That would be .world the entire last election year telling people to shut up about Palestine and vote blue
Iāll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote āblueā because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote āblue.ā The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote āblue,ā to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didnāt care about Palestine, and thatās why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when itās happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. Youāre not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I donāt know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out āthe .ml general consensusā by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience itās not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didnāt get banned for wrongthink yet and itās not the first time.
Just donāt be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe Iāve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. Iāve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if Iām more comfortable in the ātankie-runā spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and Iāve seen them actually attempting to address it when itās brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) Iāve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender itās going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didnāt care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like
Yeah, thatās the problem. Youāre operating off āmany othersā instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldnāt be saying this stuff.
A lot of what youāre saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. Iām pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that Iām not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what Iāve observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming theyāre all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I donāt even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that āvote blueā contingent youāre talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.
Now though weāre talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden weāre not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US āteamā, in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Yāall have a fantasy that it existsā¦ you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who donāt care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how ācondescendingā was super important to assign weight and value to, but āsnatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOTā was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, Iām not into it.
If I come across a group of people all using the same made-up name for an instance Iām on, Iām going to associate them all together. ātankie triadā mudslinging is why Iām responding with this dynamic that youāve identified. Turnabout is fair play.
You made the original accusation of a .ml hivemind, hence my wide-ranging explanation, because thatās what it took to convey my point.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. ā¦ If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, Iām not into it.
If youāre tired of being my interlocutor Iām happy to disengage. I was only explaining my objection to your original assertion, I provided my perspective.
IDK, maybe itās fair to say that theyāve realized that Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war at this point. They do seem to have developed some acceptability for the anti-Putin point of view, at least, Iāll give them that.
You seem like you took āhivemindā as pejorative, which I guess is fair. But all I said was that lemmy.ml in general has a consensus view about Ukraine and Xinjiang. No?
I have not very many things positive to say about her other than she would probably not be as catastrophic as Trump is.
Somewhat normal, but Jesus Christ look at all the āremoved by modā
Misogyny:
Ableism:
Theyāll censor calling Ukraine a genocide. I donāt like hearing that kind of talk either. Itās a war, theyāre terrible and a nonstop fountain of violence, but itās not an ethnic cleansing campaign.
Can you elaborate on what the issue with this one is?
Accusing China of doing a genocide was a Trump term 1 hobbyhorse carried over by Biden just like how they didnāt cancel his tariffs from then either.
The people pointing out āthe .ml general consensusā by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russiaās invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if theyāre somehow not āin favorā of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:
I donāt think this is them trolling you, (ā¦)
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it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china ādumbfuckā
Iām actually primarily a .ml user, (ā¦)
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I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.
I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but Iāve pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.
Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (ā¦)
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The āanswering questionsā sticks out, because thatās what theyāre referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- itās not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, thatās just internet slang. I didnāt see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if theyāre not browsing local.
I could just ignore it but I feel like thatās not the way. I donāt really feel like ceding the narrative space to them even if 99% of the people reading understand that theyāre full of shit about it. I think most people have just moved on from wanting to engage with it.
I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and itās something Iām working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since youāre banned, Iāll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why youāre going to get a response reflecting that.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass
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It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way itās not jingoism to express that knowledge.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO
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Itās a common anarchist/communist position in all sorts of countries to oppose military alliances like NATO, not an example of russian jingoism- but I would also agree with their assessment that this war has been the result of a protracted civil war thatās been happening since 2014. Post 2022 is that civil war bubbling over to include Russia directly.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination
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Forced conscription is wildly unpopular no matter where you are, itās part of why people are opposed to wars in general.
āNazi Government that the US props upā, āpogromsā from the previous comment- I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights Iāve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
Arenāt you in favor of self-determination? I really wish things had simply de-escalated and followed that track rather than this nightmare. Anyway, none of this is jingoim.
conclusion:
spoiler
Iām actually trying to be impartial, my takeaway is it looks like youāre just being overly antagonistic in the entire exchange. Your premise seems to be that theyāre fostering an insular culture because they censor truth-speakers like yourself, letās go back to the exchange that seemed to kick this off:
How Trump backed away from promising to end the Russia-Ukraine war in 24 hours
Ceasefires broadly speaking are going to be a process thatās going to involve violations on both sides due to all sorts of reason until the situation stabilizes, in this case via diplomatic solution hopefully.
Nakoiochiās response is not jingoistic here either, I asked earlier in this essay if you support self-determination, you might also recognize that āgoing homeā might involve some staying to protect the separatist republics.
I might as well address the ban here too:
spoiler
I frankly found your iran/north korea comment in the log very hard to parse in the first place, but I did want to raise this exchange:
I get that this was sort of a low energy back and forth jab, but the reason they clapped you was because you basically jumped to (in slightly more elegant words) saying āwhat are you RUSSIAN?ā at someone giving you a goad, and then it kind of spiraled after.
re: calling someone Russian for naysaying you-
Among Russians, weāre not all going to have the same opinions, thereās plenty of Russians (expats in particular) who would tow a line which conforms a lot more towards yours for example. Thereās no need to start calling out ethnic groups just because you feel like youāre in a propaganda space that you need to defend. Thatās my read on why they responded with a ban, I will grant itās a bit heavy handed considering itās an offsite comment.
From what Iāve gathered in my time is thereās a lot of Americans on the site rather than Russians. They have a lot of people on the site who are more interested in curating a comfortable space rather than having an active presence in this āpropaganda spaceā and would prefer continued defederation- they said as much in the last federation referendum, I donāt think thereās a coordinated propaganda effort at play.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what itās worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what itās worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
Yeah, Iām completely fine with a serious discussion about it, because you seem like youāre capable of a serious discussion. So, right from the jump, the first comment they made:
That immediately to me is super offensive. Probably more so than pig shit pictures, definitely more so than me being condescending to them. Why? Because it is deliberate lies in service of killing. I still dealt with it factually, and I indicated Iād be open to a factual exchange. You want me to be nice about it also? Why would I do that? That doesnāt seem like itās necessary.
I have no idea if that person actually thinks that Putin will honor a cease-fire, whether randomly unilaterally announced or not. It is clear to me that he will not. Actually, you seemed to acknowledge that they know he wonāt (saying that all of these cease-fires tend to fall apart and not be honored). There are plenty of cease-fires that get honored, definitely plenty that arenāt broken on a huge scale right away on purpose.
Bottom line: Iāve known people from Ukraine. Iāve talked with them about their country getting torn apart, people they know getting killed, with an endless stream of lies coming from the other side about the reasons why and the things they can do to stop it from happening. I just donāt have patience for it. My whole SA analogy is in absolutely no way frivolous. I think itās an absolutely spot-on way of expressing the horror of Russia claiming theyāre only blowing up apartment buildings and hospitals because someone might be trying to resist them or give a security guarantee, and they didnāt like that, so they have every right to keep killing until they feel like stopping. And, someone on Lemmy saying the answer to that all is to stop arming Ukraine so they canāt fight back anymore. I think itās disgusting, and I donāt think Iām required to be nice when explaining why.
I donāt think anyone on Hexbear has any right to request that someone not be āoverly antagonisticā when they speak to them. For obvious reasons. The whole framing reeks of privilege and dishonesty, of creating rules for other people without any pretense that youāre planning to follow them yourself.
I do think that some of the Hexbear people are just confused and going along with the herd in terms of their beliefs and behavior. The whole propaganda framing is pretty powerful. Calm conversation is āsealioningā and itās bad. Dissenting voices are conflated with bigotry, even if they have nothing to do with it, and so banning dissent is āprotecting the spaceā from bigotry and just standing up for the oppressed which no other instance will do. Of course. There are all these words that get redefined as other different words, and all sorts of facts that arenāt true that are repeated so aggressively and often that they start to get accepted, and so these things they believe and do start to make sense within the off-kilter light theyāre seen in.
Nakoiochiās response is not jingoistic here either
Yes it is.
There are two narratives about shelling in Donbas:
That Ukraineās Nazi government was randomly shelling civilians in Donbas and Russia tried their best through good means to put a stop to it, and eventually, they had no choice but to invade.
That Moscow funded separatists to start a mini-civil-war in Donbas and then blamed the resulting death on an imaginary Nazi government in Kyiv.
I know that several times Iāve asked people who told me the first narrative to back it up, and they couldnāt. They would send me sources that said one thing claiming it said something else, send me random Youtube videos that didnāt actually prove anything, that kind of thing. I donāt actually know whether it is the second narrative thatās true, or whether itās sort of a ātruth is somewhere in the middleā type of thing. Itās hard to say, at least for me with as much as Iāve looked into it. But I definitely have seen several people who said it was the first thing and found out afterwards that they were talking purely out of their ass.
Uncritically saying that Moscowās narrative is definitely true is jingoistic. And actually, dealing with people who disagree by simply shouting them down in a pack is more or less a key component of jingoism to me. The fact that Moscow says the first narrative is what happened means absolutely nothing to me, since they generally lie about all kinds of things constantly. I touched on that in that big conversation (with no substantive response, go figure). Iāve never heard anyone outside of that bubble say thatās what happened. And, like I said, even if it did happen exactly the way Moscow claims it did, that wouldnāt excuse three years of mass killing in Ukraine. Theyāve killed more Russian-speakers now, probably a hundred times over, by sending them into the meat grinder or just semi-accidentally bombing their homes in the course of the war, than anyone ever claimed had been killed in Donbas.
If someone is ethnically Russian in eastern Ukraine, and theyāre unhappy with the Kyiv government, there are means to deal with that other than starting a civil war.
I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights Iāve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
This is a great example of what I was talking about. Itās just lies. The underlying fact is true, the court did order Ukraine to pay some people because of what happened in the burning of the trade union building, but itās being summarized in a wildly misleading way. On purpose. To tell lies to justify slaughter.
I would actually really recommend that you read the actual judgement that theyāre summarizing here in this way. You tell me whether this page you linked me to is summarizing what the court actually found in an accurate way.
Like I say: Iām fine having a factual discussion about it, but I donāt see why I would be obligated in any way to be nice to someone who doesnāt want that and is also willing to be 10 times more offensive than I am when theyāre on the other side of the disagreement. To me thatās not offensive, itās just fairness.
Iāll only speak for myself: I was extremely vocal about Palestine and the horror of the genocide there, while also recommending that people vote āblueā because Trump would make that genocide somehow even much worse while also adding many additional horrors to the world.
Absolutely nothing was solved simply by refusing to vote āblue.ā The problems were made much worse. That is exactly why I was recommending to vote āblue,ā to avoid that happening. This weird strawman where people didnāt care about Palestine, and thatās why they wanted Kamala Harris to win, is totally fucking weird.
Also, the people pointing out that the .ml general consensus view is completely fine with genocide when itās happening in Ukraine or Xinjiang absolutely have a point. Youāre not anti-imperialist, if you are generally in agreement with the .ml hivemind (I donāt know if you are or not, just going by other interactions with people there).
The people pointing out āthe .ml general consensusā by running a smear campaign are not exactly operating in good faith or opposed to imperialism, they just have a preferred team (the US + co).
From direct experience itās not a monolith, earlier today I made a post on hex shitting on Putin with 50+ upvotes, I didnāt get banned for wrongthink yet and itās not the first time.
Just donāt be weirdly xenophobic/misogynistic is more the vibe Iāve picked up on. I never understand when people go in looking for a fight or stir shit somewhere then act surprised when the response is to shut it down or mock them. Iāve had it happen to me plenty just for voicing my opinions earnestly in liberal spaces.
You may think that it speaks negatively of me if Iām more comfortable in the ātankie-runā spaces as opposed to the liberal ones, but a large part of it is because they have a much lower tolerance for bigotry/misogyny/transphobia in general than the rest of lemmy and Iāve seen them actually attempting to address it when itās brought up. (on hexbear at least, .ml is more of a boys club) Iāve even talked shit about one of the admins here for failing to address his transphobic comment history- as it stands if nutomic does ever post in /c/transgender itās going to be a race between me and marcie to ban him from it.
So again, not a monolith.
re: voting, The democrats were acting unbelievably condescending from the start of the genocide, that the issue was going to go away in 6 months because people would forget. It may not seem like it to you, but from my position (and many others) it absolutely looks like they didnāt care and were telling people to shut up and get in line.
Yeah, thatās the problem. Youāre operating off āmany othersā instead of just talking to me specifically about what I specifically did and had issue with and my point of view on it. If you actually had any familiarity with what people were saying on lemmy.world and why, without getting filtered through this bizarro-world lens of how .ml views it, you wouldnāt be saying this stuff.
A lot of what youāre saying (not a monolith and so on) is completely valid. Iām pretty sure I very explicitly acknowledged that when I said that Iām not aware of your specific viewpoint on it, just speaking in general about what Iāve observed. Also, you started out by more or less accusing lemmy.world of being a monolith, going beyond assuming theyāre all the caricature view to saying they all believe things that no one in the non-monolith believes. I donāt even like lemmy.world, but I spoke up guessing that I would have been included in that āvote blueā contingent youāre talking about, trying to speak directly about what I think so we could talk about it.
Now though weāre talking about Hexbear and tankie-run spaces and transphobia and Putin. And all of a sudden weāre not talking about the lemmy.world people, but aiming much more justified criticism at the actual Democratic candidacy. Maybe the whole galaxy of digression is my fault for throwing in a dig at the pro-imperialism people on the triad and inviting a response. IDK, I just brought it up because it just makes it hard to take them seriously. The people who prefer the US āteamā, in terms of the State Department and support for Israel, is nonexistent on lemmy.world. Yāall have a fantasy that it existsā¦ you know what? I just had another attack of perspective.
This whole conversation is a waste of time. If you want to talk to me about why I say the people you imagine who donāt care about Palestine are nonexistent on lemmy.world, we can. If you want to talk to me about how voting for Kamala Harris was absolutely the right thing to do, we can do that. You can try to justify in the light of current world events how helpful it was to refuse to vote for her, how ācondescendingā was super important to assign weight and value to, but āsnatched by ICE and sent forever to CECOTā was less important. If you just want to change to a variety of other topics, Iām not into it.
If I come across a group of people all using the same made-up name for an instance Iām on, Iām going to associate them all together. ātankie triadā mudslinging is why Iām responding with this dynamic that youāve identified. Turnabout is fair play.
You made the original accusation of a .ml hivemind, hence my wide-ranging explanation, because thatās what it took to convey my point.
If youāre tired of being my interlocutor Iām happy to disengage. I was only explaining my objection to your original assertion, I provided my perspective.
I said that lemmy.ml has a consensus that genocide in Ukraine and Xinjiang is okay.
Check this out (search date range limiting is broken maybe? IDK, you have to talk to the developers):
https://lemmy.ml/search?q=xinjiang&type=Comments&listingType=All&page=1&sort=TopWeek
As for Ukraine:
https://lemmy.ml/search?q=ukraine&type=Comments&listingType=Local&page=1&sort=TopWeek
IDK, maybe itās fair to say that theyāve realized that Russia is the aggressor in the Ukraine war at this point. They do seem to have developed some acceptability for the anti-Putin point of view, at least, Iāll give them that.
You seem like you took āhivemindā as pejorative, which I guess is fair. But all I said was that lemmy.ml in general has a consensus view about Ukraine and Xinjiang. No?
Any conversation about Kamala Harris?
I have not very many things positive to say about her other than she would probably not be as catastrophic as Trump is.
Misogyny:
Ableism:
Theyāll censor calling Ukraine a genocide. I donāt like hearing that kind of talk either. Itās a war, theyāre terrible and a nonstop fountain of violence, but itās not an ethnic cleansing campaign.
Can you elaborate on what the issue with this one is?
one of the links included this:
Accusing China of doing a genocide was a Trump term 1 hobbyhorse carried over by Biden just like how they didnāt cancel his tariffs from then either.
Hereās the kind of thing I was talking about:
https://ponder.cat/post/2492263
100% of Hexbear users trying to justify Russiaās invasion, and saying that the US should cut off aid to motivate Ukraine to sue for peace (as if theyāre somehow not āin favorā of peace, being the ones that got invaded.)
You might or might not agree with my take on the opinions presented there from the Hexbear side. But that unanimity of viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia, combined with total disinterest in engaging about talking it through on the merits and demonstrating that their arguments are based in reality when someone disagrees with them, is what I was talking about.
I started here so as to get an understanding, going to remark on a few things I saw:
I donāt think this is them trolling you, (ā¦)
spoiler
it reads like an earnest response and your reply looks like an overreaction. It just looks like you might have replied to the wrong person or misinterpreted the meaning of the comment? The comment reads to me as speculating on the reason for Trump flip-flopping, not making a value judgement besides calling the trade war with china ādumbfuckā
Iām actually primarily a .ml user, (ā¦)
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I started using .ml because I like to get a variety of views and everyones propaganda for a given situation so that I can make my own critical assessment.
I do hang out in their comms and even help moderate one but Iāve pretty much only ever lurked there to get an idea for the vibes and it feels weird to be lumped in together as me representing them. Maybe if you frame it as they have an instance where they allow comments (like mine) made by reckless individuals (like me) to be made without moderation it would be more accurate.
Really not a fan of SA analogies being used frivolously tbh, but you do you- (ā¦)
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The āanswering questionsā sticks out, because thatās what theyāre referring to as JAQing off elsewhere- itās not a hexbear specific term, nor is sealioning, thatās just internet slang. I didnāt see this thread posted anywhere else on hexbear to drive engagement, they just have relatively high traffic and users will be showing up in federated threads if theyāre not browsing local.
I feel like this kind of tips your hand a bit for the engagement. I get the impulse to assume bad faith, I do it often and itās something Iām working on tbh. Anyway, might be a moot point since youāre banned, Iāll get to this in the conclusion, but I think you were being overly confrontational, also going in treating this as a narrative space to be fought over going is probably why youāre going to get a response reflecting that.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: shelling donbass
spoiler
It is verifiable fact that the cities in the separatist region were getting routinely shelled basically since 2014, I for one recall constantly hearing about that in that time period unless your conclusion is that they deserved it or that it was just crisis actors or some influence campaign something. Either way itās not jingoism to express that knowledge.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: opposition to NATO
spoiler
Itās a common anarchist/communist position in all sorts of countries to oppose military alliances like NATO, not an example of russian jingoism- but I would also agree with their assessment that this war has been the result of a protracted civil war thatās been happening since 2014. Post 2022 is that civil war bubbling over to include Russia directly.
Regarding viciously imperialistic jingo in favor of Russia: Self determination
spoiler
Forced conscription is wildly unpopular no matter where you are, itās part of why people are opposed to wars in general. āNazi Government that the US props upā, āpogromsā from the previous comment- I want to link here this - Ukraine Found Complicit in 2014 Massacre By European Court of Human Rights Iāve just seen too many swastikas over the last 3 years to say this is anything but an unfair assessment.
Arenāt you in favor of self-determination? I really wish things had simply de-escalated and followed that track rather than this nightmare. Anyway, none of this is jingoim.
conclusion:
spoiler
Iām actually trying to be impartial, my takeaway is it looks like youāre just being overly antagonistic in the entire exchange. Your premise seems to be that theyāre fostering an insular culture because they censor truth-speakers like yourself, letās go back to the exchange that seemed to kick this off:
Ceasefires broadly speaking are going to be a process thatās going to involve violations on both sides due to all sorts of reason until the situation stabilizes, in this case via diplomatic solution hopefully.
Nakoiochiās response is not jingoistic here either, I asked earlier in this essay if you support self-determination, you might also recognize that āgoing homeā might involve some staying to protect the separatist republics.
I might as well address the ban here too:
spoiler
I frankly found your iran/north korea comment in the log very hard to parse in the first place, but I did want to raise this exchange:
I get that this was sort of a low energy back and forth jab, but the reason they clapped you was because you basically jumped to (in slightly more elegant words) saying āwhat are you RUSSIAN?ā at someone giving you a goad, and then it kind of spiraled after.
re: calling someone Russian for naysaying you-
Among Russians, weāre not all going to have the same opinions, thereās plenty of Russians (expats in particular) who would tow a line which conforms a lot more towards yours for example. Thereās no need to start calling out ethnic groups just because you feel like youāre in a propaganda space that you need to defend. Thatās my read on why they responded with a ban, I will grant itās a bit heavy handed considering itās an offsite comment.
From what Iāve gathered in my time is thereās a lot of Americans on the site rather than Russians. They have a lot of people on the site who are more interested in curating a comfortable space rather than having an active presence in this āpropaganda spaceā and would prefer continued defederation- they said as much in the last federation referendum, I donāt think thereās a coordinated propaganda effort at play.
I hope you enjoy my lengthy responses, I tried to summarize it from my reading and for what itās worth I tried to approach it as impartially as I could given the circumstances.
Yeah, Iām completely fine with a serious discussion about it, because you seem like youāre capable of a serious discussion. So, right from the jump, the first comment they made:
That immediately to me is super offensive. Probably more so than pig shit pictures, definitely more so than me being condescending to them. Why? Because it is deliberate lies in service of killing. I still dealt with it factually, and I indicated Iād be open to a factual exchange. You want me to be nice about it also? Why would I do that? That doesnāt seem like itās necessary.
I have no idea if that person actually thinks that Putin will honor a cease-fire, whether randomly unilaterally announced or not. It is clear to me that he will not. Actually, you seemed to acknowledge that they know he wonāt (saying that all of these cease-fires tend to fall apart and not be honored). There are plenty of cease-fires that get honored, definitely plenty that arenāt broken on a huge scale right away on purpose.
Bottom line: Iāve known people from Ukraine. Iāve talked with them about their country getting torn apart, people they know getting killed, with an endless stream of lies coming from the other side about the reasons why and the things they can do to stop it from happening. I just donāt have patience for it. My whole SA analogy is in absolutely no way frivolous. I think itās an absolutely spot-on way of expressing the horror of Russia claiming theyāre only blowing up apartment buildings and hospitals because someone might be trying to resist them or give a security guarantee, and they didnāt like that, so they have every right to keep killing until they feel like stopping. And, someone on Lemmy saying the answer to that all is to stop arming Ukraine so they canāt fight back anymore. I think itās disgusting, and I donāt think Iām required to be nice when explaining why.
I donāt think anyone on Hexbear has any right to request that someone not be āoverly antagonisticā when they speak to them. For obvious reasons. The whole framing reeks of privilege and dishonesty, of creating rules for other people without any pretense that youāre planning to follow them yourself.
I do think that some of the Hexbear people are just confused and going along with the herd in terms of their beliefs and behavior. The whole propaganda framing is pretty powerful. Calm conversation is āsealioningā and itās bad. Dissenting voices are conflated with bigotry, even if they have nothing to do with it, and so banning dissent is āprotecting the spaceā from bigotry and just standing up for the oppressed which no other instance will do. Of course. There are all these words that get redefined as other different words, and all sorts of facts that arenāt true that are repeated so aggressively and often that they start to get accepted, and so these things they believe and do start to make sense within the off-kilter light theyāre seen in.
Yes it is.
There are two narratives about shelling in Donbas:
I know that several times Iāve asked people who told me the first narrative to back it up, and they couldnāt. They would send me sources that said one thing claiming it said something else, send me random Youtube videos that didnāt actually prove anything, that kind of thing. I donāt actually know whether it is the second narrative thatās true, or whether itās sort of a ātruth is somewhere in the middleā type of thing. Itās hard to say, at least for me with as much as Iāve looked into it. But I definitely have seen several people who said it was the first thing and found out afterwards that they were talking purely out of their ass.
Uncritically saying that Moscowās narrative is definitely true is jingoistic. And actually, dealing with people who disagree by simply shouting them down in a pack is more or less a key component of jingoism to me. The fact that Moscow says the first narrative is what happened means absolutely nothing to me, since they generally lie about all kinds of things constantly. I touched on that in that big conversation (with no substantive response, go figure). Iāve never heard anyone outside of that bubble say thatās what happened. And, like I said, even if it did happen exactly the way Moscow claims it did, that wouldnāt excuse three years of mass killing in Ukraine. Theyāve killed more Russian-speakers now, probably a hundred times over, by sending them into the meat grinder or just semi-accidentally bombing their homes in the course of the war, than anyone ever claimed had been killed in Donbas.
If someone is ethnically Russian in eastern Ukraine, and theyāre unhappy with the Kyiv government, there are means to deal with that other than starting a civil war.
This is a great example of what I was talking about. Itās just lies. The underlying fact is true, the court did order Ukraine to pay some people because of what happened in the burning of the trade union building, but itās being summarized in a wildly misleading way. On purpose. To tell lies to justify slaughter.
I would actually really recommend that you read the actual judgement that theyāre summarizing here in this way. You tell me whether this page you linked me to is summarizing what the court actually found in an accurate way.
Like I say: Iām fine having a factual discussion about it, but I donāt see why I would be obligated in any way to be nice to someone who doesnāt want that and is also willing to be 10 times more offensive than I am when theyāre on the other side of the disagreement. To me thatās not offensive, itās just fairness.