Posting this because I think it’s an interesting examination of the overlap (or lack thereof) between atheists and general skeptics. It’s worth remembering that the term ‘atheism’ only means a rejection of theistic beliefs; non-theistic beliefs that are nonetheless irrational and unsupported by evidence are not relevant to the term. And yet one can easily see why there is an overlap between these two communities and why many atheists scoff at other atheists who profess belief in things like astrology, ghosts, reincarnation, etc.
I’m definitely one of those who doesn’t believe in anything supernatural, but I’ve certainly met atheists who do. It’s worth remembering the two groups aren’t synonymous.
Consciousness is not bound by physical laws. Just like a computer game can allow you to use magic or have superpowers or whatever the game designer desires, completely independent of reality. The consciousness exist in a virtual reality construct of the mind, and is not bound by the simple rules of physics.
This allows free will to exist, although we don’t yet understand exactly how.
I respect philosophers of consciousness such as for instance Daniell Denett, who has progressed my understanding of consciousness a lot.
He does not believe in free will, which has become a much more popular opinion the past couple of decades, and which I was pretty convinced about too. But as Daniell Denett says, it is a very convincing illusion.
I have come to believe that it’s like the moon landing, the reason it is so convincing, is because it’s true.
I’d say there is evidence either way, so you can’t say it’s without evidence, I also pose the claim that Quantum physics unpredictability is irrelevant to the existence of free will. That is not what free will or consciousness arises from.
But you are right we cannot prove truly free will exist, and maybe it comes down to definition. Because we cannot have freedom to think that which we are incapable of imagining. But we are free to think we can fly, and then build a flying machine.
Consciousness is an emergent property of underlying factors and is absolutely subject to physical laws. Have you ever gone to a dentist and taken gas? Your consciousness and its processes were altered during that time specifically because your consciousness is inextricable linked to your body. There is no mind over matter because mind is matter. What you’re talking about is metaphysics. We’re not ghosts crammed into a meat robot. Our consciousness emerges from our body like a flower blooms on a bush and if you poison the bush the mind is poisoned too.
You are confusing the concepts, consciousness obviously arises from brains, and brains are subject to physical laws. But the consciousness exist in a virtual reality constructed by the brain.
So while the brain is dependent on physical laws to work, it’s the same with a computer game, that relies on the computer to work, but both are disconnected from reality in the way they work.
Computer games work through software, this allows software to function way beyond the mere concept of transistors switching.
In much the same way, our brains have layers, where although our consciousness is tied to the physical properties of the brain, it is not tied DIRECTLY to it. If it was tied directly, it would be an automaton without consciousness, and couldn’t for instance have memory or learn.
However this works, there is a sort of “shim” between consciousness and the physical brain. Just like in a computer there is are drivers, API and software on top of the hardware, before you get the final result of for instance a computer game or an AI.
Absolutely definitely NOT! I don’t claim we have souls or any other nonsense of that sort.
No. Your consciousness is an emergent property of your physical brain, and your consciousness is in fact subject to the same physical laws as it’s substrate. There is no decoupling the two. One emerges from the other. Believing that your mind is decoupled from your body, and acts independently from it, is a metaphysical belief for which there is no evidence, in fact, there is contrary evidence.
Your video game analogy is flawed for a number of reasons, but let’s see if we can work with it. You imagine that there is a software/hardware relationship between the mind and brain and that is not true. You mind and brain developed with eachother and are inseparable. You can’t remove the mind from the brian and you can’t remove the brain from the mind. Software is installed into a computer from by an outside force. You have to download it, or stick in a DVD if you’re old like me. It requires an outside agent, and if your mind is software, who is that agent? Is it god? Is it Steve Jobs ghost? Have we reinvented religion?
If your mind is a computer game (which it isn’t) then all the things you see on your screen, the magic, the monsters, etc. All of those things are deterministic. It’s a set collection of ones and zeroes running through a processor and reacting predictably to the outside stimulus. Your video game experience is an emergent property of ones and zeroes being process on a silicon chip. You cannot separate the video game experience from the silicon chip any more than you could separate the mind from the brain.
You say you believe that the mind is “Connected” to the brain but not “Directly”, then what is the nature of that connection and on what are you basing that belief? If the mind does not does not reside in the brain, where does the mind reside?
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True, but the brain is way more sophisticated, and works more like an FPGA with self modifying code. The brain reprograms itself when it learns, and although that reprogramming is physical. the virtual reality constructed by the brain is not. Just like a simulation is independent on what hardware it is running on, you can simulate whatever disregarding whether it runs on one computational machine or another. The simulation is dependent on the hardware to run, but how it runs is not. Very basically you can simulate water without having any water in the machine.
The way your mind works is like a virtual machine, you have created a model in your brain of the reality you live in. In your brain you are able to manipulate that reality to predict outcomes, without doing anything to the actual reality. That’s basically exactly the same as a virtual reality, which is where my Computer game analogy comes from. Because computer games too are simple forms of virtual realities.
But further than that, you can also imagine things that are not real, and create new concepts that never existed before. That because the consciousness is not limited by reality.
Not exactly, but close enough, depends on how “mind” is defined. The mind is definitely tied to the brain, the consciousness is what we may consider the highest function of the mind. The mind constructs a virtual reality, and our self consciousness exist in that virtual reality, and nowhere else. The mind is actually the shim, or middle layer or connection between brain and consciousness. Consciousness is absolutely dependent on the brain to work, but it is not directly dependent on the brain in how it works. The exact same number of neurons in 2 different brains can work very similarly from a physical perspective. But the consciousnesses and minds can be night and day apart. Like the mind is the “programming” of the brain, and our consciousness is a result of that programming.
Sorry that my answer is so long. I’m trying to express the idea as clearly as I possibly can.