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ID: WookieeMark @EvilGenXer posted:
"OK so look, Capitalism is right wing.
Period.
If you are pro-capitalism, you are Right Wing.
There is no pro-capitalist Left. That’s a polite fiction in the US that no one can afford any longer as the ecosystem is actually collapsing around us."
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jesus christ these comments are terrible
What is Finland though? Social democracy seems pretty good but still fits in with capitalism as far as I can tell
Since people don’t work for free and some people have more money than others, finland is obviously an extreme right wing faschist oligarchy where people live in miserable slavery and needs the proletariat red army invasion like right now. Wouldn’t even be hard for a landlocked nation. The capital Reykvetsvhik would fall in minutes thanks to the liberated people welcoming their saviors.
Yes im American, how could you tell? /S
Whatever social safety nets and programs they have will be dismantled as Western capitalism devours itself. As is happening all around Europe
Can you point to any sources or are you just making it up?
We already see a lot of talk of Cutting back on social spending in favor of military spending.. There’s also the pension and retirement changes most of Europe has already implemented to some degree. It’s likely we’ll see changes as drastic as what the UK are doing right now in the coming years, specially if the war in Ukraine doesn’t go the way of NATO.
So there is nothing saying that it will happen and that all welfare will be gone.
Will we be worse off for a while? Yeah, Europe isn’t in a great situation now with the fairly recent COVID outbreak, economic problems, the attempted invasion and ongoing war in Ukraine, energy problems, and climate change. While the future isn’t all rainbows and unicorns, it isn’t as bleak as you made it in your earlier comment. There isn’t anything pointing to the total collapse of welfare and/or the entire economy.
The changes in pension spending all over Europe are caused by demographic changes, not capitalism. There are more and more retirees becoming older and older, while the working population stays the same or shrinks. A socialist state would have the exact same problems to pay for that.
Neoliberal, just like the rest of the “socialist” nordics (E: having socialised aspects to the state and or economy, or even being a “social democracy” does not socialism make), which are all on the exact same trajectory as the rest of us, only a few years behind.
Finland still pollutes the world at unsustainable levels, exploits the global south for raw materials and cheap labour, and is on a downwards trend to fascism like all of Europe. Liberal democracy only has one conclusion, and it’s fascism.
No lies detected.
I think it’s important to clarify that markets and the use of money are not exclusive to capitalism. Under capitalism, the point of markets is to accumulate money absent of any actual project or goal, and money is the way the capital holding class keeps score. In other systems, the point of markets is to connect people who have some item with people who need or want that item and money is the means of exchange. Markets are fine for distributing excess materials and labor, once people’s basic needs are met.
Definitely something people forget when talking about money in general. Capitalism warps the meaning of “value”, money is just the closest we have to display a certain value in a tangible form. In itself, money is merely a tool for universal exchange of goods. A tool that’s unfathomably useful no matter the system it exists in.
Imagine we treat money like US citizens treat measurements. “Yeah, I’d like to buy these produce for about the value of 1 middle-sized football field”. What.
Markets can efficiently allocate resources and they also foster competition. That enables decentralized innovation and optimization.
A major error of many leftists is to see markets as undesirable. There are always markets. Rightwingers often confuse an unregulated market with a free market, which is very misleading. Markets need regulation in order to be free.
Markets are fine for distributing excess materials and labor, once people’s basic needs are met
You can achieve that for example by having the market for housing and food be dominated by publicly owned enterprises.
Politically speaking, I don’t believe there’s such thing as “right” or “left” except in the relative sense. Even then it’s questionable.
Edit: I’m really curious about what people downvoting think it fundamentally means for there to be an absolute political “center” from which there is an objective “right” wing and an objective “left” wing. Furthermore, I’d like to know what advantages this model has that makes you value it so much.
Right and left is a very rough but easy to understand model. In the US it represents the two big parties somewhat okay. You can also put political ideologies on this scale:
fascism - conservatism - liberalism - social democracy - socialism - communism
Centrism is more related to the Overton window, so what’s currently accepted by society as acceptable mainstream discourse. That means the center can include conservatives, liberals, and social democrats. However as the Overton window changes, centrism also adjusts. Centrism strives to represent a supermajority majority consensus.
I agree, politics aren’t a line where some are in the right, some in the left and the center is some kind of mythological beast (if they are we are screwed, but they aren’t)
Politics are complicated, politicians are simple. Capitalism isn’t an ideology it’s an economic system, it’s as good or as bad as the mechanisms put in place to govern/control/rule it. It’s supposed to be free but it can’t be because no one can’t trust corporations, it’s also not supposed to be controlled by the State but when they inject money in it that’s what they are doing.
Capitalism can work in any kind of environment, and fail too.
Personally I believe democracy is failing, technofeudalism is coming in hard for it. In my country we replaced nobility with politicians and they are the caste, the president is the King, if you defy the party stand you are kicked out, they claim to be socialdemocrats but all the social aspects are worse than 5, 10, and 20 years ago and although keynesian economics plays a part on the reason I believe it’s democracy’s fault.
Capitalism isn’t an ideology it’s an economic system
Well, it’s both. All economic systems are ideologies with specific values and concerns.
it’s as good or as bad as the mechanisms put in place to govern/control/rule it
This implies that economic systems can’t be good or bad in themselves. But every implementation of capitalism (or any other economic system) is going to reflect that system’s values, and those values can be judged to be good or bad. So I think it’s reasonable to label different economic systems as “good” or “bad”, so long as you precisely define the system and its values before judging it.
To people using this as a reason to not vote: It’s going to be capitalism. You have a choice between free for all capitalism with fuck the environment and fuck the workers (GOP), or regulated capitalism with environmental protections and workers rights (Dems). If you don’t vote or vote third party, you just voted for the free for all one.
What fucking dem party are you talking about?
Lmao. “Capitalism is right wing. Period.”
Braindead.
Your eloquent way with words convinced me op is wrong goddamnit. /s in case your braindead ass can’t understand sarcasm
Lmao. “Braindead.”
Braindead.
So where do Co-ops fall, one where all the workers own everything equally and vote on hiring and firing etc?
Socialism. Plenty of models that use or aspire to that system, especially when it’s part of a larger capitalist society and one can’t expect the workers to change it all.
Few large coops are truly equal partnerships or that democratic though.
Generally speaking, what prevents it from falling under capitalism is non-transferable ownership stakes. Otherwise the workers can sell their stake and the system inevitably declines into capital interests hiring employees instead of a partnership.
coöps are cool, but we can’t just have coöps. their liberatory potential is cancelled out by the fact that they still participate in capitalism and they still need to turn a profit.
Even if the labour of individuals might be slightly transformed by having a vote over the methods and aims of production, the very nature of co-operatives as institutions for the production of commodities renders them a revolutionary dead end. Even enterprises seized by workers during struggle and turned to cooperative production face a dead end if the broader struggle across society does not continue to move forward.
Isn’t a co-op just an individual organization where the workers have already seized the means of production and share it fairly among themselves? With every worker having a say right? Sounds like socialism on a small scale to me.
“Pro capitalism” and harm reduction are not the same thing. Some form of capitalist-like economics will exist until we achieve post scarcity economics. The best we can do until then is work towards that end, while also working to minimize the harms imposed by material and labor scarcity.
This is just another stupid purity test by people who care more about their own righteousness than actual action. You can call my praxis whatever you want. I don’t care.
We’ve been post-scarcity on a global scale for decades if you count the essentials. We’ve been producing all the food that’s needed to feed the world, and that’s with only 2% of people working on agriculture in the developed world.
The reason for housing shortages is also due to policy, not because we somehow don’t have the resources and labour to build enough.
Everyone is so eager to upheld their extreme positions, that the real work, that need to happen in the middle, by people that work together and are willing to compromise, never gets done.
To be honest, I stopped paying attention years ago. The negative effects of getting pissed by all that stupid shit going on far outweighs the positive change I am able to create. I can’t even be sure that my point of view is right. Why even bother…
Ignorance sure can be bliss.
Ignorance sure can be bliss.
If you’re privileged enough, meanwhile your ignorance and apathy impact those of us who aren’t so lucky.
As for
the real work, that need to happen in the middle, by people that work together and are willing to compromise, never gets done.
I wonder why that might be…
If you could just understand that creating the narrative of you against them doesn’t help at all. Don’t you see how you are pushing everyone away that doesn’t think the same as you?
Now I am the asshole too. What a joke…
A compromise wouldn’t be between the extremists on one side and the rationalists on the other.
It would be between the rationalists on both sides.And being a centrist doesn’t mean you take the exact middle point between two extremists on every issue anyway.
It’s about weighing up the pros and cons of both arguments, and deciding on a solution that minimises the cons of each side.
This is why Biden was centrist at best
Biden is a right-winger. Liberalism is right-wing, and has never been anything else.
Centrism can be argued to exist, but the right wingers insist it’s the “radical leftism” of social democracy.
Does anyone call Biden a social democrat?
but the right wingers insist it’s the “radical leftism” of social democracy.
That shouldn’t surprise us. The capitalist order only allows for the existence of two (supposedly) opposing ideologies - liberalism and fascism - that in reality is complementary to each other when it comes to maintaining their precious status quo.
So it stands to reason that fascists should cast liberals as the “Radical Left!” - that’s the ideology they are taking over from as liberalism is failing to maintain the status quo. It’s failing in it’s role as “good cop.”
Capitalism is the fundamental belief in private ownership. That I can own a factory, a store, a restaurant, and therefore be entitled to the profits produced from them. Modern capitalism is inextricable from consumerism, from business, and from stock exchanges.
Capitalism is any resource or good harvested or produced that is not shared by all who produced it. Capitalism is the idea that some labor is more deserving of the fruits of production than other kinds of labor. Capitalism is violence against the working class. Capitalism is the means by which a new ruling class was created over the past 200 years that presently controls the entire world while utterly ravaging our environment and wasting more resources than we literally every could have thought possible.
You are NOT a leftist if you support capitalism. You are ANTI-WORKER if you support capitalism. If you want to support workers and if you want to support progressive leftist causes, ORGANIZE. Join your local anarchist community. Agitate, push leftist politics. Start mutual aid networks for vulnerable workers in your community. Support unionization efforts. Support striking workers. Participate in civil disobedience. Show up at protests. Organize demonstrations.
The world has never been changed by accepting the crumbs they threw at our feet. It was changed by those who refused to bow their heads. By the communities who resisted oppression and fought for their fellow workers. By people who fought for us all to live better lives. Count yourself among them.
Capital means money. Capitalism is an economy that is centered on money. Socialism OTOH centers the economy on the people.
You may want to read up a bit, and stop using socialism as an umbrella term. Socialism as in European social democrats, traditional socialists, Communists? Any of the other variations? Because both Social Democrats and Communists use the Socialist term.
Meh, I don’t necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but don’t like black/white dichotomies (though I’m personally anti-capitalist). Unions most definitely care the businesses they work for make money. The more money the better, since union members can bargain for more. They have incentive to be pro-consumerist and to protect their business/industry. Even at the expense of others.
Unions are workers coming together to advocate for their rights. I don’t know what you mean by the unions having an incentive for companies to make more money. Companies making more money does not translate to increased wages for workers. It translates to increased profits for shareholders. And unions do not own companies. Unions are a form of collective action against the capitalist ruling class. Workers who are a part of unions are making commitments to each other to fight for their rights as a group. They have nothing to do with what capitalist ceos or shareholders do. Not unless a union has been corrupted and is being manipulated by ruling class forces.
I am not a syndicalist, but I do think that the widespread unionization of workers is objectively a good thing. Tenants unionizing against their landlords, workers unionizing against their bosses, the working class as a whole unionizing against the ruling class.
I also push back against this notion of capitalism not being a hard and fast specific ideology that takes specific actions at the expense of workers. It is the truth. In countries that are more socialized but still maintain capitalist systems, less capitalism is still an improvement for the material conditions of workers. Private ownership of the means of production is still problematic even if there are more regulations from local government. Those things could still be collectivized and made worker owned so that everyone can have the fruits of production. And so that everyone has the same political power as everyone else.
Companies making more money does not translate to increased wages for workers.
In a unionized company with periodic collective bargaining, it definitely gives workers the potential to earn more money, if the union is doing its job right.
But, overall I agree with you. The potential drawbacks to unions are small potatoes compared to their real benefits. I think they’re one of the most powerful ways for the working class to take power back from the parasitic owning class.
Keynesian economic policy resulted in unprecedented prosperity for 60 years. It ended by Reagan’s trickle down supply side economics.
Seems now there’s a false dichotomy between supply side economics (which is an obvious failure) and communism (which was an obvious failure).
Crazy idea, maybe we should consider using economic policy that was proven to work? I guess that makes me hated by both the “right” and the “leftists” (two peas in a pod). So where would that put me in your made up political spectrum?
I remember reading somewhere that one of the main reasons for the USSR’s failure was that they immediately shot down any idea that had the tiniest bit in it that could be interpreted as capitalism-related. Even a suggestion that’s 100% communist values but was using some capitalist-sounding terminology would get immediately disqualified and place it’s supporters in hot water.
I think the USA - even if not as extremely - is doing the same thing but from the other side.
With such a mindset, “using economic policy that was proven to work” is outright impossible. Any policy that works (and not just in economy) will need to address the problems raised by all major ideologies - because even if an ideology got the solution completely wrong, at the very least that problems it was born from are real. Refusing to acknowledge these problems on ideological basis will not make them go away.
Kneejerk rejection of forbidden trigger words is rampant today as well. Liberals are rejecting “gray area” concepts the way conservatives have rejected science. It’s a binary world where you’re either a hundred percent right or a million percent wrong.
You’re getting close, but you’re still not quite there. The solution isn’t to address all of the concerns of all the ideologies since that would be impossible. The solution is for people to realize that ideology is the problem. When we get to the point where we realize capitalism and socialism are tools that are good for different purposes we could have a healthy economy and we’d all be prosperous. But as long as we continue think in ideological terms which centers around creating false dichotomies that prevent us from using the best tool for the job we’re always going to be living in a failed economy.
We’d be no better off living in a failed socialist economy run by the ideology obsessed than we are living in a capitalist economy run by the ideology obsessed.
In the end politics is always tribal, ideologies are just rationalizations made by a tribe to make them feel like they’re the rational ones while the other tribes aren’t. It’s all bullshit.
The solution isn’t to address all of the concerns of all the ideologies since that would be impossible.
I disagree. Completely solving all the problems is indeed impossible, but it should be possible to address them. Or, at the very least, acknowledge them. At least the major ones.
And I do agree that ideologies should be treated as tools. More specifically - tools for analyzing the existing and desired structures and for framing the problems. There is no reason not to try viewing the world through the lens of each major ideology in order to get the most complete perspective. These views may not agree, and that’s fine - the disagreements may provide some interesting insights.
It’s not perfect, but it’s they best we’ve been able to make work with so far. What he have right now is unbridled capitalism which isn’t good even for those at the top because it will lead to total economic collapse. Capitalism works best under tight regulation. Which we don’t have right now.
Left and right are completely arbitrary semantic categories so you can define them however you like, as long as it has a clear and internally consistent definition.
I’ve even seen ancaps who have almost the same definition as I do but completely reversed which is pretty funny but also gives me a headache.
left = not capitalism
right = capitalism
this definition has formed since more or less (…) since the french revolution and has consolidated along with capitalism itself.
Woll, not that far back, after all the terms came later, but it was fairly set by the turn of the century.
Liberté, égalité, fraternité
