ou might have seen that we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. I think there’s some necessary context to understand what this means to the users on this instance.
How federation works
The way federation works is that the community on beehaw.org is an organization of posts, and you’re subscribed to it despite your account being on lemmy.world. Now someone posts on that community (created on beehaw.org), on which server is that post hosted?
It’s hosted on both! It’s hosted on any instance that has a subscriber. It’s also hosted on lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml, etc. Every instance that has a subscriber is going to have a copy of this post. That’s why if you host your own instance, you’ll often get a ton of text data just in your own server.
And the copies all stay in sync with each other using ActivityPub. So you’re reading the post that’s host on lemmy.world, and someone with an account on beehaw.org is reading the same post on beehaw.org, and the posts are kept in sync via ActivityPub. Whenever someone posts to that community or comments on a post, that data is shared to all the versions across the fediverse, and these versions are kept in sync. So up until 5 hours ago, they were the same post!
“True”-ness
A key concept that will matter in the next section is the idea of a “true” version. Effectively, one version of these posts is the “true” version, that every other community reflects. The “true” version is the one hosted on the instance that hosts the community. So the “true” version of a beehaw.org community post is the one actually hosted on beehaw.org. We have a copy, but ours is only a copy. If you post to our copy, it updates the “true” version on beehaw.org, and then all the other instances look to the “true” version on beehaw to update themselves.
The same goes for communities hosted on lemmy.world or lemmy.ml. Defederation affects how information is shared between instances. If you keep track of where the “true” version is hosted, it becomes a lot easier to understand what is going on.
How defederation works
Now take that example post from earlier, the one on beehaw.org. The “true” version of the post is on beehaw.org but the post is still hosted on both instances (again, it has a copy hosted on all instances). Let’s say someone with an account on beehaw.org comments on that post. That comment is going to be sent to every version of that post via ActivityPub, as the “true” version has been updated. That is, every version EXCEPT lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. So users on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works won’t get that comment, because we’ve been defederated from beehaw.org. If we write a comment, it will only be visible from accounts on lemmy.world, because we posted to a copy, but our copy is now out of sync with the “true” version. So we can appear to interact with the post, but those interactions are ONLY visible by other lemmy.world accounts, since our comments aren’t send to other versions. As the “true” version is hosted on beehaw, and we no longer get beehaw updates due to defederation, we will not see comments from ANY other community on those posts (including from other defederated instances like sh.itjust.works).
The same goes for posting to beehaw communities. We can still do that. However, the “true” version of those communities are the ones on beehaw, so our posts will not be shared to other instances via ActivityPub. And all of this is true for Beehaw users with our communities. Beehaw users can continue to see and interact with Lemmy.world communities, but those interactions are only visible to other Beehaw users, since the “true” versions of the Lemmy.world communities (the ones sent to/synced with every other instance) is the Lemmy.world one.
Communities on other instances, for example lemmy.ml, are unaffected by this. Lemmy.world and beehaw.org users will still be able to interact with those communities, but posts/comments from lemmy.world users won’t be visible to beehaw.org users, as defederation prevents our posts/comments from being sent to the version of these posts hosted on beehaw.org. However, as the “true” version is the one on the third instance, we can still see everything from beehaw.org users. So we see a more filled in version than the beehaw users.
Why can I still see posts/comments from beehaw users?
Until they defederated us, posts/comments were being sent to lemmy.world, so we can see everything from before defederation. After defederation, we are no longer receiving or sending updates. So there are now multiple versions of those posts.
Why can I still interact with beehaw communities?
This won’t ever stop. You’ll notice that all posts after defederation are only from lemmy.world users. You won’t see posts/comments from ANY other instance (including instances that ) on beehaw.org communities.
Those communities will quickly suck for us, as we’re only talking to other lemmy.world users. Your posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. I highly recommend just unsubscribing from those communities, since they’re pretty pointless for us to be in right now.
Why do I still see comments from beehaw users on lemmy.world communities?
Again, comments from before defederation were still sent to us. After defederation, it will no longer be possible for beehaw users to interact with the “true” version of lemmy.world communities. Their posts/comments are not being sent to any other lemmy. They also aren’t getting updates from any other lemmy, as the “true” version of those communities is on our instance.
Why do I see posts/comments from beehaw users on communities outside lemmy.world and beehaw.org?
That’s because the “true” version of those posts is outside beehaw. So we get updates from those posts. And lemmy.world didn’t defederate beehaw, so posts/comments from beehaw users can still come to versions hosted on lemmy.world.
The reverse is not true. Because beehaw defederate lemmy.world, any post/comment from a lemmy.world users will NOT be sent to the beehaw version of the post.
This seems like it’s worse for beehaw users than for us?
Yes. In my opinion, this is an extraordinarily dumb act by the beehaw instance owners. It’s worse for beehaw users than for us, and will likely result in many beehaw users leaving that instance. They said in their post that this is a nuke, but I don’t think they fully assessed the blast area. Based on their post, I don’t think they fully understand what defederation does.
I read that whole thing, and no speculation as to why theyve done this?
The beehaw admin said, to grossly paraphrase, they don’t have enough admins to deal with the extra activity and they’re “mildly annoyed” that sh.itjust.works and lemmy.world have “open registration” policies as they feel it invites trolls and the like.
🤷
Edit: full post if you want to read it. I left out some stuff about ethos and spirit and stuff.
So do they intend to defederate from all instances with open registration? Because there are a lot out there…
Their goal is to stop troll users from registering on open sign up instances and spamming hate at their users.
Beehaws goal isn’t to reactively deal with hate. It’s to do their best to ensure their users don’t see it in the first place. That’s not everyone’s goal, but it is how Beehaw operates, and how they have operated for over a year now, long before the new influx of users.
So, when two large instances became a source of troll users spewing hate, aside from defederation, they had no other options to proactively stop that hate from impacting their users. All of the other tools are reactive, and that doesn’t meet Beehaw’s needs.
Wouldn’t it then make more sense to implement such a space where you simply don’t have the possibility of other instances interacting with your space? I mean it sounds like what they want to have could be much better achieved by a traditional forum instead of the fediverse
No, because they’re looking for community and connection and content just like everyone else. It’s just that their threshold for exposure to bigotry is lower than yours.
Well in my understanding you just can’t have both. Either you want a safe space where the users are proactively shielded from anything remotely offensive even getting to them (which is how I understand beehaws explanations of what beehaw is supposed to be) or you are open to other communities where you then have to remove offensive posts reactively
They can have both. They’re literally doing it. It’s just that their thresholds are different to yours
They’ve just blocked two of the largest instances from interacting with them and their users from interacting with those instances. Only one dude from another big instance that isn’t blocked yet that posts something inappropriate would be enough to have them block that instance too. So in the end, people who are registered at beehaw will mostly only be able to interact with other beehaw users and need to have an account on a different instance to interact with the other ones.
Which makes beehaw just like a traditional forum, where I would need to have a separate account on beehaw to make sure I’m always able to view their content in case they choose to block my instance because of something someone else from my instance posted.
As you said before, there are no other proactive tools available aside from defederation, that’s why I said Lemmy in its current state doesn’t look like the right place for such a community to begin with, maybe in the future when other tools get available, who knows.
Yes
Arguably yes, but they decided upon Lemmy and grew their community to a point where it became too late/too inconvenient to switch. I don’t know if they ever posted their rationale behind choosing Lemmy, but I may try looking around at some point as I’m genuinely curious.
I think right now, many of their own users already face inconvenience by not having access to lemmy.world and many other communities anymore without creating a second account there so they could just as well create such a second account on a traditional forum^^
The problem is carrying over all the other posts & the like made there to a more traditional forum though, plus all the backend changing about involved. They understandably don’t want to basically start their community over from scratch.
Those bothered enough by the decision will simply make second accounts on more flexible instances instead (as some already have), while those that understood the kind of space they were signing up for probably don’t mind too much and are happy with the decision.
All that said, part of me thinks even if they wanted a reddit-style site to build a community on, they may have just overlooked Postmill somewhere in the process (maybe it wasn’t open sourced yet? dunno!) & settled on Lemmy. I honestly wasn’t aware of Postmill until very recently myself.
I think there’s still value in using Lemmy, even if you have no interest in federation.
I’m a former beehaw user and I honestly think they made the right call for their space. They want it to be safe and inclusive for everyone, so the large influx of users at l.world and s.i.j.w was leading trolls to beehaw in droves. No, they don’t intend to defederate from all instances. In fact, this defederation is most likely temporary until they either get more moderators, or the other two instances settle down some.
@DM_Gold Come June 30th the fedeverse is gonna explode 😁
Honestly I hope so. I like this little corner of the internet. What the mods of beehaw do is entirely up to them. If they wish to keep themselves defederated that is fine. They know that what they did was a basic nuke to their instance. They were struggling and made the right call.
That is the stupidest reason.