I’m going with this Dell and returning my Lenovo Slim 7 Pro. In my previous thread saying I switched to Windows I read that Dells offer great compatibility. I ordered this Dell XPS 13 and plan on going with Pop OS. Thoughts on this? Good choice?
Edit: Apparently it’s certified with Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. I assume I should go with This particular Ubuntu version then?
If you don’t care about using a webcam (it’s very unstable on linux), the machine is good. However, if you want to use a linux laptop, get a linux laptop, not something conceived for windows with linux as an afterthought. https://linuxpreloaded.com/ has a list of shops that sell linux first hardware
If you do however insist on buying something that’s windows first, it’s advisable to check the linux hardware database with your model first. For example, here’s the model you’re buying. Somewhat consistently, these components aren’t recognized across distros:
- Alder Lake Imaging Signal Processor
- Goodix USB2.0 MISC
- USB Bridge
and no webcam is detected at all. Having one of the Dell XPS 13s myself, I’d rather go for a TuxedoComputers laptop if given the choice, but if you don’t have that option and don’t care about the webcam, then it’s good choice.
Just want to add that Framework isn’t quite Linux first, more like Linux second / Linux conscious. With some tweaking it works great but there are sometimes little issues that crop up, especially if you’re using the newest machines.
For example, when I got my Intel 12th gen Framework last year, X was super laggy (opening a terminal and typing a few characters might take several seconds). You’d have to end up disabling some kernel power management setting. That was fixed in later kernel releases and was because it was new hardware, but their focus pre-release was making sure Windows worked well on it, not Linux. Technically even now there’s some kind of conflict between the ambient light sensor and the screen brightness keys and the fix has always been to disable the light sensor, so I’ve never actually used that feature on my laptop (unsure why Windows is unaffected).
It’s still a great laptop and I absolutely love them, but I think other shops like System76 should get credit for their top-tier Linux support.
Thanks for the comment. That was the impression I got as well, but a few other comments I’ve read (on other threads) seemed to imply it was a linux first laptop.
I do remember the first time I opened the page, it was a windows laptop and was the reason I decided against buying one. Your comment does confirm it for me. I’ll add a note to my previous comment.
I had my framework AMD and I havent encountered any problem with fedora 39; besides very early bios (only affecting batch 1 and early batch 2, I believe) and a AMD display bug (which is documented in detail and fixable with one command).
Everything else works extremely smoothly, including webcam, brightness key, ambient light sensor, and privacy shutter. Honestly, I would put their support against any linux first laptop, their support team is very responsive, and their support lead was the ex-support lead from system 76.
One more bit of information: the very laptop on the fedora workstation webpage is a framework laptop. They seem to be on very good term with most distro developers, and likely will get more attention when something goes wrong.
I think most of the problem you mentioned are the nature of new hardware, not caused by poor support from framework.
However, one of the reason I landed on framework is because they offer cutting-edge hardware that other manufactures don’t.
I think they are still the only linux manufacture that uses AMD 7040U chip, which is a great everyday chip with excellent power efficiency. This kind of make them stand out from the competition for me.
I don’t think their Linux support is bad, but it’s not Linux first. If Windows users had to run a command to fix a display bug it would have been held back until it was fixed. With something like System76 you get a laptop with Linux preinstalled that just works, no commands necessary.
Keep in mind I called them Linux-conscious / Linux-second. They still focus on making it a fantastic machine for Linux users, but I think it’s a little less than some other shops provide for Linux.
They do let their Windows DIY user fix problems, for example the new AMD laptop requires a modified ISO, since the Windows installer don’t have up-to-date wifi drivers.
Also Windows user needs to use command prompt to install firmwares, whereas Linux users don’t need to.
All of these are documented in detail in their guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Windows+11+Installation+on+the+Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition/116
So I don’t think they prefer Windows than Linux. It is just the nature of cutting-edge hardware: I believe they made the tradeoff between cutting-edge and stability (keep in mind, you can buy older hardware as well), not between Windows and Linux.
The only thing they can do better is have laptop preloaded with linux, but I cn kind of understand keeping laptop in stock with three different OS’s and a DIY version while keeping everything up-to-date is a logistic challenge. Yet several linux laptop manufacture do offer that option.
What was your issue with the webcam? It may depend on the distro but mine works well even though I almost always use an external camera instead because most webcam quality sucks on any laptop and OS anyway.
Supporting Linux/open-source companies is certainly a plus. Not that there machines will work better but it makes more sense if you really want to adhere to the global philosophy of open-source. For the record I still didn’t go that route because either I couldn’t find the right machine or the price was significantly higher for similar products and I didn’t take the “risk” to spend more without enough certainty on the build quality. Experience varies and I’m sad to say that I convinced a friend to switch to Linux and he immediately jump on a Tuxedo machine but unfortunately it had a lot of issues out of the box. One remains but I will not blame the company for this one (compatibility with a hiDPI external monitor).
The webcam straight up doesn’t work on ubuntu and debian, which are supposed to be supported. I’ve tried multiple things from around the web (“add this apt repo”, “enable/disable this kernel module”, “use this git repo with
dkms”, …) and consistently ran into issues. Now I just use an external camera.
Other people around me with the same or similar models had the exact same problem and there are many posts online about Dell’s weird camera choice. It sours the experience quite a bit, IMO.Tuxedo Computers has been a painless experience for me. Even got a relative one and after updating, everything works without issues and has been for a while now. Haven’t heard any complaints.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Always interesting to hear how things are (not) working for others. The only negative side of Linux - which is at the same time a good thing in other aspects - is the behavior difference across distros. Arch is working smoothly on the XPS 13 and the Razer Book 13 which is a very similar machine.
I have no doubt Tuxedo is great. My friend was just not lucky with his laptop. Like any brands there’re various positive and negative stories about their machines. Just here we have different experiences with Dell and Tuxedo. That’s just frustrating when you’re trying to collect info to help you decide on a buy. Ending up with issues while you did your best to prevent them is really a killer to the excitement you should have with your new laptop.
Ending up with issues while you did your best to prevent them is really a killer to the excitement you should have with your new laptop.
Yeah, that’s true. I do think it’ll take a while before there’s a truly good linux laptop brand that people will recognize and that’ll show up in general ads. The brands closest to that atm are slimbook, purism, and tuxedocomputers, I think. But time will tell.
The Lenovo Slim series of the past couple years are absolutely broken for any kind of non-Windows operation. Stay away.
Yep glad I’m able to return it!
But how? Are they ARM?
I think the XPS 13 is a nice device.
For reference: I think your mistake was buying a Lenovo laptop without the word “ThinkPad” in the name. There are Lenovo Thinkpad something devices. They are (usually) more likely to support Linux. And there are Lenovo comsumer devices and they’re a mixed bag.
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This is what I came here to say. Specifically the T, P, & W series ThinkPads. I’ve never had issues with Ubuntu or Fedora on any of those. Unfortunately, Lenovo’s been “diluting” the brand with things like the ThinkPad Yoga line.
Agree to disagree. My laptop is in fact a ThinkPad Yoga 460. And I’m quite happy with it! What’s the issue with that line? I mean there are also Yogas without the ThinkPad, which makes it confusing. But I just skip past the showcased laptops that don’t have the nipple mouse. And I’ve talked to my dealer a few years after I bought that device and he told me lots of other customers had hardware issues. So I think there are some quality issues, but that is a known problem also for other ThinkPads since after the IBM times.
Not saying there’s a problem with them, just like you said: it’s confusing the product lines. ThinkPad is/was a business laptop that’s expected to be durable and pretty widely compatible. Hence its long history of Linux compatibility. I haven’t messed with any of the Yogas, ThinkPad or otherwise, but I’ve played with quite a few of the series I mentioned. I was just qualifying my statement that I’ve not seen Linux compatibility issues with T, P, & W series.
Ok, I get it. That is my opinion, too. I have some friends who use Linux and in the good old times we had lots of Thinkpad T, L and X2x0 on the desk. I think this is only my second one. I usually use them until they completely break down. Currently I’m waiting for the Yoga to die. The Battery is long gone, the display started to flicker for like 2 months and then it resumed working correctly, I can’t upgrade that damn 8GB of DDR3L RAM without spending $200 and it’s comparatively slow. But it still runs after 7 years. I think I’m getting the a Framework laptop next, the one with the Ryzen processor seems quite nice. Or a refurbished newer Thinkpad or Dell.
I used to love Thinkpad laptops up until Lenovo bought the line - build quality dropped off a cliff after that. I’ve avoided them since then so I can’t comment on their current build qualities except to say they used to be built stronger than those toughbooks with handles.
I’ve had good ones and meh ones. In terms of build quality, the X1 Carbon gen3 I got ages ago was outstanding in most respects (including how easy it is to get the back off), but the memory is unfortunately soldered and the CPU is decidedly mid-field, and it was a refurb so I couldn’t really up-spec it. The T14 gen2 (AMD) I got a couple years ago and use as a personal dev machine these days has WAY better hardware (Ryzen7 5850U; 16g soldered + 16g SODIMM), but the build quality is not as nice and the back is WAY more of a pain to get off (fucking plastic clip sections).
I’ve had no real issues with either in terms of Linux compatibility; I’ve installed various distros on both of them, but generally have settled on to Ubuntu or Fedora for long periods. The old X1 is back to windows now though, simply because I am repairing and modifying a car with an OBD-II port, and it’s way simpler to use pretty much any automotive diagnostic software from a windows platform, and I wasn’t using it for anything else.
Edit: also my old IBM T60p from college - iirc one of the last ones they made before Lenovo bought them. Bloody thing just refuses to die lol
I had a X61, I think that was shortly after Lenovo started building them and still very much like the models before. But that was a long long time ago.
Would have sworn yesterday you made a lengthy post saying you switched back to windows? What the hell happened in 14 hours?
Sometimes when people are given suggestions for things to try they actually take them into consideration. I know this is highly usual these days as people only want to constantly argue online, but I legitimately take advice to try new things.
Some people in that thread gave me ideas to have less headaches with Linux, so I’m going to try them out.
This is a great personal quality you’re wielding. Welcome aboard to Linux land!
The comments in the other thread convinced OP to try a Dell.
Probably read more about Windows.
I have great experience with my framework AMD, excellent Linux hardware support and excellent support team. I have never encountered less problem on any system I own, including dell and hp.
Linux specific manufactures like system 76, tuxedo, slimbook, starlab, and nova custom are also great options, but I cannot endorse them since I never used any of them.
With framework, you get:
- assembled in Taiwan, with many components made in Taiwan
- more “cutting-edge” hardware (might require some minor tweaking, like running couple commands; but they have extremely detailed documentations on these tweaks).
- better upgradablity (upgrade CPU, main board and battery)
- 3:2 display with reasonable DPI (but need fractional scaling)
With other linux manufacture, you have
- (some) coreboot, system76 even has intel ME disabled.
- standard screen resolution (1080P is bit grainy for me but you dont need fractional scaling)
- preconfigured and preinstalled linux distro; 100% works out of the box, no tweaking or command.
BTW, I think most of these laptops have great windows support as well (but check before you buy), so you are not locked into linux.
Another vote for the framework. They are the only manufacturer actively supporting Windows and Linux.
I think tuxedo (do not offer to pre-install Windows), nova custom, slim book, starlab also officially supports Windows 11. But framework definitely have much more detailed documentation on configuring Windows.
In general, if they are using common consumer hardware that supports linux, then it is almost guaranteed to have pretty good windows support as well.
On kbin the thumbnail for this post is a nude woman sucking a lollipop. WTF
Do you have a link to that?
You know… just so I know what it is and don’t click on it by accident.
Look at the link through kbin and you’ll see it
https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/727861/I-m-returning-my-Lenovo-laptop-that-gave-me-tons-of
That is hilarious.
Lmao what the heck it’s true! 🤣
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and it directs me to best buy for some reason?
I really wish they’d fix this issue already. I’ve never seen it persistent on any other website before.
You know “they” is one dude, right?
This is well known and Ernest is working on a passel of fixes, and is really spread thin. I’d suggest tagging him for any bug (new or not) vs reporting an issue via bugtracker is counterproductive, and probably just adding to his stress.
There are other contributors (szsz has submitted a PR this week, for example), but its all reviewed by ernest AFAIK.
I prefer to think of it as a feature and would prefer if it didn’t get fixed.
Federverse is different from kbin’s inception is different from reddit or its inception.
I like Kbin, and it’s all because of Ernest’s efforts.
Not sure if anyone else pointed it out to you, but op posted a thing, then edited the post to capitalize on an exploit.
Software is actually pretty intensely hard to create.
Ernest has done his best at creating a federverse instance for all us Kbin users, but also, none of us were here 3 years ago.
I also don’t see Ernest becomming a Spez In 7 years, so I applaud the effort and the platform, and if we get more robust nsfw thumbnail handling, cool, but I also love the ability to edit my posts to fix my typos and whatnot, trolls thumbnails titties and all sometimes.
This is the only way I have seen porn on kbin, even after going out of my way to subscribe to the NSFW magazines in kbin. No porn has even shown up in my feed.
It’s a bit like the 80s or 90s when we had to rely on the porn we could scavenge. Kids today do not know the significance of a Sears catalog.
I remember the days of deciphering the scrambled tv channels on cable during the late hours perusing the late night adult programming as it scrolled in its warped and distorted menagerie of shapes and colors, feeling exited to spot an errant boob or something.
But it was enough! Kids these days have access to gigs of HD video… not sure if that’s a good thing.
Sometimes I see the rare post when I sort by Newest but it almost feels like kbin is giving 18+ submissions a low priority or something. Meanwhile when I check through my Beehaw account I see a lot of it, relatively speaking. Definitely far more than on kbin.
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Brand does not matter. You will likely get in trouble with any new laptop model. Install the latest kernel, and probably most of them will be gone. But some can be fixed only after a year or so.
My Dell with preinstalled Ubuntu had a fingerprint scanner not working, wifi chip losing connection and disabled “subwoofer” (lol). After a year or two of upgrading a distro everything works (well, I mapped subwoofer output in config and idk if this still needed or not).
ThinkPad. Dell is not exactly comparable and is garbage, unless you get the developer edition.
Dell laptops have mostly just worked on Linux quite well, but you may run into issues with the camera, however this hack(?) has worked for me: https://github.com/stefanpartheym/archlinux-ipu6-webcam.
I believe Dell has a catch for the camera saying that it may use more CPU when in use. Whilst the laptop is Ubuntu Certified, the camera only works if you select the Ubuntu option instead of Windows, and use the install they give you.
Some other nice things to have:
- fwupd should also work for firmware updates, hopefully. My speakers sounded worse on Linux than Windows, some tinkering with hdataskretask helped a little, however it’s still worse.
- This should let you change some bios settings, like changing charge limits and thermal profile (cool, performance, balanced etc): https://github.com/dell/libsmbios
- This GNOME shell extension allows you to change charge limits easily: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/5724/battery-health-charging/
Thank you for mentioning libsmbios, I had tried to change the power mode but given up , turned out that libsmbios was already installed and working!
Dell > Lenovo most days. Buy the Ubuntu edition to spurn the Windows license, then install whatever.
The Lenovo business models (ThinkPad series) are amazing value. My 11 year old laptop is still going strong.
Just stay far away from any Lenovo non-business models.
I’ve been wondering what the best non-Mac laptop is. Like something that’s premium feeling without being the same price as a Mac.
I have a Lenovo laptop-14 that I really like, but it’s a bit thick and the screen is a bit dim at times. The speakers are also very quiet.
Is an xps what I should be looking at?
I can say that my old XPS 13 felt premium, and the speakers blew me away with how good they were.
But XPS models, just like MacBooks, are far from cheap
I just priced one out and you get about double the ram and 2-4x the storage space of the air.
So, while I agree they are expensive, they are nowhere near MacBook pricing. Mac pricing is insane.
Also there are two different body styles and one is like $400 more but the specs I think are the same otherwise.
Get a thinkpad?
If you want to use Linux on your laptop, is there any reason not to go for ‘dedicated’ Linux laptops?
FWIW, I haven’t seen these Linux-first vendors being mentioned under your post yet: NovaCustom and Star Labs.
XPS machine are generally pretty well built machines. But 1300 for a 12th gen machine right after 14th gen has just come out?
I don’t think Dell has 14th gen based XPS 13 yet but I wouldn’t pay MSRP for a machine with a 2 year old CPU. I’m sure you can find it for a lot less elsewhere.
Using slightly older architecture has better support for Linux. Compatibility is the most important thing to me here and this chip is Ubuntu certified.
In terms of what matters for compatibility 12th and 13th gen are largely the same, just a better P core. iGPU is identical, chipsets are largely the same etc. 14th gen almost certainly will post a problem, but 13th gen is a nice step up.
Alternatively just pay a lot less for the machine. I’m surprised best buy has the balls to list it for that much without any discounts. With 14th gen rolling out I’d hope prices will tank on those machines, if not new then used they’re getting close to the 3 year mark and their value will plummet.
Get a framework. I have a Dell and upgrading the kernel breaks the trackpad /wifi/bluetooth sometimes. I had to hold the kernel package. Really regret not getting a framework
