While this is all true, and I agree that it is a big part of it, the lack of actual consequences for the worst behaved kids at schools is why schools are struggling. You used to be able to properly expel children instead you now exclude, and unless its exceptional circumstances you have to take them back if no other school will take them. Even in the event of exceptional circumstances the kid has a legal right to education so the LA has to provide this somewhere, usually in isolation at the same school, which drags resources from elsewhere from a very limited budget.
Going back far enough and we used to have schools for this group of children that they would get transferred to who had the staff ratios and skills to deal with them properly but they mostly got shut or moved private as part of this change.
Once the kids work out that there are no consequences to their action what do you think will happen?
Couple this with kids who do not belong at a standard school because of behavioural and learning disabilities because there are not enough places at specialist schools and/or their parents straight up refuse to have them diagnosed (and the primary school deliberately omitted it from the hand over) and you end up with way too many kids who are next to impossible to manage.
I am talking about kids who you are not allowed to make loud noises in the class room, or boys that are not allowed to sit next to girls because they get grabby, or kids that throw chairs at teachers, or kids that bring knifes to school, or sell drugs. Without the schools that are geared up to handle them, and a robust process to move them to these schools that takes weeks not terms to do this is not going to get better.
The ability to properly expel happened a few years before Osborne became chancellor, and the schools started shutting around then as well. Osbourne accelerated the process but hes not the initial architect of this problem.
Originally it was sold as every child is entitled to an education, and the very worst kids were not getting one. There have been subsequent judgements against LAs/Gov based around the 98 rights act, particularly A2P1 and there were cases before that as well.
You also had schools booting kids out around exam season just to improve their grade average, but like another over played boogeyman benefit scroungers the actual amount doing this was very low.
So austerity has made it worse, but it is not the cause of this problem.
While this is all true, and I agree that it is a big part of it, the lack of actual consequences for the worst behaved kids at schools is why schools are struggling. You used to be able to properly expel children instead you now exclude, and unless its exceptional circumstances you have to take them back if no other school will take them.
We had poor houses not long before this also. People are expected to hold 2 jobs just to live these days. You cannot work long hours and look after kids at the same time. It is this sort of selfish attitude that has empowered the Tories to push the standards as far as we see now. We don’t need a race to the bottom.
Other parents manage it in the same area, same backgrounds. Besides once kids get to this point in secondary school its usually too late to intervene in place as the behaviours have become in grained.
Cameron cancelling sure start due to his dislike of the state telling parents what to do caused a lot of the long term behaviour problems we are experiencing. However even if you reintroduced it bigger and better than it ever was it still takes around a decade before it showing real improvement at secondary school.
What we need is solutions for the existing cohort, and frankly hand waving what is causing mass disruption for students that actually want to work, lowering their life time outcomes, is not addressing the problem giving them a free pass.
You could introduce UBI tomorrow or double minium wage and it would do next to fuck all for this problem. The parents do not give a shit, and/or do not have the skills, and/or the kids are too far gone to fix the majority of the problem.
What a pathetic privileged attitude to have. Some people have no issues in life at all. Being born to the right parents should not be a metric for the benefits you receive in society. You really have no idea the problems some have to face.
I grew up in a deprived area. Both my parents were alcoholics. I grew up learning how to survive the hard way. But I got a lucky break early on. I have paid my way since I was 20 and retired on my own cash at 55. My kids have absolutely no idea what that sort of life entails. This idea that you can put people down because they lost out on the genetic lottery is incredibly insulting.
It is easy to throw a dishonest person into prison and ignore the issue. What a lot do not realise is that honesty comes with security. A lot of people cannot afford to be honest, because they are struggling just to live. To break this cycle, it takes commitment from government to educate and facilitate that move away from this. Something sadly lacking from today’s government, and the people who support them.
As for your comments regrading UBI. I see you provide nothing to back that claim up. Let me help you.
Investing in society makes everyone richer. There are a huge amount of studies that prove this. Accepting that some people are just not worth the effort is a very small minded selfish attitude to have. Instead of believing the crap that the Tory media promote do some research.
Your link says nothing about improving outcomes of existing secondary school children just that they attend school more. The two are not directly linked, the worst children often have the highest attendance and are often the first ones there and the last to leave as their home life is so bad.
Its also a pathetic privileged attitude to assume that all of these kids are poor.
Equating prison with expelling kids to behavioural schools is just pathetic as well.
F+ for trolling, at least I hope thats what it is.
Your link says nothing about improving outcomes of existing secondary school children just that they attend school more. The two are not directly linked, the worst children often have the highest attendance and are often the first ones there and the last to leave as their home life is so bad.
What gibberish is this? Can you back this up with any evidence? Kids attending school is a benefit. To state anything other than that is beyond crass. I left school without any qualifications at all. I got my qualifications after leaving home. I actively avoided scrutiny at school because it is embarrassing to be forced into confronting the situation I was living in. Again you have absolutely no idea.
You declared these people poor when you stated
Other parents manage it in the same area, same backgrounds.
Equating prison with expelling kids to behavioural schools is just pathetic as well.
I did not. I stated that some find it acceptable to avoid the issue by locking people up. There is a prevalent attitude to penalise being poor and needy. Where as robbing the country of millions is acceptable and something we should support. Imagine how people would be helped by the money Michelle Mone grabbed from the tax payer.
To state anything other than that is beyond crass.
Never stated that, please try harder, always stated they should be sent to the correct school for their needs.
Actually you did that first:
We had poor houses not long before this also. People are expected to hold 2 jobs just to live these days. You cannot work long hours and look after kids at the same time. It is this sort of selfish attitude that has empowered the Tories to push the standards as far as we see now. We don’t need a race to the bottom.
I’m revising your trolling rating to a U its that bad.
No true, you never made pompous, demeaning better than thou comments at all. Meanwhile all your original statements have been edited/deleted. Truly sad attempt to push a Tory narrative.
I grew up in a deprived area. Both my parents were alcoholics. I grew up learning how to survive the hard way. But I got a lucky break early on. I have paid my way since I was 20 and retired on my own cash at 55. My kids have absolutely no idea what that sort of life entails. This idea that you can put people down because they lost out on the genetic lottery is incredibly insulting.
Do you believe that kids never acted out before austerity? Or is it something that only happened because of austerity?
Do you think that schools don’t try to engage with the kids and parents and get told to fuck off? That parents refuse to get their kids diagnosed for autism or ADHD? Refuse to have them medicated as directed by their doctor or sent to the correct school?
Do you think schools have gotten worse at behaviour management strategies or have they actually got access to far more approaches than before?
I actually think it’s far easier to get issues such as autism and ADHD diagnosed as a child in the last ten years if you can actually get an appointment.
Pretending that it’s down to austerity when the problems existed and made worse before due to the government of time not wanting to fall foul of ECHR and its own supreme court is just bad. Has it accelerated yes, but created by? Absolutely not.
Do you believe that kids never acted out before austerity? Or is it something that only happened because of austerity?
No. But I do believe that austerity has exacerbated the issue. If alcohol didn’t exist people would still assault other people, but with alcohol it happens more, as an example.
Do you think that schools don’t try to engage with the kids and parents and get told to fuck off?
I think they do, but not to the level that is required due to austerity cuts to education budgets. Parents telling teachers to fuck off is not acceptable. In fact I know this happens as my mother is a TA on a rough estate where this happens. This can also be linked to austerity and a lack of faith in a system that fails so many. Google what happens when people lose faith and break the so called social contract.
That parents refuse to get their kids diagnosed for autism or ADHD? Refuse to have them medicated as directed by their doctor or sent to the correct school?
Many parents just don’t know or are themselves not educated enough to want to change. I was diagnosed with ADHD in later life and honestly the symptoms of left unchecked are hard to distinguish from a failure or lazy person.
Do you think schools have gotten worse at behaviour management strategies or have they actually got access to far more approaches than before?
Both. They have access to a wealth of information, but lack the resource of time to implement it.
I actually think it’s far easier to get issues such as autism and ADHD diagnosed as a child in the last ten years if you can actually get an appointment.
I was in perpetual depression, addiction and losing job after job and was never marked as needed assistance. Only when I lucked into a good job with private healthcare was I able to seek help and sort my life out. Even now that I’ve left there to my dream career with no healthcare it’s taken a year to be referred to the NHS and that’s with a diagnosis.
Pretending that it’s down to austerity when the problems existed and made worse before due to the government of time not wanting to fall foul of ECHR and its own supreme court is just bad. Has it accelerated yes, but created by? Absolutely not.
Nobody is trying to place the blame solely on austerity, but it’s been a large contributing factor.
I do appreciate you answering my questions with your own and not answering mine.
I answered them with my own, best way to deal with such obvious bad faith leading questions.
I cannot stand the pretence that the issue wasn’t already here before austerity. I have mentioned in other responses already including the one you just replied to about the impact of austerity so you are getting mad at nothing here. For example, lack of specialist schools to send them to I have mentioned a few times now.
What caused the most harm was Cameron’s hard on for sure start despite the good progress it was having with long term behaviour improvements. He fully intended to gut it before the 2008 crash so it would have happened with or without austerity.
Shit parents produce shit kids who become shit parents in the main. Sure start interrupted that process.
While this is all true, and I agree that it is a big part of it, the lack of actual consequences for the worst behaved kids at schools is why schools are struggling. You used to be able to properly expel children instead you now exclude, and unless its exceptional circumstances you have to take them back if no other school will take them. Even in the event of exceptional circumstances the kid has a legal right to education so the LA has to provide this somewhere, usually in isolation at the same school, which drags resources from elsewhere from a very limited budget.
Going back far enough and we used to have schools for this group of children that they would get transferred to who had the staff ratios and skills to deal with them properly but they mostly got shut or moved private as part of this change.
Once the kids work out that there are no consequences to their action what do you think will happen?
Couple this with kids who do not belong at a standard school because of behavioural and learning disabilities because there are not enough places at specialist schools and/or their parents straight up refuse to have them diagnosed (and the primary school deliberately omitted it from the hand over) and you end up with way too many kids who are next to impossible to manage.
I am talking about kids who you are not allowed to make loud noises in the class room, or boys that are not allowed to sit next to girls because they get grabby, or kids that throw chairs at teachers, or kids that bring knifes to school, or sell drugs. Without the schools that are geared up to handle them, and a robust process to move them to these schools that takes weeks not terms to do this is not going to get better.
That still mostly comes down to austerity. The services these kids need aren’t available.
The ability to properly expel happened a few years before Osborne became chancellor, and the schools started shutting around then as well. Osbourne accelerated the process but hes not the initial architect of this problem.
Originally it was sold as every child is entitled to an education, and the very worst kids were not getting one. There have been subsequent judgements against LAs/Gov based around the 98 rights act, particularly A2P1 and there were cases before that as well.
You also had schools booting kids out around exam season just to improve their grade average, but like another over played boogeyman benefit scroungers the actual amount doing this was very low.
So austerity has made it worse, but it is not the cause of this problem.
We had poor houses not long before this also. People are expected to hold 2 jobs just to live these days. You cannot work long hours and look after kids at the same time. It is this sort of selfish attitude that has empowered the Tories to push the standards as far as we see now. We don’t need a race to the bottom.
Other parents manage it in the same area, same backgrounds. Besides once kids get to this point in secondary school its usually too late to intervene in place as the behaviours have become in grained.
Cameron cancelling sure start due to his dislike of the state telling parents what to do caused a lot of the long term behaviour problems we are experiencing. However even if you reintroduced it bigger and better than it ever was it still takes around a decade before it showing real improvement at secondary school.
What we need is solutions for the existing cohort, and frankly hand waving what is causing mass disruption for students that actually want to work, lowering their life time outcomes, is not addressing the problem giving them a free pass.
You could introduce UBI tomorrow or double minium wage and it would do next to fuck all for this problem. The parents do not give a shit, and/or do not have the skills, and/or the kids are too far gone to fix the majority of the problem.
What a pathetic privileged attitude to have. Some people have no issues in life at all. Being born to the right parents should not be a metric for the benefits you receive in society. You really have no idea the problems some have to face.
I grew up in a deprived area. Both my parents were alcoholics. I grew up learning how to survive the hard way. But I got a lucky break early on. I have paid my way since I was 20 and retired on my own cash at 55. My kids have absolutely no idea what that sort of life entails. This idea that you can put people down because they lost out on the genetic lottery is incredibly insulting.
It is easy to throw a dishonest person into prison and ignore the issue. What a lot do not realise is that honesty comes with security. A lot of people cannot afford to be honest, because they are struggling just to live. To break this cycle, it takes commitment from government to educate and facilitate that move away from this. Something sadly lacking from today’s government, and the people who support them.
As for your comments regrading UBI. I see you provide nothing to back that claim up. Let me help you.
Investing in society makes everyone richer. There are a huge amount of studies that prove this. Accepting that some people are just not worth the effort is a very small minded selfish attitude to have. Instead of believing the crap that the Tory media promote do some research.
Your link says nothing about improving outcomes of existing secondary school children just that they attend school more. The two are not directly linked, the worst children often have the highest attendance and are often the first ones there and the last to leave as their home life is so bad.
Its also a pathetic privileged attitude to assume that all of these kids are poor.
Equating prison with expelling kids to behavioural schools is just pathetic as well.
F+ for trolling, at least I hope thats what it is.
What gibberish is this? Can you back this up with any evidence? Kids attending school is a benefit. To state anything other than that is beyond crass. I left school without any qualifications at all. I got my qualifications after leaving home. I actively avoided scrutiny at school because it is embarrassing to be forced into confronting the situation I was living in. Again you have absolutely no idea.
You declared these people poor when you stated
I did not. I stated that some find it acceptable to avoid the issue by locking people up. There is a prevalent attitude to penalise being poor and needy. Where as robbing the country of millions is acceptable and something we should support. Imagine how people would be helped by the money Michelle Mone grabbed from the tax payer.
Never stated that, please try harder, always stated they should be sent to the correct school for their needs.
Actually you did that first:
I’m revising your trolling rating to a U its that bad.
No true, you never made pompous, demeaning better than thou comments at all. Meanwhile all your original statements have been edited/deleted. Truly sad attempt to push a Tory narrative.
What, like this?
Do you believe children act out for no reason?
If not, do you think it prudent to ascertain why someone is acting out?
If so, do you believe that the last decade of austerity impedes the ability to ascertain the reasons?
Do you believe that kids never acted out before austerity? Or is it something that only happened because of austerity?
Do you think that schools don’t try to engage with the kids and parents and get told to fuck off? That parents refuse to get their kids diagnosed for autism or ADHD? Refuse to have them medicated as directed by their doctor or sent to the correct school?
Do you think schools have gotten worse at behaviour management strategies or have they actually got access to far more approaches than before?
I actually think it’s far easier to get issues such as autism and ADHD diagnosed as a child in the last ten years if you can actually get an appointment.
Pretending that it’s down to austerity when the problems existed and made worse before due to the government of time not wanting to fall foul of ECHR and its own supreme court is just bad. Has it accelerated yes, but created by? Absolutely not.
No. But I do believe that austerity has exacerbated the issue. If alcohol didn’t exist people would still assault other people, but with alcohol it happens more, as an example.
I think they do, but not to the level that is required due to austerity cuts to education budgets. Parents telling teachers to fuck off is not acceptable. In fact I know this happens as my mother is a TA on a rough estate where this happens. This can also be linked to austerity and a lack of faith in a system that fails so many. Google what happens when people lose faith and break the so called social contract.
Many parents just don’t know or are themselves not educated enough to want to change. I was diagnosed with ADHD in later life and honestly the symptoms of left unchecked are hard to distinguish from a failure or lazy person.
Do you think schools have gotten worse at behaviour management strategies or have they actually got access to far more approaches than before?
Both. They have access to a wealth of information, but lack the resource of time to implement it.
I was in perpetual depression, addiction and losing job after job and was never marked as needed assistance. Only when I lucked into a good job with private healthcare was I able to seek help and sort my life out. Even now that I’ve left there to my dream career with no healthcare it’s taken a year to be referred to the NHS and that’s with a diagnosis.
Nobody is trying to place the blame solely on austerity, but it’s been a large contributing factor.
I do appreciate you answering my questions with your own and not answering mine.
I answered them with my own, best way to deal with such obvious bad faith leading questions.
I cannot stand the pretence that the issue wasn’t already here before austerity. I have mentioned in other responses already including the one you just replied to about the impact of austerity so you are getting mad at nothing here. For example, lack of specialist schools to send them to I have mentioned a few times now.
What caused the most harm was Cameron’s hard on for sure start despite the good progress it was having with long term behaviour improvements. He fully intended to gut it before the 2008 crash so it would have happened with or without austerity.
Shit parents produce shit kids who become shit parents in the main. Sure start interrupted that process.