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Man I don’t care what anyone says nothing’s going to redeem that fascist loving instance.
Of course he engages in name calling. He thinks I care much more about his community than I really do. I haven’t checked on VTC for weeks.
Enemy of my enemy can still be enemy.
Literally. Hamas has done basically nothing to help the people. The people of Gaza are the heroes Hamas and Israel are just a couple of monsters victimizing them.
No you are supposed to PICK A SIDE. Don’t you dare think for yourself /s
Hamas is the perfect partner for Israeli genocidaires. That’s why Israel funded them in the first place.
If Fatah was still in power, Israel would’ve had a much more difficult time in demonizing Gaza in their propaganda outlets.
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news. There’s a reason Hamas won that election in 2006.
They also wouldn’t need to, because the West wouldn’t give a shit about Gaza without Hamas activities to put Palestine in the news.
… Gaza was a big fucking deal back when Fatah was in power, and it was when Fatah was at the head of things that the peace process came closest to becoming reality, with significant Western interest and support.
… Gaza was a big fucking deal back when Fatah was in power
As a humanitarian disaster?
and it was when Fatah was at the head of things that the peace process came closest to becoming reality, with significant Western interest and support.
Before I respond, are you talking about the 2005-2007 period?
As a humanitarian disaster?
Yes. Since the fucking 90s.
Before I respond, are you talking about the 2005-2007 period?
No, the 1990s, when it was one of the issues in US foreign policy.
No, the 1990s, when it was one of the issues in US foreign policy.
Oh, you’re talking about that. In that case you should know that the period of the conflict where such a thing was possible ended when Rabin was assassinated and Netanyahu took his place. See: Literally his whole career, but most relevantly:
They asked me before the election if I’d honor [the Oslo Accords] […] I said I would, but … I’m going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I’m concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue.
And, well, there’s a reason they call him the king of Israeli politics and it’s definitely not because his policies are unpopular. Both Fatah’s Oslo-era strategy and the West’s strategy at the time were just never going to work with people like that.
Israel giving them money?
I’m pretty sure that was after 2006. Leading up to the 2006 elections Hamas highlighted the success of violent resistance in ejecting Israel from Gaza compared to the abject failure of peaceful resistance by Fatah. My point here is that despite their many flaws, they actually get things done, and their getting things done is a large part of why the Palestinian cause has gotten as far as it has.
I’m pretty sure that was after 2006.
Hamas has been receiving Israeli support since the late 80s when it was founded.
My point here is that despite their many flaws, they actually get things done,
What? Speeding up the genocide by being the Israeli right’s perfect foil in this grotesque kayfabe?
and their getting things done is a large part of why the Palestinian cause has gotten as far as it has.
… Gaza is on the verge of total genocide, and the West Bank is looking to be next. Is that progress for the Palestinian cause?
Hamas has been receiving Israeli support since the late 80s when it was founded.
I just checked and yeah that’s true fair enough.
What? Speeding up the genocide by being the Israeli right’s perfect foil in this grotesque kayfabe?
Any effective (or not so effective) act of resistance was going to be met with massive Israeli reprisal, so the only way to not be a foil for the Israeli right is to literally do nothing. See: Fatah.
Is that progress for the Palestinian cause?
If somehow Gaza survives this it’ll be very much a hotly debated “at what cost” kind of deal, because October 7th did start the countdown for the end of Israel’s current existence, but at present no, because of course there need to be Palestinians before there’s a Palestinian cause. That said that’s not my point; I was responding to the idea that Hamas has been just a parasite passively profiting off Palestinians’ suffering when in real life they’ve been an active contributer to the Palestinian cause while also profiting off Palestinians’ suffering. Whether you like their contribution or not (prior to October 7th anyway) is one thing, but they are and were an active resistance organization without which prospects for peace in Palestine would be completely different. I mean there probably wouldn’t be a genocide either, but again that’s beside the point.
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Literally. Hamas has done basically nothing to help the people.
Not directly, but it’s no coincidence that the Palestine solidarity movement only expands after Israel uses Hamas as an excuse to slaughter Gazans. Since at least 2006 Hamas has been a very important catalyst for the advancement of the Palestinian cause (which isn’t mutually exclusive with them being massive pricks, that’s also true).
That’s like a Make-a-Wish kid thanking cancer for making them famous Etc. I think most Make-a-Wish kids would just wish that they didn’t have cancer. Hamas has literally done nothing for the Palestinians since they managed to gain power. Just make things worse while working in cahoots with Israel.
I think most Make-a-Wish kids would just wish that they didn’t have cancer.
True, but the cancer in this analogy is Israel, which exists in both scenarios.
Hamas has literally done nothing for the Palestinians since they managed to gain power. Just make things worse while working in cahoots with Israel.
In what way did you expect things to get better for Palestinians? I mean I’m not defending Hamas’s tyranny in Gaza, but there’s a very clear limit to how possible it is to improve things even with the best of intentions (which Hamas doesn’t have, to be clear). After the Second Intifada Israel blockaded Gaza, the Quarter (aka almost literally everyone) imposed sanctions on Palestine, Fatah launched a coup with US backing and Israel and Egypt used that as an excuse to impose the much harsher blockade that was in place until 2023. The only way for anything to get better under these conditions is to change the situation that created them, aka the Israeli occupation, and this is one thing Hamas has been successful at. To borrow your Make-a-Wish analogy, the hope is that becoming famous might lead to the kids getting treatment rather than whips.
I never implied wasn’t a cancer. But this situation is like cheering for a brain tumor to kill a patient first before the colon cancer does. When the Palestinian people who are the patient in this analogy are just being ravaged from both ends.
As long as the genocidal Zionist who founded Israel are still in charge of Israel, and as long as they largely have Western support. There is zero militarily, Hama’s can do to make the lives of Palestinians better. Does that mean they shouldn’t fight back? No. But let me ask you this. Can you point to any public works, aid or assistance to the Palestinian people by Hamas? Has hamas as a government behaved as a government. Or have they only ever largely waged war? Genuine question.
I get it, the PLO accomplished very little for the Palestinians as well. That’s how Hamas gained power. Hamas existing, doesn’t justify Hamas existing. What have they done for the palestinians? And why shouldn’t they be cast aside as other groups were. The main reason they haven’t been. Is because they would kill the very Palestinians that would do it. The very Palestinians they claim to be fighting for.
As long as the genocidal Zionist who founded Israel are still in charge of Israel, and as long as they largely have Western support. There is zero militarily, Hama’s can do to make the lives of Palestinians better.
In the short term no, but in the long term? There very much is. The staggering growth of the Palestinian solidarity movement over the last 20 years has been and remains to be a massive threat to Israel’s long-term continued existence via initiatives such as BDS, and the countdown on their demise really started with October 7th. It’s easy to lose sight of this given that Gazans are currently victims of genocide (which, well, yeah our focus should be on the genocide) but this is big. If Gaza somehow survives this genocide, Hamas will have both mass death and destruction and a massive, conflict-shaping accomplishment under their belt. Not saying the genocide is a good thing; of course it’s horrible, but when history books are trying to explain how Palestinians got their freedom (or died trying), half the text is going to be “Hamas did this so Israel did that and their popularity with their most ardent supporters plunged again.”
Can you point to any public works, aid or assistance to the Palestinian people by Hamas? Has hamas as a government behaved as a government. Or have they only ever largely waged war? Genuine question.
I’m not sure it’s possible or preferable for Hamas to build public works since they would almost immediately be bombed to oblivion, but they do a lot of the other stuff. They’re definitely pretty corrupt, though.
That’s how Hamas gained power. Hamas existing, doesn’t justify Hamas existing. What have they done for the palestinians? And why shouldn’t they be cast aside as other groups were.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not defending Hamas’s role as the leading Palestinian resistance organization; I would shed exactly zero tears if they were overthrown tomorrow. Nothing they’re doing justifies the way they run Gaza, but that’s one thing and the idea that they’ve done nothing to make Palestinians’ lives better is another.
Preemptive reply in progress
Done replying.
Do you think the average westerner is aware of what is happening in the West Bank?
Do you think the average westerner would be aware of what is happening in Gaza if Hamas wasn’t retaliating against Isreal?
I don’t condone what Hamas is doing, but I’m not going to be so naive to believe the western world would give a shit about Palestine if not for Hamas putting a spotlight on Gaza. We probably wouldn’t even be having this discussion without Hamas, we (in the collective sense) would be letting Isreal annex Palestinian lands with minimal criticism.
Most don’t know even with what Hamas is doing. Which is mostly hurting the people they’re supposed to represent. Most Palestinians dislike Hamas as much as anyone else. They just can’t do anything about it.
You said Hamas has done nothing to help the people. Is getting more privileges in the eyes of the UN not help? Palestine got more rights due to the Gaza war, which Hamas started. Like I said, I don’t condone their actions, but their actions do end up putting Israeli atrocities in the forefront which ultimately leads to more people turning against Israel. I wouldn’t be surprised if some Palestinians are against Hamas. They’re a necessary evil that should be purged as soon as Israel stops trying to eradicate Palestine, but as long as Israel is oppressing Palestine Hamas is necessary if for no other purpose than to draw global attention on Palestine.
If you want Gaza to be like the West Bank then they might as well just roll over and die.
Is it? Honest question. In general I support the idea of the UN and the spirit of it. What good is it?
They can’t? Why?
Oh could it be because they’re the only armed force that stands between them and mass deportation?
The genocide and deportation is happening, and will happen. Hamas is having no effect. They are only getting more innocent Palestinians killed.
Since coming into power how many elections has Hamas held? Zero? Fuck hamas. What, elections can’t be held during an ongoing conflict? Well isn’t that just convenient. Let’s just keep the conflict going forever and they can stay in power forever. Fuck Hamas.
Who’s been getting suitcases of cash from Israel and not used it to actually help the Palestinian people? Fuck Israel, fuck Hama’s.
Why is it when a named high level Hamas member is killed it’s basically never in Gaza or any of the places they’re supposed to be fighting for. Always hundreds to thousands of miles away in some Conflict Free Zone pissing the time away while accomplishing little to nothing. Don’t get me wrong I absolutely understand the Strategic value in having a safe point from which to plan. But at some point they need to be in the trenches themselves. And not sending children to be slaughtered.
Honestly the lot of US politicians that have actively funded Israel’s conflicts along with the whole of Israeli government should be tried and imprisoned. But just because they are evil. That doesn’t make Hamas good.
Shouldn’t call them “heroes”…
vegantheoryclub? lol, who goes to that instance?
Anyone who has an opinion that differs from the VTC admin.
ngl probably russians, spewing hate online to further conflictand
unlikely considering how small lemmy is. Waste of resources.
I wouldn’t completely rule it out. I suspect it’s much easier to “taint” and disrupt smaller communities. A lot less resources could be strategically used against lemmy - or any other small platform - at their early growth stage.
Not everyone is a russian troll, bad people exist everywhere.
And especially considering it’s VTC, if I have to ascribe a group to them without proof, it’s the Zizians.
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It’s always that guy
I pay extra attention to him because his instance is the only active vegan one.
Are the Haredi the ones who believe that Israel cannot exist before the Messiah comes?
Yes, nothing this person is saying is crazy if you understand the context of their sect’s belief.
Just because you understand it doesn’t mean it’s not crazy…
Could’ve left that part out…
Fucking scum.
To be fair genocide is vegan
Most famous vegetarian, Adolf Hitler commited genocide. Therefore genocide is vegan {QED} checkmate libtards op did nothing wrong
Tbf, it actually could be considered vegan (by some batshit zizian standard) because “humans aren’t animals like that so they don’t count and also they harm animals by virtue of being alive (pay no attention to predation in the animal kingdom please!)” And I wouldn’t be shocked to hear it.
To clarify, I’m saying this is crazy bullshit, but also that I wouldn’t be surprised if a small contingency of the craziest vegans actually believed this crazy bullshit.
Is consensual canibalism vegan?
Good question!
Yeah like if humans are counted as animals in the vegan definition then literally every product ever made isn’t vegan.
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