I’m going to be a real asshole now and argue that the total cultural stagnation adds a bit to the bleakness of the setting and Johnny even points it out in several instances
Shadowrun, as a counter-example that you definitely can’t dismiss as easily as the other one I gave, is a franchise that decade after decade, for better or for worse, does change. It can be a bleak, even dark setting, but it doesn’t wallow in creativity-stifling excuses like “if nothing changes, that’s actually the message. Yeah, that’s the ticket.” It also helps that there’s a lot of urban-legend style street magic and lots of color and variety so it isn’t just 1980s aesthetics forever and ever.
I know what it’s doing. It’s awfully convenient too, to just extend what was in the 2020s to the 2070s and say “it’s the same because it’s bleaker that way, maaaan.”
Could have been bleaker in newer, updated ways, the way Watch Dogs 2 was, for example.
tbh I’ve not seen anything of Watch Dogs or its sequel that made me do anything but disregard it as shallow trash, but then again I never looked very closely. So maybe I’m just too dismissive. What’s so great about it?
I think I might just be enamored by the experience of deflecting bullets with a katana and using a mag rifle to shoot people through walls or something but I really do love the setting of CP2077. I’m willing to overlook that bit of laziness and let it rest on its laurels, because I really felt they nailed the atmosphere even if it was a janky piece of shit.
tbh I’ve not seen anything of Watch Dogs or its sequel that made me do anything but disregard it as shallow trash,
I feel the same way about the CDPR take on the Cyberpunk franchise. I gave up playing it and watched some fairly long critical reviews instead.
What’s so great about it?
I could ask the same question. I didn’t say Watch Dogs 2 was high art but it was trying something other than “what if Cyberpunk setting but 50 years later with more copaganda and a lot less punk?”
I think I might just be enamored by the experience of deflecting bullets with a katana and using a mag rifle to shoot people through walls or something
That’s fine and you can enjoy that all you like. I’m talking themes and messaging for the most part, not moment to moment gameplay. The game certainly is less of a chore to actually play than the Witcher series was.
What I like about CP2077 is that when you take the setting as a whole, not just as presented in the game (though visually and aurally they really do a fantastic fucking job, I really must stress that) it’s basically the most purely distilled essence of the genre you can get anywhere. I’m not sure how bleak Watch Dogs 2 is, but is it “Africa and a good chunk of South Asia pretty much entirely depopulated due to starvation since no corporations wanted to invest in hydroponics skyscrapers there” bleak? Is it “rats and homeless people are mentioned in the same breath and both disposed of with nerve gas” bleak? It’s so fucking ridiculously bleak that it becomes humorous, and then keeps going to become sad again, because it’s so fucking believable. It’s entirely believable that US intelligence agencies would just fucking coup the country and do drug wars in South America to line their pockets and strengthen their grip until it just collapses into an economically broken heap. It’s disturbingly plausible that corporations would gain so much power that they engage in open warfare with each other over security contracts. It’s a setting that’s ridiculous and over the top and cheesy but in a way that somehow resonates deeper than one which takes itself more seriously.
There’s a powerful manic energy to the setting that is barely masking a despair that runs to its deepest hollows. Articles you find discuss the horrors of companies being allowed to enforce cyberware installations like dress codes, and how it’s not a big leap for them to enclose and monetize and entirely control human reproduction, creativity, and thought. It’s a society that has entirely given up hope and is running out the clock in as flashy and fun a way as possible. The highest aspirations most mercs have is dying violently and gloriously, in a way that makes people remember you.
It is, in a word, Jokerfied
(Or maybe I’m just a pretentious drunken fuckwad lol)
Again, you do you. I have problematic favorites of my own, but when it comes to bleak future dystopias, I could easily find something a lot more diverse, creative, and complex that isn’t so rigidly confined in the tropes under whatever excuse and dares to reach out from there, including into the supernatural. By that I mean Shadowrun as the first and most shining example, rough patches and bad editions at times and all.
I actually enjoy grim fantasy medieval settings, as a parallel example, but if the bleakness is all that there is to emphasize, I’m going to lose focus and interest fairly quickly if it isn’t even going to try to reach beyond that and just wallow in it the way ASOFAI does. That’s my same issue with the franchise you like; it just… stops there. It’s fine if it goes there, but I want more, without any “doing more is not as bleak, we have a doctor’s note to stop here” excuses.
That’s fine; just not for me. I see the plot rails way too quickly, already know what CDPR expects me to do and what typically happens if I try to step out of bounds by caring about other people too much or even try to improve society somewhat.
For very similar reasons I also tried, disliked, and stopped playing each and every Witcher game pushed on me, after multiple recommendations each time, especially for the third one. It’s a subjective thing.
ok but inventing entirely novel forms of shit can rob the narrative of some of its ability to effectively critique the present day, concerns become abstracted beyond the audience’s ability to relate to them
part of the reason cyberpunk has remained relevant is precisely because the things it critiqued in its early days are still present today
Something can be stale to the point of being Flanderized in its own genre, which is fine and even good to some, but not to others.
part of the reason cyberpunk has remained relevant is precisely because the things it critiqued in its early days are still present today
Sure, sure, but updating almost nothing to meet the present reality (even the USSR is somewhat still existence in the game’s setting) is making that “still present today” more and more vague.
I’m going to be a real asshole now and argue that the total cultural stagnation adds a bit to the bleakness of the setting and Johnny even points it out in several instances
Shadowrun, as a counter-example that you definitely can’t dismiss as easily as the other one I gave, is a franchise that decade after decade, for better or for worse, does change. It can be a bleak, even dark setting, but it doesn’t wallow in creativity-stifling excuses like “if nothing changes, that’s actually the message. Yeah, that’s the ticket.” It also helps that there’s a lot of urban-legend style street magic and lots of color and variety so it isn’t just 1980s aesthetics forever and ever.
I know what it’s doing. It’s awfully convenient too, to just extend what was in the 2020s to the 2070s and say “it’s the same because it’s bleaker that way, maaaan.”
Could have been bleaker in newer, updated ways, the way Watch Dogs 2 was, for example.
tbh I’ve not seen anything of Watch Dogs or its sequel that made me do anything but disregard it as shallow trash, but then again I never looked very closely. So maybe I’m just too dismissive. What’s so great about it?
I think I might just be enamored by the experience of deflecting bullets with a katana and using a mag rifle to shoot people through walls or something but I really do love the setting of CP2077. I’m willing to overlook that bit of laziness and let it rest on its laurels, because I really felt they nailed the atmosphere even if it was a janky piece of shit.
I feel the same way about the CDPR take on the Cyberpunk franchise. I gave up playing it and watched some fairly long critical reviews instead.
I could ask the same question. I didn’t say Watch Dogs 2 was high art but it was trying something other than “what if Cyberpunk setting but 50 years later with more copaganda and a lot less punk?”
That’s fine and you can enjoy that all you like. I’m talking themes and messaging for the most part, not moment to moment gameplay. The game certainly is less of a chore to actually play than the Witcher series was.
What I like about CP2077 is that when you take the setting as a whole, not just as presented in the game (though visually and aurally they really do a fantastic fucking job, I really must stress that) it’s basically the most purely distilled essence of the genre you can get anywhere. I’m not sure how bleak Watch Dogs 2 is, but is it “Africa and a good chunk of South Asia pretty much entirely depopulated due to starvation since no corporations wanted to invest in hydroponics skyscrapers there” bleak? Is it “rats and homeless people are mentioned in the same breath and both disposed of with nerve gas” bleak? It’s so fucking ridiculously bleak that it becomes humorous, and then keeps going to become sad again, because it’s so fucking believable. It’s entirely believable that US intelligence agencies would just fucking coup the country and do drug wars in South America to line their pockets and strengthen their grip until it just collapses into an economically broken heap. It’s disturbingly plausible that corporations would gain so much power that they engage in open warfare with each other over security contracts. It’s a setting that’s ridiculous and over the top and cheesy but in a way that somehow resonates deeper than one which takes itself more seriously.
There’s a powerful manic energy to the setting that is barely masking a despair that runs to its deepest hollows. Articles you find discuss the horrors of companies being allowed to enforce cyberware installations like dress codes, and how it’s not a big leap for them to enclose and monetize and entirely control human reproduction, creativity, and thought. It’s a society that has entirely given up hope and is running out the clock in as flashy and fun a way as possible. The highest aspirations most mercs have is dying violently and gloriously, in a way that makes people remember you.
It is, in a word, Jokerfied
(Or maybe I’m just a pretentious drunken fuckwad lol)
Again, you do you. I have problematic favorites of my own, but when it comes to bleak future dystopias, I could easily find something a lot more diverse, creative, and complex that isn’t so rigidly confined in the tropes under whatever excuse and dares to reach out from there, including into the supernatural. By that I mean Shadowrun as the first and most shining example, rough patches and bad editions at times and all.
I actually enjoy grim fantasy medieval settings, as a parallel example, but if the bleakness is all that there is to emphasize, I’m going to lose focus and interest fairly quickly if it isn’t even going to try to reach beyond that and just wallow in it the way ASOFAI does. That’s my same issue with the franchise you like; it just… stops there. It’s fine if it goes there, but I want more, without any “doing more is not as bleak, we have a doctor’s note to stop here” excuses.
To be clear: if it was a book I’d entirely agree. But as a giant digital diorama to fuck around in, I adore it
That’s fine; just not for me. I see the plot rails way too quickly, already know what CDPR expects me to do and what typically happens if I try to step out of bounds by caring about other people too much or even try to improve society somewhat.
For very similar reasons I also tried, disliked, and stopped playing each and every Witcher game pushed on me, after multiple recommendations each time, especially for the third one. It’s a subjective thing.
ok but inventing entirely novel forms of shit can rob the narrative of some of its ability to effectively critique the present day, concerns become abstracted beyond the audience’s ability to relate to them
part of the reason cyberpunk has remained relevant is precisely because the things it critiqued in its early days are still present today
I wasn’t asking for that.
Something can be stale to the point of being Flanderized in its own genre, which is fine and even good to some, but not to others.
Sure, sure, but updating almost nothing to meet the present reality (even the USSR is somewhat still existence in the game’s setting) is making that “still present today” more and more vague.