What’s up with this straight up pro-china and pro-russia stuff on Lemmy lately?
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly.
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Is this some kind of organized disinformation campaign?
“Was I brainwashed by Western propaganda?”
“No, only shithole commie countries like China have propaganda”
Do you folks not know that two things can be bad at the same time
Do you people get given a pre-opproved list of thought terminating cliches phrases? Because you always say that exact phrase, word for word, even when it doesn’t remotely apply to the conversation at hand, as is the case here.
Ok, just in case there’s a chance for you to be good faith. The above comment was a reply to a post about there being a lot of pro china and pro Russia propaganda being on Lemmy. It implied that the only way you can be against china and/or Russia is if you’ve fallen for western propaganda. This is a very clear fallacy, as being critical of china and/or Russia does not imply that you aren’t also critical of the west. There’s no conspiracy going on where everyone agreed to comment the same stuff, but if the same fallacy gets repeated over and over, multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
It implied
Ok, so you’re just putting words in their mouth.
This is a very clear fallacy,
Which they didn’t make, by your own admition. You just strawmanned them.
multiple people will independently see it for what it is and call it out.
Using the exact same stilted phrasing, word for word, every time?
You’re not buying any of this yourself, are you?
Wow, you sure stopped pretending you care about logical fallacies real quickly
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Funnily enough they almost always live in western democracies where they don’t need to fear reprisals for criticizing their government, something they wouldn’t dare do in China
bold assertion to make while pretty much every western ‘democracy’ is cracking down on people protesting for palestine
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Others have given great answers, but the short-answer is that it’s not a “disinformation campaign,” nor is it organized. It’s because Lemmy has a lot of leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists, and MLs both support AES (“Actually Existing Socialism”), like the PRC, and critically support capitalist countries forced into allying with them against the Global North’s imperialism.
In terms of their net impacts on the world, the US and EU far outweigh the evils of Russia. Russia is certainly flawed, but unlike the US and EU Russia doesn’t rely on expropriating vast amounts of wealth from the Global South, sanctioning, couping, or genociding those who go against imperialism. It isn’t because Russia is some moral paragon, but because they simply lack the means to be imperialist, they are boxxed in by the west and lack the financial capital to rely on expropriation of wealth.
As for the PRC, it gets far more support, because it’s the leading socialist country. 800 million people were lifted from poverty, and it’s rapidly improving. Even when the west runs propaganda against them, like the COVID lab leak theory or the Chinese spy balloon hysteria, the PRC is being widely supported by the Global South as the PRC is providing a genuine alternative to the genocidal west.
If you (or anyone else) want an introduction to Marxism-Leninism, here’s my Read Theory, Darn It! introductory reading guide!
Russia is literally conducting an imperialist invasion of Ukraine right now…
I can’t stand this shit when fake leftists defend authoritarian, imperialist states because they oppose the west.
Just because Russia “opposes” the west doesn’t make it any better than them.
The Russo-Ukrainian War is about forcing Ukraine to be neutral to NATO, and resolving the conflict between Kiev and the Donetsk and Luhanks People’s Republics that requested Russian support after the Minsk agreements fell through due to Ukraine failing to keep up their end of the bargain. It isn’t an imperialist war, the goal is not expropriation of wealth, it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded from the ground, such as in World War II by Nazi Germany.
Russia is not worthy of critical support just because “west bad.” Russia can’t imperialize countries like the west has. It tried, back when Putin requested to join NATO 2 decades ago, but Russia was denied because the Nationalists in Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s. As a consequence, Russia is forced to ally with the anti-imperialist countries, largely made up of countries in the Global South and socialist countries. The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder, because Russia physically cannot imperialize in the same way the west does. It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
If you’re going to call leftists “fake,” then you should at least do the due dilligence to familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
The Minsk agreement has nothing to do with the formation of the Donetsk “republic”.
Though Russia respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine was a big part of it nobody seems to remember.
Yanukovych refused to sign a free trade agreement with the EU that the Ukrainian Parliament had ratified, leading to the largest democratic protests in Europe in decades. When he was ousted from power, Russia realized they were losing their puppet, invaded Crimea and fully backed fringe separatist movements providing money, arms and Russian regulars on “vacation” to generate a pretext for the 2014 full scale invasion.
it’s to keep NATO out of the main path by which Russia has historically been invaded
NATO is a voluntary defensive alliance. The only reason it has expanded is because Russia continually tries to invade the former Soviet republics.
If eastern Europe wasn’t terrified of Russia, they wouldn’t be applying to join.
Putin requested to join NATO 2
Sure Putin at some point allegedly expressed interest in joining NATO. Who the fuck knows what happened but he also allegedly refused to apply for membership.
Russia didn’t want to open their markets up to foreign plunder like in the 90s
Do you have any idea what the market is like in Russia? Have you ever even visited? It’s a state run by robber barons with palaces and yachts all over the world. The west couldn’t plunder what Putin and his cronies have already robbed.
Look at what China managed to build since the 90s and look at the failed state of Russia after decades of Putin’s rule.
The Sahel States, for example, are turning to Russia and the PRC as an alternative to western plunder
You mean the gold mines Wagner was running in Africa to plunder for the Russian war chest?
It fundamentally lacks the ability to export vast amounts of capital and outsource production.
You acknowledge Russia wants to, but you admit the only reason they don’t, is that they can’t? So we’re in some sort of agreement here.
familiarize yourself with the Marxist analysis of imperialism.
Attempting to expand your countries power through military action is the textbook definition of imperialism.
Marx (correctly) views imperialism as an inevitability of a capitalist system due to its drive to expand and accumulate capital, but he didn’t define the word.
What’s most disappointing is how little respect is given to democratic movements by authoritarians posing as socialists. People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
The western trade agreement required privatization of safety nets and general austerity politics, the Russian loans did not. The Russian loans had more respect for the sovereignty of Ukraine than the western loans, hence the decisuon of Yanukovych. The nationalists in the west couped the government with the assistance of the west, installing the Banderite nationalist regime, while the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk seceded after seeing their president get couped.
NATO is an alliance of imperialist states that has been led by Nazis like Adolf Heusinger. Its sole purpose is to perpetuate imperialism, and encircle countries that oppose having their markets plundered by the west. Russia is not trying to “continually invade” countries.
Putin wanted to join NATO because Putin wanted Russia to be able to imperialize the global south like the west does. Pretty clear-cut.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country owned by capitalists. The PRC is socialist, which is why it has achieved far more in the same span, and did not collapse into capitalism like Russia did.
The Sahel States are a coalition of anti-imperialist countries that are nationalizing their industry and focusing more on trading finished goods than raw materials. This was impossible when the west was imperializing them, Russia is not imperializing the Sahel States because they can’t.
Yes, Russia is a deeply flawed nationalist country that, by circumstance, is forced to align with progressive, anti-imperialist movements and socialist countries. Nobody is saying “Russia is a perfect country that is ideologically pure,” that’s the point of critical support.
Russia is not trying to expand their power through conquest, their goal is to demillitarize Ukraine and ensure its neutrality with NATO, as Ukraine is the best front to stage a war on Russia.
Marx analyzed imperialism in its very early stages, it was Lenin that expanded that theory into the Marxist canon and thoroughly established and analyzed it. There are practically no Marxists that reject Lenin’s analysis of imperialism.
I do listen to Ukrainians, support for the war is falling sharply, and the ethnic Russians in LPR and DPR have wanted independence from Ukraine for over a decade. The best thing for the Ukrainian working class is a quick surrender of the 4 oblasts, NATO neutrality, and a prompt socialist revolution to oust the Banderite regime.
I do listen to Ukrainians
Except when they democratically decide on closer ties with the EU?
I want to focus on your belief that NATO started this war and that Russia is somehow defending itself because it’s inherently contradictory. It requires you to believe the following:
- The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement, but Yanukovych was.
- The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones, but the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
Can you speak more to those ideas?
NATO has been pressing eastward despite making agreements with Russia that it would not. From the beginning, NATO was formed as an anti-communist alliance, and even after the Soviet Union fell it has been a key tool in encircling Russia to get them to open up their markets to foreign plunder, a tried and true strategy used elsewhere.
Yanukovych was correct in not pursuing the western requirement of austerity politics and becoming a puppet of western countries. NATO used this as an opportunity to overthrow Yanukovych and install a far-right Banderite regime. When the Donbass region wanted to secede, Kiev responded with ethnic repression in the form of language suppression and outright shelling, shelling which accelerated in the weeks leading up to Russian invasion.
With a far-right regime that is violently Russophobic and is cozying up to the number 1 anti-Russian millitary alliance in the world right on their borders, Russia decided to invade when diplomacy fell through. Russia does not give a shit about extraction from Ukraine. They are not in this for the plunder. Russia purely wants Ukraine to promise NATO neutrality, and stop the ethnic cleansing in Donetsk and Luhansk.
This is the bog-standard communist take. Orgs like The Party for Socialism and Liberation have released statements, same as FRSO’s statement. You are unfamiliar with communism yet are trying to use it against itself.
Did you respond to the correct post? This isn’t relevant to what I asked.
The Ukrainian Parliament under Yanukovych was not democratic so couldn’t ratify the trade agreement
It was a fast moving process. Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known. Russia did make a much better offer than EU, and Yanukovych was right to prefer it.
The Maidan protests were staged by nearly 800,000 NATO drones
While there is an obvious pull among the young to get western values, CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes. The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing. Not informed pragmatic study of all alternatives.
the much smaller Donetsk separatist movement was legitimate and wasn’t a Russian imperialist front.
The nazi rulership, installed by US, immediately massacred opposition in Odessa, removed Russian language rights, and wanted to seize Crimean port out of Russian lease. Ukrainian naziism has become the new western liberal values, but most people don’t like nazis, and especially not their “subhuman labelled” targets for extermination.
Your previous post was dishonest as well.
Unclear when IMF interference demands for austerity were known.
I think you’re conflating two separate issues. The IMF was not involved in trade talks between the EU and Ukraine. It was when Ukraine was seeking loans but Yanukovych didn’t reject to ratify the EU bill because of the IMF.
CIA/US state propaganda operations to fabricate that opinion, was done purely for nazification and warmongering purposes
To what end goal?
Is it so hard to believe that given the choice between closer ties to the EU or a gay hating, poverty stricken state run by robber barons and oligarchs, Ukrainians might have preferred the EU?
The idiocy of the public makes them resort to their programing.
This isn’t a fair argument, I could say the same thing about you, and you could say the same about me. How can we find truth when we both believe the other is simply regurgitating programming from some shadowy propaganda source.
I’ll ask this: Do you feel yourself entrenched in these views or are you actually open to changing them through discussion?
immediately massacred opposition in Odessa,
This didn’t happen though.
removed Russian language rights
This also didn’t happen.
People completely ignore the voices of Ukrainians fighting to defend their homeland.
Which Ukrainians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Banderite fascists?
- The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
- The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.Which Russians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Wagner fascists?
- The Russian democrats and anti-fascists who, after opposing Putin’ss unelected government, were subsequently terrorized by the FSB for nearly a decade before being imprisoned or killed?
- The Eastern Russians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
See how easy it is to write this bullshit? And mine is actually true.
You’ve rejected western propaganda, which is fair, but then rather than engaging with reality critically, you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
What’s your point, that Ukrainians are an undifferentiated mass of Euro stans like our government and media portray them? Because that’s bullshit. We’re not talking about Russians, we’re talking about Ukrainians, including those with linguistic, cultural, familial, and business ties to Russia.
you’ve just bought into Russian propaganda without a second thought.
Do you think I’m watching RT and reading Pravda? Almost everything I’ve read or heard has come from Western sources. Almost all the links in my previous comment are Western sources.
Lol, OP is mad they got their post removed for claiming that Covid was a Chinese bioweapon.
lmfao hooman rights is when you do genocide and jail people protesting it
Some good answers already here, but I can only answer for myself: I used to be that kind of leftist that was “Well I want socialism, but not like those scary foreign authoritarian countries. They’re doing it wrong! Or that’s not really socialism!” At some point after learning more history and talking with others online, I’ve softened my view on these places. Some of that is learning that some of what I knew about them was straight up misinformation, but some of it comes from a shift in perspective: These aren’t abstract ideals of countries. They’re real countries. With real people, real histories, real material conditions, real geopolitical relationships to deal with, etc. They’re doing something really difficult and it’s really easy to be an armchair quarterback while sitting cozy in the US where I don’t have to deal with any of their tough decisions or the consequences of them. Am I happy with them doing some authoritarian policies? No. But maybe they’re necessary to deal with the interference of the US? I don’t know for sure if that’s the best approach, but I don’t have to imagine the counterexample of what it looks like if you don’t take defensive measures, the US has helpfully provided a bunch in the form of all of the countries they’ve backed coups in for the crime of electing even a slightly leftist government. We could squabble about better ways to deal with this, but neither of us has the full context to have an educated discussion on the matter. Also for the genuinely bad stuff, I wouldn’t go as far as specifically supporting those things, but it’s worth putting them in perspective. You can’t talk about China online without someone bringing up Tienanmen Square, meanwhile the US has been a never-ending avalanche of evil in it’s short history, but you can talk about any number of things not related to politics in the US without a random leftist wandering into the discussion about the latest hollywood movie shouting the entire lyrics to “We Didn’t Start the Fire.” I mean we’re happy to bring all that stuff up if it’s in the right context, but people are so deranged about communist countries that the ONLY thing they can think to bring up in relation to them is their less savory moments that may or may not even be true/exaggerated.
It’s really hard to sort good information from bad about these places because there’s so much propaganda. I get that those other countries have an incentive to put out their own propaganda, but it’s hard for me to know what their reach is or what their motivations are or how much they are lying vs countering US misinfo. Meanwhile I KNOW the US has a fairly sophisticated system of propaganda spanning government agencies, media companies, NGOs, etc. I KNOW the US is motivated to prop up the interests of capitalists and try to stop other countries from pushing back against them. A lot of the bad shit and lies the US has done is just straight up declassified history. So I’m sorry if I’m a little skeptical about what the empire that’s made it it’s business to deny self-determination to countries around the world has to say about those countries.
As for Russia, I’m not specifically a supporter. Ever since the USSR collapsed they’ve been another capitalist, imperialist country. But in terms of scale they’re just not even remotely comparable to the US. They are at worst a regional power and outside of nukes can’t really threaten the US on the global stage. So when the US war machine starts saber rattling about them, I know what it’s for because I’ve seen it a million times before. We always need an external enemy to justify the massive amount of money we spend on the military and all of the capitalists who profit from it. Even if I think it would be good if someone in the region pushed back against Russian aggression, I think feeding the beast that is the US military industrial complex is a net negative for the world. Not that I really have any say in it. I can’t remember the last time my congressperson or senator asked if I wanted to give another couple billion dollars to their friends in the “defense” industry. And then of course there was all the hysteria about Russian interference in our elections from the Democrats. I don’t even care if they’re right or wrong. That’s besides the point. The function of the claims is what is more valuable to look at: The implication of “Russia is subverting our democracy by interfering in our elections.” is “We had a previously uncorrupted democracy before the Russians got involved. Please ignore how our own billionaires have bought out all of our elections.” It’s a way to shore up support for a failing system by externalizing it’s problems.
I just want to live in a world where we can all live dignified lives. US capitalists are the current greatest obstacle to that dream. I’d rather have imperfect allies against that than throw my lot in with the “Endless war, exploitation, and ecological collapse” team.
Well said.
The US always needs a boogeyman to justify massive defense spending
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Evil china and evil russia have never done anything to my country while the US and Europe did and continue to do so, is that clear enough?
Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Excuse me? The US treats my people like animals and you want to bring human rights into the picture?
ok but have you considered chinese imperialism!!! they’re invading the world with cheaper, better and faster smartphones and ethically made synthetic diamonds that are materially indistinguishable from the diamonds mined by slaves owned by the west and various renewable energy tech that will absolutely be used to steal solar energy from countries investing in it and definitely not help countries divert away from broken-down non-renewable energy infrastructure depedent on Western private companies to “maintain”!!
don’t you get me started on russian imperialism… You don’t wanna get me started!
China has human rights. E.G. Trans people get gender affirming healthcare, jobs, food, and housing. Something that the U.S. does not guarantee and is actively trying to ban transgender affirming care. One of the most famous people in China is Jin Xing a trans woman. The Chinese government does not restrict transgender people in the same way that the UK and the U.S. does. Largely it is social stigma that remains in China, which will and has been changing over time.
Tbh in China it varies a LOT by region how you’ll be treated socially. There’s some places where trans people have dedicated medical centers and others where they’ll be persecuted. It’s a failure of uneven development they’re trying to fix. The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
The govt there recently banned the sale of hormones online which really complicated things for trans women.
That’s if you don’t have a prescription, while the process is some what tedious to get a prescription people were giving themselves doses far above what is recommended so it was out of concern for safety not a malicious intent unlike what we see in Western countries. I would like to see China do informed consent for HRT and lift some of the barriers though.
As far as the rural v urban divide, it is a tale as old as time, not something unique to China, but at least they are doing something about it.
You can get hormones by eating gonads (eg ovaries, uterus, testes), that’s part of how those meds are made. So it won’t stop people from getting them, it just means their doses will be unpredictable.
What’s your point?
I agree that treatment seems a non issue, but from what I’ve seen the social stigma is incredibly significant. I forget their handle, but there was a trans man on rednote that had alot to say about the stigma in his part of china. That isn’t to say the US is any better though.
That’s Theo and his rednote videos are very insightful. There probably could be better education surrounding trans people done in China to help reduce the stigma, but that is the case in nearly every country. I think as people continue to be open and vulnerable about what it means to be transgender and people become more exposed to transgender people that social stigma will change. It is part of why I live openly and honestly as a trans person. Every generation of queer folk has paved the way for the rest of us.
Ah thank you for the name drop! And yeah, I hope things improve!
And the situation with the uigurs?
China’s claim is that anything that is being done is being done to combat islamic fundamentalist groups/extremists. This seems to be backed up by international support from Muslim countries.
Genocide claims were always unfounded. However, no matter how nice the guided tours of reeducation facilities look, they are still in effect prisons, and we of course don’t know about the things that we aren’t being shown.
If your position on the topic is anything more than “They may or may not be treated that good”, you have information that nobody else has.
There are prisons, of course. Every country has them. And some terrorists did get prosecuted and imprisoned. They weren’t hypothetical terrorists. Locals were getting stabbed, shot, run over, and bombed by them. So of course any non-radicalized Uyghur—which were the vast majority—wanted the terrorism to stop as much as anyone else, just as there were scarcely any US Muslims cheering as the Twin Towers fell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events
But the job training facilities weren’t/aren’t prisons. Those who didn’t live near the schools traveled in for the week, received room & board, and went back home on weekends.
I appreciate your correction Davel. I’ve seen some of your posts/comments in the past and they have always been informative on this topic.
I understand western notions of prisons paint ugly pictures of grey walls and metal bars so if they are given that much autonomy during the process, maybe that term was misleading and I apologize.
I do take issue with the hypothetical terrorist rebuttal though, because the same thing can be applied to the US policies. Yes, we did have terrorist attacks done against us. That doesn’t mean that every person we locked up as a terrorist was one.
You might have the trust that China is telling the truth and isn’t doing something similar, that’s a valid enough position to have. Im still not personally convinced.
Yes, we did have terrorist attacks done against us. That doesn’t mean that every person we locked up as a terrorist was one.
I’m sure some mistakes were made because no system will ever be perfect, but socialist states are fundamentally different from a capitalist, imperialist, globally hegemonic state. Without evidence, there’s no reason to assume that China’s handling of it was analogous to ours.
I have disagreements that China is currently socialist, but that is outside the scope of the original discussion.
Most Western Marxists do disagree, as I also used to.
Cultural genocide is still genocide. You can get into if it’s to combat extremism as a separate statement.
Cultural genocide is still genocide.
Yes, by some laws/conventions/definitions of genocide it is, but China isn’t even doing that. Previously. Previously.
What about it? Say what you mean.
The genocide of them that ML refuses to acknowledge.
We absolutely do refuse to acknowledge a thing that never happened, that the US/CIA/NED made up after their “color revolution” attempt failed.
Alright, I expect some evidence of that claim. Please no CIA sources, I’d like to save us some time.
“please give me evidence” “only sources I like”. I’m not wasting my time sourcing things that you will deny.
You can’t bring us evidence because there isn’t any.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once its efforts failed, it made lemonade out of its lemon by concocting and promoting a genocide narrative.
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same ones supporting Israel’s genocide.
Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
“uigurs”
Yea I couldn’t spell it and autocorrect wasn’t about to help me.
Ml was always pro china pro russia nothing new. I am more worried about the rise of zionism apologists
Which Zionism apologists are you seeing on .ml? Moderators remove that. I also don’t really believe you’ve seen popular pro-Russia stances, I’d sooner think you’re conflating Russia-neutral stances.
It’s not even praising the people of China and Russia, but rather their gov directly. Obviously the states have problems, and the EU to a lesser degree, but they at least have some human rights.
Not sure I agree with your claim that the West have better human rights. They do more anti-privacy stuff than the rest of the world combined, and are starving 2 million people. The USA deprives the most people of their freedom: 1.9 million I’m seeing, and 99% of them never had a trial.
Liberals hear criticism of western countries and respond, “They’re not perfect. They have their little foibles.” Liberals hear criticism of other countries and think they’re pure evil.
I saw China take COVID seriously while I was marched off to work to die because my job was “essential” - the US, EU, Canada, it was basically every Western country except New Zealand (which is an island and basically became a bunker nation for billionaires and shouldn’t really count)
I became pro-China after that.
The best is once covid was declared over usa got tons of laws forcing the removal of what little protections were done.
were the party if fiscal responsibility but all that money you spent needs to get burned because screw any germ protections being kept on our watch
Well germ theory is woke! Didn’t you know?
What I learned from covid is a lot of US states had laws criminalizing wearing any kind of mask in public because it’s considered “suspicious” or “threatening” or something, and most states are now reinstating those laws post covid.
Like what the actual fuck?
Also, when Chinese covid lockdowns were perceived as too restrictive and went on for too long, Chinese citizens in many different cities started protesting. Did the evil commie government (A) reenact the Tiananmen Square massacre to silence all opposition or (B) listen to the people and actually drop most of the restrictions? Bet most westoids will pick the wrong answer.
Also, loosening of the lockdowns quickly led to more victims than the initial phase of pandemic. Malcontents were lucky that govt did not caved in sooner.
It’s legitimately insane how people look at the US’s dogshit excuse for a pandemic response and think other countries were too restrictive, when in reality even those that were actually trying like China was still weren’t restrictive enough.
My state of Victoria in Australia had one of the longest lockdowns in the world. As someone with an immuno compromised dad I was supportive of it. However the state is now in a lot of debt and having to cut public servants and services.
States without currency sovereignity or trade sovereignity probably can’t respond to pandemics without indebting themselves. If they can’t print money and can’t marshal the forces of production they’re basically reliant on market forces, and capital is happy to punish them for daring to get in the way of profits.
Related, COVID also proved to me that the EU is not a progressive historical force. It similarly turns sovereign nations into dependent states without currency sovereignity or trade sovereignity.
I promise you, they do not actually have to cut public services.
They have to recoup the ~$50 billion spent/invested on covid public health and financial support somehow. Yet they keep digging deeper into the $200 billion suburban rail link.
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I think the fact that the US had a 9/11 every day for so long is actually a lot more horrifying than people being forced into screening to leave apartment complexes (which is what you’re referring to when you sensationally accuse them of “nailing doors shut”).
Being marched to my death was horrifying.
Stopping a pandemic means sacrificing some freedom of movement. The fact that China was willing to sacrifice productivity to save lives convinced me that politics are in command and, despite their market reforms, they remain committed to Marxism.
terrorized its own population
The authorities would literally nail your door shut from the outside if one person in your city block was tested positively and many people almost starved in their flats during these absolute lockdowns.
These are some yeonmi park level claims.
Short answer: Many people support those governments critically or uncritically for various reasons.
Long answer:
Russia: Some people who oppose US hegemony support Russia as probably the most effective anti-US actor globally - I mean look at what they’ve managed (in part) to do to the US government over the last 10 years or so. They may also be sympathetic to Russian anti-NATO sentiment. People who support China may also critically support Russia since they are a strategic ally of China. Some people just full-throatedly support Russia uncritically - I don’t know why they’re quite so enthusiastic, but most others who have pro-Russian sentiment are still critical of Russia, but support them as a major power capable of attacking US hegemony.
China: China is the most successful communist country to have ever existed. Many left-leaning people may support China to varying degrees because they are an Actually Existing Socialist country and because their model of Communism with Chinese Characteristics seems to work quite well for them. Due to the West (broadly) attacking Socialist governments in the name of Liberalism & becoming increasingly more fascistic, China could be an important bulwark against fascism. Many people support China uncritically - they genuinely like the Chinese system of government and want their governments to be more like China’s. Other people critically support China - they believe China’s government is problematic in some way(s), but support it anyway as a bastion of socialism and a significant challenger to US economic & political hegemony.
As for support for the governments as opposed to the people: We kind of have to talk about these things at the country level, since governments are the (imperfect) embodiments of political ideologies and collectively act on behalf of the people within their borders, and “the people” aren’t monolithic. We often treat countries as avatars of political ideologies which is inaccurate but is an abstraction that unfortunately often leads to an oversimplification of the ideologies behind & effects of those governments’ actions while allowing us to create a comprehensible narrative.
Your instance is probably one of the few who still federated with lemmygrad and hexbear as you described both these instances to a T. You can either block these instances or create an account with one of the numerous instances that have defederated from these absurd groups.
And lemmy.ml - as evidenced by the comments here.
You’re welcome to leave if you just want yet another pro-West nationalist circle jerk
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Mate, you are in a .ml com
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This person supports Israel’s genocide of Gaza, btw.
Got to keep that echo chamber sealed
Funny you say that considering hexbear had themselves sealed off from everyone else for several years.
I have no issue with people holding opposing viewpoints or perspectives, but I do have an issue with people acting as little more than mouthpieces for some authoritarian politicians. I see little difference between them and the MAGA sycophants who talk about the “great” things Donald Trump is doing.
Hexbear didn’t “have themselves sealed off,” r/chapotraphouse was banned for supporting John Brown, and then the sub went off and made chapo.chat, later Hexbear.net, as its own thing. Years later, they worked to integrate with Lemmy, and then the anti-communist instances like Lemmy.world defederated before Hexbear even started federating with them.
The fact that you fail to see a difference between MAGA and communists is more of a self-own than anything. Communists have strong, resolute views based on reading theory and (ideally) organizing in the real world and advocate for liberation of all peoples.
Hexbear didn’t "have themselves sealed off,
the sub went off and made chapo.chat, later Hexbear.net, as its own thing. Years later, they worked to integrate with Lemmy
So they went off and “made their own thing for years” but that doesn’t describe an echo chamber?
Instances didnt defederate from them for being communist. Lemmy.ml is run by communists and we’re obviously interacting now, no? They defederated from these groups because they’re obnoxious and disengenuous. They act like MAGA sycophants cosplaying as communists.
Communists can’t really create echo chambers, at least not in the west, because liberalism is inescapable in day to day life. Liberals can create echo-chambers (and do), because day to day life in the west is very pro-liberalism. Hexbear didn’t “seal themselves off,” they created a space where they wouldn’t be censored by liberals and fascists.
As for Lemmy.ml, it’s run by communists, but is also the main dev instance, so there’s a lot of instances that don’t want to fully isolate from the devs. That’s why I use it, actually, so I both don’t get censored for being a communist but can also speak with liberals that otherwise can’t see Hexbear.net or Lemmygrad.ml.
As for why Hexbear was defederated, Lemmy.world makes it clear that it’s an ideological incompatability:
The announcement included several concerning statements, as highlighted below:
- “Please try to keep the dirtbag lib-dunking to hexbear itself. Do not follow the Chapo Rules of Posting, instead try to engage utilizing informed rhetoric with sources to dismantle western propaganda. Posting the western atrocity propaganda and pig poop balls is hilarious but will pretty quickly get you banned and if enough of us do it defederated.”
- “The West’s role in the world, through organizations such as NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank - among many others - are deeply harmful to the billions of people living both inside and outside of their imperial core.”
- “These organizations constitute the modern imperial order, with the United States at its heart - we are not fooled by the term “rules-based international order.” It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
The rhetoric and goal of Hexbar are clear based on their announcement: to “dismantle western propaganda” and "demolish organizations such as NATO” shows that Hexbar has no intention of "respecting the rules of the community instance in which they are posting/commenting.” It’s to push their beliefs and ideology.
So yes, it was because Lemmy.world is anti-communist. Same with sh.itjust.works. It isn’t because of holding strong beliefs in communism, but because of the incompatability of communism with instances like Lemmy.world.
Communists can’t really create echo chambers, at least not in the west, because liberalism is inescapable in day to day life.
🙄
We’re not talking about “the west” we’re talking about websites that transcend borders. This is disingenuous nonsense.
Liberals can create echo-chambers (and do), because day to day life in the west is very pro-liberalism.
Citation needed.
As for why Hexbear was defederated, Lemmy.world makes it clear that it’s an ideological incompatability:
Why have you written this information without providing a source for it? Is it because it was copied from directly inside said echo-chamber? Why focus solely on lemmy.world when they’re just one of many instances to defederate from them? More disingenuous nonsense.
Gee lets see you’re speaking about liberal propaganda, how terrible NATO, the IMF, and the World Bank are, how there’s an “imperial order” (the deep state) secretly running things behind the scenes and you still want to sit here claiming you don’t sound exactly like a MAGA Republican cosplaying as a communist.
It is in the Left’s interest for these organizations to be demolished. When and how this will occur, and what precisely comes after, is the cause of great debate and discussion on this site, but it is necessary for a better world.”
So dismantle and destroy modern society with no thought about what comes after? You’d think people who claim to be so deep into communism would have some sort of vision or idea for the world they want to create based on the principles of communism, yet here you admit there is no vision other than ‘destroying liberals’ and ‘destroying the west.’ See how quickly the facade of ‘communism’ falls apart under the slightest scrutiny?
All you’re left with is fascist messaging echoing the fascist propaganda coming from people like Trump, Putin, and Netanyahu. These ideas can’t stand on their own which is why hexbear users love to brigade posts, argue in bad faith, and derail every discussion with absurd memes and ad hominem attacks once anyone pokes the slightest hole in their logic because then they dont have to defend and indefensible position.
You’re simply using “communism” as a shield to both create a built-in ‘victim’ defense and to lure in naive new users to brainwash. This is no different than Christians claiming people are attacking them for having “Christian beliefs” while they try to remove rights to LGBT individuals. Hexbear literally uses this same exact tactic by pretending to be pro-LGBT while supporting the Trump and Putin regime who has or is moving toward making it a crime to be LGBT. Sorry, but adding an option to include your pronouns next to your username while championing a dictator who imprisons people for being LGBT and legally mandates ‘conversion therapy’ doesn’t make you guys “pro-LGBT.” You’re just targeting marginalized people to lure them into your cult to build numbers. Its no different than the QAnon people, the Manoshpere people, MAGA, or any other modern cult.
Websites transcend borders, sure, but the China hate is largely western.
I don’t think you need a citation to know that capitalism is the dominant economic structure in the west, and that therefore liberalism is dominant.
Here’s the source, I copied exactly from Lemmy.world’s admins. You could do 5 seconds of searching or waste all that time trying to call me out for some reason.
Marxist-Leninists are against imperialism, and by extension NATO and the IMF. You just added “deep state” and pretended that made it MAGA, lmao. Just say you don’t know any communists nor what communists advocate for.
As for dismantling imperialism, obviously that’s one step, the other step is socialist revolution and replacement with an economy run collectively. This is incredibly obvious to anyone even tangentially familiar with communist theory. There isn’t a “facade of communism,” the only “facade” is the idea that you should be taken seriously.
No, you don’t have fascism, you have fanfiction. You fundamentally have no clue what communists want, why, or how we want to get there. Hexbear isn’t supporting Trump, and we aren’t “pretending” to be LGBTQ+, I’m pansexual myself.
Fundamentally, you’re an anti-communist that lacks any and all knowledge of communism. Here’s a beginner Marxist-Leninist reading list, and here’s the Party Program for the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Read both. No investigation, no right to speak.
Speaking of echo chambers, that straw man rant came from the halls of your mind palace.
Funny you say that considering hexbear had themselves sealed off from everyone else for several years.
No, they didn’t.
I have no issue with people holding opposing viewpoints or perspectives, but I do have an issue with people acting as little more than mouthpieces for some authoritarian politicians. I see little difference between them and the MAGA sycophants who talk about the “great” things Donald Trump is doing.
So you do actually have issues with opposing viewpoints.
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I’d like a definition of “pro-Russia” and “pro-China.” Does crediting other countries for any progress, while your own country goose steps towards fascism, considered a “pro” stance? Russia and China are reacting to attacks from the West.
