It’s not the police that keep us from killing each other, or even laws that do so. Check out law and authority sometime if you’re able. It’s very short and worth a read. We don’t kill each other because we don’t enjoy being killed or killing. We’re social creatures, and don’t want to be shunned. Crimes of passion don’t really change based on laws, but the way we organize society may actually be increasing the number of murders, because some people are desperate enough to kill for food or shelter
I read half of it. It seems to overidealize the pre-law era to a large degree. Before law we had mass slavery, constant raiding of nearby tribes and nothing to prevent anybody from taking everything from a person. There is definitely a case where laws can become draconian and force people to break them but I’d argue that in most countries law prevent more unwanted behavior than cause it.
This especially doesn’t apply in modern times since you just need one person to create a private mercenary group to essentially create a mini kingdom within a loosely organised society. That person will very quickly be able to form a successful dictatorship by raiding, enslaving and demanding tribute from nearby settlements.
Even a laissez faire government with everything legal except violence will essentially make it legal to dump toxic waste on your front lawn everywhere without policing and laws. Toxic waste is currently being dumped with laws just under woefully loose law and I’d argue that we need more laws and regulation to prevent people from doing so.
I feel like anarchist theory quickly forgets that we had anarchy before law and people quickly formed kingdoms around settlements to defend themselves and aggressive kingdoms where more successful than passive ones.
Anarchism is a lot of work negotiating, setting standards and consequences, balancing forces. Constant politics without an overarching state. Any concentration of capability for violence or resource to be shared must be extremely carefully handled.
What you are describing is warlords filling a political vacuum caused by chaos.
Someone has been misrepresenting anarchism to you.
Really, you can replace police and laws with any form of more or less organized sanctions against the perpetrators.
Law and authority is a good read, but it shows exactly that - without centralized power, people do (and, according to Kropotkin, people should) put system of unwritten controls all by themselves. And that keeps us from sliding into the savage world where everyone preys on one another. But if something breaks in this chain, if we accept the violence against one another, we’ll get extinct very rapidly.
What the hell are you talking about. I can assure you that perspective of jail is an excellent deterrent to crime
Or you know you can go ahead and be sodomized and beaten for 5 years if that’s your choice of things. For sure isn’t mine tho. It’s not even jail but the anal prolapse that is the true deterrent.
You people are completely detached from reality in the most stupid of ways. my sincere advice is to get real unless you want to self nominate to the Darwin Award
I’m curious then, and this is not a value judgment. This is a genuine question to understand the perspective. Is the threat of getting abused in jail the only thing keeping you from breaking the law? If you could guarantee no consequences, would you start murdering? Personally, things wouldn’t change for me. Just like I don’t need god as a moral authority, I don’t need law to want to be beneficial to my community.
The consequences keep me from doing things. I mean do I really need to explain the obvious?
I am not going to send anyone funny words on lemmy when I am angry to not get banned.
What user iforglythename wants is to not have bans on lemmy. Let’s see what happens. Let’s see how that will work out
It’s flabbergasting that this even needs explanation. I think you guys may be so out of touch with nature the whole lemmy reality is bizzare and trippy at this point. Someone needs to be sane here
Personally I don’t murder because I don’t want to and I feel like it’s wrong to do so. Sure there are consequences, but I really don’t need them to stop me from going out murdering people. Perhaps there are people who do need these consequences, but it seems a fair statement to say that most don’t.
Yea sure yet even online I see many comments that want to kill the rich or kill the pedophiles, Russians or animal abusers or anyone that person thinks they deserve to die.
In what world you live where it isn’t the majority?
Justice boner isn’t an internet phenomenon. Just look at history and all the burned witches. People aren’t some fairy tale elves. We are animals looking for a reason for public lynching more often than not. People violently release pent up frustrations because of love interest rejection. Rape is commonplace. As is harassment.
Anarchists are such naive children inside that it is moving. Meanwhile people regularly elect facists and racists even in this milquetoast form of democracy let alone ultimate, radical democracy of anarchy. People aren’t fit to decide their own stuff unfortunately. I wish it wasn’t true. I deeply wish so.
Internet is merely a mirror into the soul of humanity. What hides under the beneficial mask of social politeness is seen when there is no reason to pretend.
Lemmy is a cool fragile bubble for certain kind of naive lefty ppl. Lacking some old good sense and that may even be dangerous ignorance of how prevalent in society are some type of folks even if they aren’t immediately recognisable. We carry gas or guns for a reason.
I have been too angry in previous comments. I apologise.
This isn’t exactly an in depth study so I could still be wrong, but it’s much more convincing than just some assurance from a random stranger on the internet.
That is such a shallow glance at statistics that I am not even going to bother discussing it. It’s obvious you have zero grasp on statistical inference.
It’s literally same error that conservatists propagate with bipoc areas crime rate…
It’s not deeply rigorous but it’s correct reasoning in principal.
The scientific and statistical standard interpretation of the null hypothesis is that there’s no relationship between the variables in question. It’s up to the researcher to establish an evidence based argument that the null hypothesis should be rejected in favor of some alternative.
When we “fail to reject” the null hypothesis, we haven’t proved it’s true, we just continue to assume it is until someone proves otherwise.
In this case, the alternate hypothesis is that there’s a correlation between incarceration and crime rates and the null is that no such correlation exists.
It’s not the police that keep us from killing each other, or even laws that do so. Check out law and authority sometime if you’re able. It’s very short and worth a read. We don’t kill each other because we don’t enjoy being killed or killing. We’re social creatures, and don’t want to be shunned. Crimes of passion don’t really change based on laws, but the way we organize society may actually be increasing the number of murders, because some people are desperate enough to kill for food or shelter
I read half of it. It seems to overidealize the pre-law era to a large degree. Before law we had mass slavery, constant raiding of nearby tribes and nothing to prevent anybody from taking everything from a person. There is definitely a case where laws can become draconian and force people to break them but I’d argue that in most countries law prevent more unwanted behavior than cause it.
This especially doesn’t apply in modern times since you just need one person to create a private mercenary group to essentially create a mini kingdom within a loosely organised society. That person will very quickly be able to form a successful dictatorship by raiding, enslaving and demanding tribute from nearby settlements.
Even a laissez faire government with everything legal except violence will essentially make it legal to dump toxic waste on your front lawn everywhere without policing and laws. Toxic waste is currently being dumped with laws just under woefully loose law and I’d argue that we need more laws and regulation to prevent people from doing so.
I feel like anarchist theory quickly forgets that we had anarchy before law and people quickly formed kingdoms around settlements to defend themselves and aggressive kingdoms where more successful than passive ones.
Anarchism just won’t work lol. People will band together, larger groups would survive and whoops! It’s countries all over again
Anarchism is a lot of work negotiating, setting standards and consequences, balancing forces. Constant politics without an overarching state. Any concentration of capability for violence or resource to be shared must be extremely carefully handled.
What you are describing is warlords filling a political vacuum caused by chaos.
Someone has been misrepresenting anarchism to you.
When did we possibly have anarchy before law? Genuinely
Up to first civilizations, and practically also up to, like, XIX-XX centuries in many rural areas.
Really, you can replace police and laws with any form of more or less organized sanctions against the perpetrators.
Law and authority is a good read, but it shows exactly that - without centralized power, people do (and, according to Kropotkin, people should) put system of unwritten controls all by themselves. And that keeps us from sliding into the savage world where everyone preys on one another. But if something breaks in this chain, if we accept the violence against one another, we’ll get extinct very rapidly.
Will always upvote Kropotkin.
What the hell are you talking about. I can assure you that perspective of jail is an excellent deterrent to crime
Or you know you can go ahead and be sodomized and beaten for 5 years if that’s your choice of things. For sure isn’t mine tho. It’s not even jail but the anal prolapse that is the true deterrent.
You people are completely detached from reality in the most stupid of ways. my sincere advice is to get real unless you want to self nominate to the Darwin Award
I’m curious then, and this is not a value judgment. This is a genuine question to understand the perspective. Is the threat of getting abused in jail the only thing keeping you from breaking the law? If you could guarantee no consequences, would you start murdering? Personally, things wouldn’t change for me. Just like I don’t need god as a moral authority, I don’t need law to want to be beneficial to my community.
The consequences keep me from doing things. I mean do I really need to explain the obvious?
I am not going to send anyone funny words on lemmy when I am angry to not get banned.
What user iforglythename wants is to not have bans on lemmy. Let’s see what happens. Let’s see how that will work out
It’s flabbergasting that this even needs explanation. I think you guys may be so out of touch with nature the whole lemmy reality is bizzare and trippy at this point. Someone needs to be sane here
Personally I don’t murder because I don’t want to and I feel like it’s wrong to do so. Sure there are consequences, but I really don’t need them to stop me from going out murdering people. Perhaps there are people who do need these consequences, but it seems a fair statement to say that most don’t.
Yea sure yet even online I see many comments that want to kill the rich or kill the pedophiles, Russians or animal abusers or anyone that person thinks they deserve to die.
In what world you live where it isn’t the majority?
You’re taking the utterings of keyboard warriors as reflective of reality?
Justice boner isn’t an internet phenomenon. Just look at history and all the burned witches. People aren’t some fairy tale elves. We are animals looking for a reason for public lynching more often than not. People violently release pent up frustrations because of love interest rejection. Rape is commonplace. As is harassment.
Anarchists are such naive children inside that it is moving. Meanwhile people regularly elect facists and racists even in this milquetoast form of democracy let alone ultimate, radical democracy of anarchy. People aren’t fit to decide their own stuff unfortunately. I wish it wasn’t true. I deeply wish so.
Internet is merely a mirror into the soul of humanity. What hides under the beneficial mask of social politeness is seen when there is no reason to pretend.
Lemmy is a cool fragile bubble for certain kind of naive lefty ppl. Lacking some old good sense and that may even be dangerous ignorance of how prevalent in society are some type of folks even if they aren’t immediately recognisable. We carry gas or guns for a reason.
I have been too angry in previous comments. I apologise.
According to a quick search, the US has the 6th highest incarnation rate per capita but is only 148th lowest in intentional homicide rate. Obviously this is far from conclusive but it suggests there’s no strong correlation. There are likely much more significant factors than how prison-happy a country is.
This isn’t exactly an in depth study so I could still be wrong, but it’s much more convincing than just some assurance from a random stranger on the internet.
That is such a shallow glance at statistics that I am not even going to bother discussing it. It’s obvious you have zero grasp on statistical inference.
It’s literally same error that conservatists propagate with bipoc areas crime rate…
It’s not deeply rigorous but it’s correct reasoning in principal.
The scientific and statistical standard interpretation of the null hypothesis is that there’s no relationship between the variables in question. It’s up to the researcher to establish an evidence based argument that the null hypothesis should be rejected in favor of some alternative.
When we “fail to reject” the null hypothesis, we haven’t proved it’s true, we just continue to assume it is until someone proves otherwise.
In this case, the alternate hypothesis is that there’s a correlation between incarceration and crime rates and the null is that no such correlation exists.
As of now, the bulk of the research has failed to find such a relationship https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C22&q=correlation+incarceration+crime&btnG=