I think Americans in general don’t see it as a difficult choice to support Ukraine
Politicians find it difficult because Republicans are pro-russian, and both parties are heavily aligned with Israel. So Ukraines the only one really seeing any push back.
Fuck that, isreal is a terrorist state. Anyone voting for funding isreal is voting against human rights.
Israel should still exist
No it shouldn’t. It should never have existed. Palestine should exist and yank settlers can fuck off home. Jewish people can live in Palestine. Zionists should get the same treatment as Nazis.
Yeah let me know when anyone actually poses an existential threat to Israel and then we can talk. Until then, they deserve zero aid while perpetuating genocide.
Conflating genocide with “defense” is zionist talk.
Honestly surprised that I hear this so much. For context, I am not a Republican, so I’m not defending them, but every Republican I’ve talked to has been anti Russia to the max. They might disagree on the amount of money that we send Ukraine (“Why are we sending billions over there when we can’t even figure out our own country” comes up a lot) but I’ve never heard a single one say anything in the support of Russia. It’s so confusing when I hear people say conservatives are pro-Russia… Different ecosystems I guess
I do believe they were referring quite specifically to the politicians, since on every side it seems politicians are disconnected from their constituents and do things those constituents absolutely wouldn’t (this isn’t some bizarre both-sides argument btw, just general frustration at the state of things)
Ah, that would explain it. I have a bad habit of assuming people mean people, and I like ignoring that politicians exist :p
Republicans aren’t pro-Russia. Some just think war against Iran or China is a higher priority.
The republican party has literally been proven to have received Russian bribes, but go on.
Russiagate is a made up conspiracy theory and US politicians are
bribedlobbied all the time from all sorts of wealthy interest groups.I was about to call you neive but then I thought, maybe your right. What if the politicians arnt pro Russia, they are just pro money.
So they are taking bribes from anyone, be it Russia, isis, pharmaceutical companies or big oil. We just catch them out as Russia are the worst right now
I think that’s worse than them “just” being pro Russia 😔
Of course politicians are pro-money. You don’t get to be a politician in a capitalist country without being pro-money, wealthy, and well connected to others who are wealthy.
Bribery is in most cases legal in the US. It’s called lobbying, or campaign donations, or the revolving door between public service and private industry. It’s also an unsolvable problem given the current economic paradigm. The capitalist class will determine government policy in one way or another, as the government is designed to protect the interests of the capitalist class. The will of the working people is completely irrelevant.
Russian money, insofar as it does exist in US politics (there’s astonishingly little of it compared to other sources) is drawn to attention by a media that is owned by the same companies and people that are bribing in a much larger way. They call attention to the few thousand dollars a Russian immigrant may or may not have donated to the NRA or a Republican candidate to distract from the billions of dollars Wall Street spends on candidates and kickbacks to make sure they’re the ones who control US economic, financial, and foreign policy. It’s easy to call attention to Russian money because the same media has created an environment in which anything Russian is pure evil, so people don’t even question the content of the story being told. This has its roots in Cold War anti-Soviet propaganda, which has been dug up and repackaged to use against a post-2008 “non-aligned” modern Russia.
Russiagate is a made up conspiracy theory
US politicians are bribed lobbied all the time from all sorts of wealthy interest groups.
Fallacious reasoning. Either it is one or the other, not both. Why are you arguing in bad faith?
I never said these two things were related nor mutually exclusive.
I’ll be more explicit.
Russiagate was a work of fantasy telling a story about a supposed Manchurian candidate, rather than admitting that the Democratic campaign made mistakes and that Trump spoke to genuine issues the US population has (of course without solutions but that’s not the point here).
BribesCampaign donations and favours are given to candidates and office holders all the time by interest groups, companies, and wealthy individuals. A donation by JP Morgan or a Koch has nothing to do with the Russiagate fairytale.
Rightwingers don’t get a word in, as their brains clearly can’t process a single thought :)
Fixed
Yes. As part of America, fuck this apartheid we’re funding.
MUCH Better
Who voted that government in?
Sorry, do you think bourgeois democracy is really democracy?
It’s a democracy for the capital owning class.
You say this as if there were ever a choice to have a good government.
first past the post did
So then vote only for people against FPTP
A bunch of people who won’t accept moral accountability for what it does.
I’d revise that to “Republicans”
It was the Democrat president that bypassed congress twice to send munitions to Israel during it’s active genocidal campaign so no, it’s not Republicans.
Also, Republicans want to send weapons and money to Israel and not to Ukraine, while Congressional/Biden admin Democrats want to do both. So with Republicans you get double the genocides.
Politicians, yes, constituents, no.
If you vote for Democrats, you de facto are one.
That’s not the point. I was saying that national Democratic politicians are not properly representing what their voters think on the Israel issue.
I wanted to but changed it to “Americans” on the last minute.
I think the majority of Americans don’t really see a dilemma there.
I think replacing it with “American Politicians” would work, but accuracy, in my Polandb… meme?
It would work. Senator Sanders forced a vote to require the State department to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or immediately withhold aid, and the Senate quickly voted 72-11 against the proposal. That is probably the most bi-partisan vote we’ve seen in decades. But don’t go thinking that the enormous American political machine actually represents the will of the American people. They represent corporate interests, and hardly even try to hide that anymore.
Did anyone call Sanders anti-semitic?
Yes, a number of users on Lemmy have made that claim, and this article shows references of it being done by various media outlets and other political pundits.
Sanders is Jewish… I guess that wouldn’t stop people from throwing baseless accusations around.
Wait till you get a load of this:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/jewish-protest-israel-gaza-washington-dc
David Friedman, the conservative former US ambassador to Israel during Donald Trump’s presidency, went further, tweeting before Monday’s protest: “Any American Jew attending this rally is not a Jew – yes I said it!”
First of all history began in 2022 not 2014, and second of all those children are Untermensch and don’t count.
Actually the history kind of began with 2003 Orange “protest” attempt by CIA, which failed. They found success later in 2013 in Maidan.
America and the Amazing TechniColor Revolution
Lol Technicolor, that was an ancient Kodak thing I saw as a kid on SLR film reel boxes.
Reference for the kids: Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat
That makes sense, I am from India so do not know about these Christian pop culture things.
I should learn not to assume that all English speakers do.
Ever thought about visiting NATO?
I do not want to be Assange’d. NATO countries are shithole dictatorships for critics and dissidents.
You seem to be posting at weird times. Maybe dont stay so late up at night in the far away India.
I do not stay up that late. Left my night owl life behind, and do not live the day like a zombie. I wake up comfortably at 9-10.
In two days, the Ukrainian army’s terror shelling of residential areas in the DPR (Donetsk People’s Republic), some of which was carried out with weapons supplied by the West, has killed four children in the Donbass.
Yes, that’s also terrible.
Anything else to add to your whataboutism?
It’s not whataboutism. I’m not comparing anything. I’m simply pointing out that children are actually not safer by supporting the Kiev regime.
Saveing children by giveing guns to Azov…
Russian propaganda painting Azov as all 45 million people in Ukraine when in reality they represent a percent of a percent.
It’s like saying we should invade the US because some of them are self professed neonazis. Absolutely bonkers unless you wanted to fabricate a reason to invade in the first place
Do this small fringe percent have an official standing in the military?
There are plenty of neonazis on our police force.
Azov has 900-2500 total members and are recognized as local militia only. In no way is supplying Ukraine’s military equivalent to “giving Azov weapons” unless you explicitly want a reason to justify killing Ukrainians.
Want to guess how many police officers we have nation wide here? Or maybe you have another whataboutism for me?
Do you have a Nazi police department? Interesting. Azov has a standing in the official army. The coup the west backed was fought for by your freedom fighters. Go back under your rock Nazi apologet.
Ah yes, the sign of an intellectual: ignore points you don’t agree with and call the other person a nazi.
The numbers are there. You are a Russian apologist content with seeing 45 million people lose their homes because of 2,500 shit bags.
Enjoy siding with the war criminals.
Your the one defending Nazis. And you hold your foul mouth shut when they were ethnic cleansing eastern Ukraine but I guess they don’t get the same defense from you. Thank Russia for saving them from your side.
Jsyk. You don’t kill the cat because it has fleas. Unless you were looking for a reason to kill the cat in the first place.
Caring about the cat doesn’t equate to defending the fleas unless your goal is to get rid of the cat.
I know this doesn’t matter to you, because you’ve already attached your identity to the Russian genocide justification. But someone has to advocate for the other 44.995 million of them. It’s clear you’d rather them dead.
Anyway, enjoy being blocked. I have no more time to give to a genocide sympathizer.
No, I didn’t. But you don’t want to hear that because the only way your bloody justification works is if everyone is a nazi sympathizer.
Keep your fingers in your ears. You are insignificant
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I find it funny that Americans (esp. Republicans) who love to «win» at all things, would be fine to allow Russia to win against the west in Ukraine. I think if they decide to stay on their isolationist path, Lavrov’s propaganda from earlier in the week will come true, and the US will seize to be a superpower. «Greatest country in the world»? Starting to look pretty weak to me.
The US is speed running the Empire game. They blitzed through the early game, beat a super power, became the dominant military force in the world, dominated in culture, and are now seeing how fast they can decline before the entire country implodes on itself.
Capitalism made the system more efficient!
Well the leader of one side campaigned in 2016 on the promise of carpet bombing the Middle East and they side with Russia
These two conflicts have a lot of points of views. In russia ukraine its a bit easier because russia attacked ukriane so its pretty clear that russia is the “evil”. But with israel and gaza a lot of people confuse palestinians with hamas and israeli people with the israeli government. Ad for why ukraine supports israel when they are much closer to gaza i think its because they really need the us and eu to help so they didnt even have an option.
I think it’s more that people confuse the Israeli government with “the Jewish people”, when the truth is that they are very separate. The Israeli people are somewhere in the middle. There seems to be a bunch of them who are quite supportive of their government’s actions.
Yeah true. A lot of people overlook things like jewish voice for peace and people like Bernie Sanders.
Or we fix some shit at home first.
There is always shit to solve, but right now, if ukraine’s shit isn’t solved soon enough, we all will have a lot of piled up shit to solve.
Here’s an idea go sign up as a volunteer in Ukraine and fight yourself instead of cheering on for other people to die for you, you disgusting sack of shit.
That never happens. Plus we don’t have anyone bombing our kids.
True, but many of them are being shot in our own schools.
And I heard they are being put to work too.
Weaker Russia means lower need for future military spending, and it is cheaper to give old weapons to Ukraine than to dispose of them locally.
Russian economy is growing while the west is going into a recession. Russian factory activity grows at fastest pace in over six years, meanwhile while US manufacturing activity shrinks the most in three years.. UK now can’t even make steel from raw materials.
Yes, people still bleat about a weaker Russia. 🤡
Pretending the rest of the world doesn’t exist has not historically been a good strategy for any country.
Drag the war long enough and those children will grow up to be next in line as cannon fodder and the issue will solve itself.
Not a tough choice, send aid to Israel, stop jihadists from spreading their terror through the West.
Love to save ukrainian children by dragging the war on, making it deadlier and deadlier.
As Obama said, “Russia will always have escalatory dominance in the region”
A war with better armed Ukraine would be shorter.
We could make Russian dominance in the region history, just like the myth of their military competence is history.
A war with better armed Ukraine would be shorter.
We could make Russian dominance in the region history, just like the myth of their military competence is history.
The “west” is running out of stockpiled munitions at this point.
As Obama said, Russia will always have escalatory dominance in Ukraine. The Biden administration is just dragging out a loss.
After two years, it’s pretty clear that the west is not capable of doing anything of the sort. All the west managed to achieve was to ensure that hundreds of thousands of people died, and that Ukraine lost large parts of its territory in the process. We now have admissions from Ukrainian negotiators that a peace deal was close to being reached last March before the west sabotaged it.
That would have been a peace deal that would have meant further hostilities down the line a few years later.
The main problem with the west is that they believe they can make a deal with Russia that they are going to honor. The truth is that Russia honors the deals when it suits them and breaks them the moment it’s useful. Any negotiation is and will always be seen as weakness from the Russian side.
As their propagandist said “We are Russian. We want the world. All of it if possible.”
This is just far right bullshit. They made a peace deal and Nazi Ukraine immediate reneged on it as soon as Russia left Kiev. The ignorance here is astounding.
The actual truth is that it’s NATO that’s been constantly expanding towards Russia. It’s also NATO that’s been invading and destroying countries since the end of USSR. Syria, Libya, and Yugoslavia being some prominent examples.
Meanwhile, Russia tried to resolve this situation diplomatically since 2008 with Minsk agreements that western leaders now openly admit were a delaying tactic by the west.
Finally, section IX of Ukraine’s 1990 Declaration of State Sovereignty states the following:
The whole legal basis for the existence of state of Ukraine is predicated on Ukraine staying neutral and not joining military blocs. Ukraine broke the very basis of this agreement when it tried to join NATO.
Now, thanks to western “help”, Ukraine will lose far more territory than it would have if the deal was done last year, and it may even cease to exist as a state. I can’t wait for you to explain how this actually helps people of Ukraine.
The actual truth is that it’s NATO that’s been constantly expanding towards Russia. It’s also NATO that’s been invading and destroying countries since the end of USSR. Syria, Libya, and Yugoslavia being some prominent examples.
False equivalence. Former USSR countries that joined NATO, did so to protect themselves from future Russian aggression. Like the one we now see in Ukraine. Intervention in Yugoslavia was to prevent atrocities and Syria and Libya had their own problems and dictatorships, which Russia tried to prop up and the West wanted to end.
Meanwhile, Russia tried to resolve this situation diplomatically since 2008 with Minsk agreements that western leaders now openly admit were a delaying tactic by the west.
Western leaders? Name them.
The whole legal basis for the existence of state of Ukraine is predicated on Ukraine staying neutral and not joining military blocs.
It is in fact the opposite. No neutral country stays that way for long when Russia wants it’s territory.
Ukraine broke the very basis of this agreement when it tried to join NATO.
Because Russia attacked them.
Now, thanks to western “help”, Ukraine will lose far more territory than it would have if the deal was done last year, and it may even cease to exist as a state. I can’t wait for you to explain how this actually helps people of Ukraine.
If the West had not helped, there would be no Ukraine either. We would be condemning them to a decade of guerilla warfare and oppression. Emboldened by his victory, Putin would look further west.
Ukrainians now fight Russia, both sides are getting exhausted and it all depends on what help Ukraine gets. Your magical peace treaty would just mean Russia trying this again in 5 years or less.
You could have used the same arguments to make peace with the Nazis in 1941 and the world would only be worse for it.
False equivalence.
It’s not.
Because Russia attacked them.
No, Ukraine has been engaged in atrocities in Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.
It is in fact the opposite. No neutral country stays that way for long when Russia wants it’s territory.
I see you have problems with reading comprehension.
If the West had not helped, there would be no Ukraine either. We would be condemning them to a decade of guerilla warfare and oppression. Emboldened by his victory, Putin would look further west.
If the west didn’t run a coup to overthrow a democratically elected government then there would’ve been no troubles in Ukraine. Period.
Ukrainians now fight Russia, both sides are getting exhausted and it all depends on what help Ukraine gets. Your magical peace treaty would just mean Russia trying this again in 5 years or less.
That’s complete and utter nonsense, and even western media now admits this.
You could have used the same arguments to make peace with the Nazis in 1941 and the world would only be worse for it.
Now that’s what actual false equivalence looks like.
No, Ukraine has been engaged in atrocities in Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.
Russian propaganda talking point.
If the west didn’t run a coup to overthrow a democratically elected government then there would’ve been no troubles in Ukraine. Period.
Euromaidan was not a coup.
That’s complete and utter nonsense, and even western media now admits this.
Cite sources for the first point and military strategy analysts for the second.
NATO is a defense agreement. I know I’m on a Russian-apologist instance, but you guys are huffing Russian glue every time you parrot the propaganda of NATO being a threat to Russia.
By definition, NATO is only a threat to Russia if Russia threatens to expand, full stop.
NATO is an aggressive alliance that has invaded and destroyed numerous countries. The fact that you keep pretending that it’s a defensive alliance just shows how utterly dishonest you are.
Want to share a source on that? Or are you making shit up?
nations are not forcer to join nato
🤡
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Well, they are forced by Russia. That should kinda do the opposite. Well, whatever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
