apps, was the answer)
