What I hate the most is how your score goes down for paying off a loan early. Getting penalized for actually being financially responsible is infuriating. I paid off my car less than 2 years into a 5 year loan and my score went down a couple dozen points. Just because they couldn’t get more money from interest.
Interestingly our poster here has put the reason, I hadn’t thought about it that way, but how valuable you are to creditors is what the score is. Paying off early losses then some money, so score goes down. Hilarious. What an amazing system! ☹️
That’s not why it went down. It probably went down because they had less credit extended to them after paying off the loan. How much credit you’re using affects your score.
They don’t care that u paid it off early. They care that your loan to income ratio just took a hit.
That doesn’t really make sense either. Why would a high amount of debt relative to income be a good thing? How does it indicate a person is more likely or capable of paying off a loan? If anything it means the opposite.
Oh goody. Just thought of another amazing use for ai! You could use it to figure out the maximum length and interest a single borrower would be expected to pay and set the terms on that! Wunderbar!
You know there are people in bank and credit institutions that have been doing this for centuries? Probably millennia… EU explicitly requires that some of this is done by what you call AI (i.e. mathematical models) because they are fairer than humans and safer for customers and society
Just a small correction because I worked around that area (not for loans but for investment), it’s all Algorithms rather than AI.
Algorithms are basically mathematical formulas turned into code, whilst AI is a totally different beast that can produce quite different results on slightly different inputs and it’s not really made by turning mathematical models into code but rather it’s trained with real world data containing inputs and outputs and “somehow” finds the patterns in that data and can predict the correct outputs if given fresh, never seen before inputs.
AI is probably used for fraud detection (and I expect nowadays it’s likely used in algorithmic trading to try and predict market movements) but unless a lot has changed since I was in the business, it’s not used for valuations.
It was just to give an idea that what OP mentioned is already an established thing, fairer than alternatives.
Most of the time trivial linear logistic regression is used in this context. Nowadays decision tree ensambles are pretty heavily used, which are ML. Simply they perform better with fewer data than neural networks on structured tabular data.
What you refer to as AI is probably methods based on deep learning. The truth is that they work exactly as any other algorithm that you are referring to. They are used for regression and classification, same way as a standard linear regression. The difference is that the models are non linear, and their complexity is so that a lot of data are needed to train them.
But conceptually one can absolutely create a credit score with deep neural networks. It is just an overkill, for performances that are likely worst than a random forest on relatively small training datasets
Neural networks-based methods are indeed used in fraud detection
We don’t need more discrimination in loan approval. A few years ago, Amazon built an AI that would look at resumes and rate how likely the candidate would be hired. The AI trained itself to recognize female sounding resumes (went to women’s only college, is involved in women’s organizations, does not use manly enough language) and flag those as undesirables.
Ah ok. I don’t know much about it, but I’ve heard that AI could sometimes be negative toward commonly discriminated against groups because the data that it’s trained with is. (Side note: is that true? someone pls correct me if it’s not). I jumped to the conclusion that this was the same thing. My bad
An AI is only as good as its training data. If the data is biased, then the AI will have the same bias. The fact that going to a women’s college was considered a negative (and not simply marked down as an education of unknown quality) is proof against the idea that many in the STEM field hold (myself included) that there is a lack of qualified female candidates but not an active bias against them.
The specific rule you point out is stupid but easy to hack. Your score didn’t go down because they lost the interest you’d have paid. When you pay off a secured debt, the loaned amount is deducted from your total credit potential, which increases your utilized credit percentage. The hack is to open a line of credit against the secured asset before it’s paid off or another line of unsecured credit. Your credit utilization will drop, thus increasing your score.
My score is over 800 and has been for over a decade. I have like 12 credit cards but only use 2 and pay them off every month… Costco for the store and gas and a high cash back card for everything else. The others I keep open with 1 small purchase each year. Every store wants you to have one, so they’re easy to get. I have added and paid off multiple small to medium (10-60k) secured loans over the years and my score only fluctuates a little for a few weeks then goes back because my total credit with the dozen credit cards is so large.
But most people won’t need to do that any way, it’s overkill for like 99% of people.
If you have a credit card that you use and pay off regularly, a couple of paid off car loans or something like that and no overdue bills on your history, you’ll be absolutely fine.
Exploits A) often benefit the player by letting them skip a lot of work with big rewards, and B) usually get fixed real fast.
Now if doing this meant you never had to work a job in your life again and you could get actually make significant income, sure, I’d consider it an exploit.
Where would one look to find a high cash back card? I’ve been wanting to improve my score by switching to using a credit card for primary shopping that I pay off, but I can’t seem to find any good offers/deals/contracts/whatever term you’d use for a credit card. Probably my score though.
For simple cashback without yearly fees, 2% on everything or 5% on some things is about as good as it gets. I do everything on chase for simplicity and I’ve been reasonably happy with them. Twice now they have detected someone trying to use my credit card number (not sure how they got it), stopped it, and alerted me instantly. I mostly use the freedom unlimited card which was one of the better cards when I got it a few years ago.
Not just paying a loan off early, even having the loan eventually drop off the credit report completely. This month the only change was an old, paid-off mortgage and line of credit dropped off my credit report. My credit score dropped substantially.
What I hate the most is how your score goes down for paying off a loan early. Getting penalized for actually being financially responsible is infuriating. I paid off my car less than 2 years into a 5 year loan and my score went down a couple dozen points. Just because they couldn’t get more money from interest.
Interestingly our poster here has put the reason, I hadn’t thought about it that way, but how valuable you are to creditors is what the score is. Paying off early losses then some money, so score goes down. Hilarious. What an amazing system! ☹️
The system isn’t for seeing how responsible you are, it’s for seeing how reliable you are.
They seem like similar ideas but they are quite different.
Responsibility is something capitalism can’t afford.
Fair enough!
That’s not why it went down. It probably went down because they had less credit extended to them after paying off the loan. How much credit you’re using affects your score.
They don’t care that u paid it off early. They care that your loan to income ratio just took a hit.
That doesn’t really make sense either. Why would a high amount of debt relative to income be a good thing? How does it indicate a person is more likely or capable of paying off a loan? If anything it means the opposite.
Because it’s a racket
A high amount of debt to income is absolutely a bad thing, both in life and for your credit score
Lol 5hey want u to carry a higher balance. It’s not that hard.
Sounds good!
Oh goody. Just thought of another amazing use for ai! You could use it to figure out the maximum length and interest a single borrower would be expected to pay and set the terms on that! Wunderbar!
You know there are people in bank and credit institutions that have been doing this for centuries? Probably millennia… EU explicitly requires that some of this is done by what you call AI (i.e. mathematical models) because they are fairer than humans and safer for customers and society
Check basel III for an intro on the topic
Just a small correction because I worked around that area (not for loans but for investment), it’s all Algorithms rather than AI.
Algorithms are basically mathematical formulas turned into code, whilst AI is a totally different beast that can produce quite different results on slightly different inputs and it’s not really made by turning mathematical models into code but rather it’s trained with real world data containing inputs and outputs and “somehow” finds the patterns in that data and can predict the correct outputs if given fresh, never seen before inputs.
AI is probably used for fraud detection (and I expect nowadays it’s likely used in algorithmic trading to try and predict market movements) but unless a lot has changed since I was in the business, it’s not used for valuations.
It was just to give an idea that what OP mentioned is already an established thing, fairer than alternatives.
Most of the time trivial linear logistic regression is used in this context. Nowadays decision tree ensambles are pretty heavily used, which are ML. Simply they perform better with fewer data than neural networks on structured tabular data.
What you refer to as AI is probably methods based on deep learning. The truth is that they work exactly as any other algorithm that you are referring to. They are used for regression and classification, same way as a standard linear regression. The difference is that the models are non linear, and their complexity is so that a lot of data are needed to train them.
But conceptually one can absolutely create a credit score with deep neural networks. It is just an overkill, for performances that are likely worst than a random forest on relatively small training datasets
Neural networks-based methods are indeed used in fraud detection
Well, I learn something every day!
Cheers!
No probs :)
Ummm… no. Not in tune with that, so interesting to know that I’m not the first! Haha, thanks!
We don’t need more discrimination in loan approval. A few years ago, Amazon built an AI that would look at resumes and rate how likely the candidate would be hired. The AI trained itself to recognize female sounding resumes (went to women’s only college, is involved in women’s organizations, does not use manly enough language) and flag those as undesirables.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-jobs-automation-insight-idUSKCN1MK08G
We don’t need but we’re going to get!!!
Jesus christ that’s dystopian
It’s not so much dystopian as it is just buggy software
Ah ok. I don’t know much about it, but I’ve heard that AI could sometimes be negative toward commonly discriminated against groups because the data that it’s trained with is. (Side note: is that true? someone pls correct me if it’s not). I jumped to the conclusion that this was the same thing. My bad
what it did it expose just how much inherent bias there is in hiring. even just name and gender alone.
That is both true and pivotal to this story
It’s a major hurdle in some uses of AI
An AI is only as good as its training data. If the data is biased, then the AI will have the same bias. The fact that going to a women’s college was considered a negative (and not simply marked down as an education of unknown quality) is proof against the idea that many in the STEM field hold (myself included) that there is a lack of qualified female candidates but not an active bias against them.
When buggy software is used by unreasonably powerful entities to practise (and defend) discrimination that’s dystopian…
Except it wasn’t actually launched, and they didn’t defend its discrimination but rather ended the project.
Damn that’s really dystopian. It’s a credit score that directly measures how profitable you are to others as a human.
Since all money has switched to credit, “credit score” is the same as “money score”, and “worth” is the same as “con artist ability”.
The specific rule you point out is stupid but easy to hack. Your score didn’t go down because they lost the interest you’d have paid. When you pay off a secured debt, the loaned amount is deducted from your total credit potential, which increases your utilized credit percentage. The hack is to open a line of credit against the secured asset before it’s paid off or another line of unsecured credit. Your credit utilization will drop, thus increasing your score.
My score is over 800 and has been for over a decade. I have like 12 credit cards but only use 2 and pay them off every month… Costco for the store and gas and a high cash back card for everything else. The others I keep open with 1 small purchase each year. Every store wants you to have one, so they’re easy to get. I have added and paid off multiple small to medium (10-60k) secured loans over the years and my score only fluctuates a little for a few weeks then goes back because my total credit with the dozen credit cards is so large.
I like video games, and the challenges they provide.
The game you’re playing is stupid, and no one should have to install that shit.
Good on you got doing it I guess, but it continues to persist, which is problematic.
It’s not really a game, more of an exploit.
But most people won’t need to do that any way, it’s overkill for like 99% of people.
If you have a credit card that you use and pay off regularly, a couple of paid off car loans or something like that and no overdue bills on your history, you’ll be absolutely fine.
Eh.
Exploits A) often benefit the player by letting them skip a lot of work with big rewards, and B) usually get fixed real fast.
Now if doing this meant you never had to work a job in your life again and you could get actually make significant income, sure, I’d consider it an exploit.
I can’t agree with you on this.
It’s not a game u fucking moron it is a measure of responsibility.
Just admit you’re irresponsible and can’t hack the most simple math required to determine risk.
Fucking assholes blaming the ruler cuz they can’t measure. Lmfao.
No, it’s a game.
And thanks for making it personal. Even tho it was entirely unnecessary.
Dick face.
Where would one look to find a high cash back card? I’ve been wanting to improve my score by switching to using a credit card for primary shopping that I pay off, but I can’t seem to find any good offers/deals/contracts/whatever term you’d use for a credit card. Probably my score though.
Nerdwallet has a ranking of credit cards based on categories (travel, cash back, etc.). You can try checking it out.
For simple cashback without yearly fees, 2% on everything or 5% on some things is about as good as it gets. I do everything on chase for simplicity and I’ve been reasonably happy with them. Twice now they have detected someone trying to use my credit card number (not sure how they got it), stopped it, and alerted me instantly. I mostly use the freedom unlimited card which was one of the better cards when I got it a few years ago.
Discover and Amex pay most statistically but some.places don’t accept them for that reason
That’s only on the VantageScore - the free score most places show. It isn’t actually used by more than a handful of institutions.
FICO, the system used by the vast majority of lenders, considers closed accounts just the same as open.
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Not just paying a loan off early, even having the loan eventually drop off the credit report completely. This month the only change was an old, paid-off mortgage and line of credit dropped off my credit report. My credit score dropped substantially.
I see where you’re coming from.
Credit scores aren’t about how responsible you are, they’re about how well you can stick to an agreement.
paying off the loan early is a part of any agreement, otherwise it wouldnt be an option
credit scores are entirely and exclusively about how good of a debt slave you are
That’s not why it went down…lol.
Tell me u don’t understand how credit works…
Enlighten us
I did below