The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue (which I believe is a completely manufactured issue) because we haven’t talked about it enough to iron out a reasonable position.
The general pop is not accepting of trans people in professional sports. I don’t think that will change anytime soon but trans people playing school sports is far more accepted and I think its a much more convincing to fight on the issue of trans people participating in school sports for fun and social reasons. It draws away from the shit narrative that trans people are trying to compete at the highest level and I don’t think anyone can reasonably argue against it since casual sport commonly mixes gender.
Who gives a shit about what is happening in non-professional sports anyways? It’s kids having fun. Puppies chasing a ball. It is the least important thing on the planet.
Republicans want trans people banned from playing in sports, this includes school sports. It was a major focus for their election marketing. Republicans used the example of Trans people playing in sports at the highest level. In these debates left winger pundits failed to present convincing arguments compared to the right wing pundits because the focus was on top 0.00001% of athletes where biological differences could be seen as unfair.
Because of this, the majority of Americans (66% of adults) now believe trans people should not play in gendered sports.
I am suggesting that instead of running from the discussion, we can respond and present a convincing argument on why trans people SHOULD be allowed to play in gendered sports.
My suggestion for a more convincing argument is that we focus on school sports because they precisely “kids having fun” and no reasonable person would fight to remove a 12 year old from playing with her friends on the netball team. Except this is exactly what is happening in some places and at threat of happening nationwide.
Jesus Christ, just let private sports organizations sort it out between themselves, their participants, and their audience. Why should this be the government’s problem when everything’s on fire and there’s microplastics in our brains and lungs? I mean really, this isn’t hard stuff. People are people, let them have their rights. If you don’t want them to have their rights because you don’t like one of several groups they’re a part of (likely without any say in the matter)? You might be a shitbag.
You don’t like that the NHL decides not to be trans inclusive (fuck idk, did they)? Write em a nastygram and pull your subscription. You don’t like that they decided to be trans inclusive? Maybe stop being such a fucking piece of shit, but nobody’s holding a gun to your head, unsubscribe and send them your tear-stained letter about how it ruined your life. This is a niche issue that people can work out between themselves without the stupid government inserting itself into the middle of things.
Who are you arguing against? I’m pro trans. I’m not I’m favour of government deciding this. But the government has decided to take away this right and now that forces people to fight (rhetorically) to restore it. I’m only making the case on how I think this subject should be approached.
If you want to go and arguing trans people in pro sports again go ahead but the right loves that. Its the only position where they have an argument.
I’m saying that should be the position: “unlike the republicans, we want a government small enough that it isn’t micromanaging how sports organizations run themselves. We believe that the organizations, their members, and their audience are competent adults who can work out their rules for themselves.”
It’s a non issue. Professional and high level competitive sports like international council and Olympics addressed this YEARS ago. With data and research to support their current positions and recommendedations.
Its a non issue but its still something on peoples minds thanks to right wingers constantly bringing it up and writing policy on it. Normally id say its fine to ignore it but since they’ve written policy on it left wingers need to reverse that and get protections in place.
Hopefully in my part of the world the challenges based on discrimination and rights violation go through. Once that reinforces that no, you can’t do these things, it becomes a closed topic.
I think the issue is just a distraction to split people. It reminds me of that one episode from IASIP. It also reminds me of bikeshedding. Like how many people are even trans athletes who rank high enough for this to even matter? Like 1 or 2? It feels like a disproportionate amount of interest to discuss something so trivial.
Yes it was a distraction but its enshrined in law now. Its also still being used as a wedge issue. Yes there is almost no trans people competing at a high level but thay doesnt matter to most people. The right will blast the example over and over and over forcing people on the left to defend it. Its better to not defend it and to instead talk about participation in school sports (which is what the law actually impacts). I’m only suggesting engaging the topic became we need to convince people that repealing the law is a good thing and enshrining protections is even better.
I usually point out that the Olympics have allowed trans contenders since 2004, and if it was the cheat code it’s asserted to be, the entire Chinese and Russian teams would be trans people. That usually gets people thinking “huh, maybe this is some bull”
My issue is that that is a good argument and should be convincing it doesnt convince people. When they hear that they hand wave it then get swayed by a more emotional argument of a random example of a trans women doing well in a sport. I’ve been watching how right wingers do media and there is a tatic i think should be co op’d. Basically if they try and say “trans people shouldnt be allowed in sports because a trans boxer broke someones nose” You just completely ignore that and say “the legislation prevented a trans person from playing in causal after school netball team how the fuck is that fair.” Then hopefully they take the bait and response to what you’ve said and everyone watching forgets the 1st point and hangs on the 2nd point which is fair easier to defend because it makes sense to people emotionally.
You can’t give an inch is the issue. Not only because we’re talking about fundamental human rights (trans people should just accept not being permitted to engage in sports?) but because it only shifts the Overton window onto the next thing with arguments now strengthened by capitulation.
If you permit transphobes the position that trans women are dangerous in sports it becomes easier to point to that and say “see, they are also dangerous in [new domain of contention], the progressives even agree!
My point is that you arent giving up on that point you’re avoiding it. Its not a popular point and if you try to argue it you lose in the minds of the average person. By avoiding the issue and talking about stronger examples like Trans people being humans who want to play sport to make friends and have fun you get a much stronger position to argue from.
You can’t logically argue your way out of bigotry. They don’t care whether they’re actually correct or not about trans issues. They already wanted to harm us and remove us from society where possible, and will find any reason to do so. See: the bathroom debates.
I’d rather people just stood up for us at all than act like they need to make good points in order for us to exist. You’re all playing kickball and we’re the ball.
Its not about presenting a logical argument. I think at this point we’ve seen that doesnt work. Its about presenting an emotionally convincing argument. Shifting the focus to causal sports is more likely to convince the average person that its fine. This does two things it prevents the conversation shifting to extreme examples and it plants the seed for conversations about trans participation in competitive sport.
The left is getting killed on the trans sports issue (which I believe is a completely manufactured issue) because we haven’t talked about it enough to iron out a reasonable position.
The general pop is not accepting of trans people in professional sports. I don’t think that will change anytime soon but trans people playing school sports is far more accepted and I think its a much more convincing to fight on the issue of trans people participating in school sports for fun and social reasons. It draws away from the shit narrative that trans people are trying to compete at the highest level and I don’t think anyone can reasonably argue against it since casual sport commonly mixes gender.
Who gives a shit about what is happening in non-professional sports anyways? It’s kids having fun. Puppies chasing a ball. It is the least important thing on the planet.
Republicans want trans people banned from playing in sports, this includes school sports. It was a major focus for their election marketing. Republicans used the example of Trans people playing in sports at the highest level. In these debates left winger pundits failed to present convincing arguments compared to the right wing pundits because the focus was on top 0.00001% of athletes where biological differences could be seen as unfair.
Because of this, the majority of Americans (66% of adults) now believe trans people should not play in gendered sports.
I am suggesting that instead of running from the discussion, we can respond and present a convincing argument on why trans people SHOULD be allowed to play in gendered sports.
My suggestion for a more convincing argument is that we focus on school sports because they precisely “kids having fun” and no reasonable person would fight to remove a 12 year old from playing with her friends on the netball team. Except this is exactly what is happening in some places and at threat of happening nationwide.
Jesus Christ, just let private sports organizations sort it out between themselves, their participants, and their audience. Why should this be the government’s problem when everything’s on fire and there’s microplastics in our brains and lungs? I mean really, this isn’t hard stuff. People are people, let them have their rights. If you don’t want them to have their rights because you don’t like one of several groups they’re a part of (likely without any say in the matter)? You might be a shitbag.
You don’t like that the NHL decides not to be trans inclusive (fuck idk, did they)? Write em a nastygram and pull your subscription. You don’t like that they decided to be trans inclusive? Maybe stop being such a fucking piece of shit, but nobody’s holding a gun to your head, unsubscribe and send them your tear-stained letter about how it ruined your life. This is a niche issue that people can work out between themselves without the stupid government inserting itself into the middle of things.
Who are you arguing against? I’m pro trans. I’m not I’m favour of government deciding this. But the government has decided to take away this right and now that forces people to fight (rhetorically) to restore it. I’m only making the case on how I think this subject should be approached.
If you want to go and arguing trans people in pro sports again go ahead but the right loves that. Its the only position where they have an argument.
I’m saying that should be the position: “unlike the republicans, we want a government small enough that it isn’t micromanaging how sports organizations run themselves. We believe that the organizations, their members, and their audience are competent adults who can work out their rules for themselves.”
Ok I understand now, thanks
It’s a non issue. Professional and high level competitive sports like international council and Olympics addressed this YEARS ago. With data and research to support their current positions and recommendedations.
Its a non issue but its still something on peoples minds thanks to right wingers constantly bringing it up and writing policy on it. Normally id say its fine to ignore it but since they’ve written policy on it left wingers need to reverse that and get protections in place.
Hopefully in my part of the world the challenges based on discrimination and rights violation go through. Once that reinforces that no, you can’t do these things, it becomes a closed topic.
I think the issue is just a distraction to split people. It reminds me of that one episode from IASIP. It also reminds me of bikeshedding. Like how many people are even trans athletes who rank high enough for this to even matter? Like 1 or 2? It feels like a disproportionate amount of interest to discuss something so trivial.
Yes it was a distraction but its enshrined in law now. Its also still being used as a wedge issue. Yes there is almost no trans people competing at a high level but thay doesnt matter to most people. The right will blast the example over and over and over forcing people on the left to defend it. Its better to not defend it and to instead talk about participation in school sports (which is what the law actually impacts). I’m only suggesting engaging the topic became we need to convince people that repealing the law is a good thing and enshrining protections is even better.
I usually point out that the Olympics have allowed trans contenders since 2004, and if it was the cheat code it’s asserted to be, the entire Chinese and Russian teams would be trans people. That usually gets people thinking “huh, maybe this is some bull”
That’s another good point!
My issue is that that is a good argument and should be convincing it doesnt convince people. When they hear that they hand wave it then get swayed by a more emotional argument of a random example of a trans women doing well in a sport. I’ve been watching how right wingers do media and there is a tatic i think should be co op’d. Basically if they try and say “trans people shouldnt be allowed in sports because a trans boxer broke someones nose” You just completely ignore that and say “the legislation prevented a trans person from playing in causal after school netball team how the fuck is that fair.” Then hopefully they take the bait and response to what you’ve said and everyone watching forgets the 1st point and hangs on the 2nd point which is fair easier to defend because it makes sense to people emotionally.
You can’t give an inch is the issue. Not only because we’re talking about fundamental human rights (trans people should just accept not being permitted to engage in sports?) but because it only shifts the Overton window onto the next thing with arguments now strengthened by capitulation.
If you permit transphobes the position that trans women are dangerous in sports it becomes easier to point to that and say “see, they are also dangerous in [new domain of contention], the progressives even agree!
My point is that you arent giving up on that point you’re avoiding it. Its not a popular point and if you try to argue it you lose in the minds of the average person. By avoiding the issue and talking about stronger examples like Trans people being humans who want to play sport to make friends and have fun you get a much stronger position to argue from.
You can’t logically argue your way out of bigotry. They don’t care whether they’re actually correct or not about trans issues. They already wanted to harm us and remove us from society where possible, and will find any reason to do so. See: the bathroom debates.
I’d rather people just stood up for us at all than act like they need to make good points in order for us to exist. You’re all playing kickball and we’re the ball.
Its not about presenting a logical argument. I think at this point we’ve seen that doesnt work. Its about presenting an emotionally convincing argument. Shifting the focus to causal sports is more likely to convince the average person that its fine. This does two things it prevents the conversation shifting to extreme examples and it plants the seed for conversations about trans participation in competitive sport.