I could use some honest advice from experienced programmers and engineers.

I’m almost at the two year mark as a developer. On paper I might look like a passable Junior Dev, but if you sat me down and asked me about algorithms or anything else I did to get my job in the first place I would be clueless. I can solve problems and always get my work done, but I don’t even know the language/framework I use daily well enough to explain what’s going on, I can just do things. I don’t think I have imposter syndrome, I think I really might have let any skill I had atrophy.

I used to enjoy programming as a hobby in my spare time, but in two years I’ve opened the IDE on my personal machine no more than twice. People talk about all the side projects they have, but I have none. I feel too stressed out from the job to do any programming outside of work, even though I love it. I feel like I can’t level up from a Junior to Senior because I either don’t have the headspace or the will to do so. It doesn’t help that the job I’ve had has taught me very little and my dev team has been a shitshow from the beginning.

At the moment I have an offer on the table to do a job that isn’t engineering (but still tech) and it surprisingly pays more. Part of me thinks I should take that job, rediscover my passion in my spare time and build my skills, but I fear I might go down this route and never be able to come back to engineering. Not that I’m sure I want to.

It might sound defeatist but I don’t think I’ll ever be a top 5% or even 25% engineer. I could be average with a lot of work, but not great. I could potentially be great in the new field I’m being recruited for, but that’s also hard to say without being in the job.

I know that some people just aren’t cut out for being engineers. Maybe I have the aptitude but not the mentality to do this for 30+ years. I want to know if that’s what it sounds like to people who’ve seen that before. If you were in my position, would you walk away and just be a hobbyist programmer or stick it out and hope to be a mediocre engineer one day?

  • @MajorHavoc
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    21 days ago

    I could use some honest advice from experienced programmers and engineers.

    Old man programmer checking in.

    if you sat me down and asked me about algorithms or anything else I did to get my job in the first place I would be clueless.

    Don’t sweat it. No one knows how the fuck computers work.

    Anyone who thinks they actually know, isnt educated enough to understand about the bits they don’t understand.

    I can solve problems and always get my work done, but I don’t even know the language/framework I use daily well enough to explain what’s going on, I can just do things.

    Nice. You’ve got the important part. Ride that until the end.

    I don’t think I have imposter syndrome, I think I really might have let any skill I had atrophy.

    It’s not impostor syndrome when you’re only 2 years into your career.

    If you feel like you don’t know jack shit compared to what I know, after decades… that’s because you don’t know jack shit compared to what I know. There’s nothing wrong with that. Someday I’ll be pissing myself in a nursing home run by automation you maintain. We all get our turn.

    I’m the meantime, lucky for you, I can’t be arsed to work more than 40 hours in a week, so there’s plenty of work left to do while you learn.

    And I’ll retire soon, and I’l promise I’ll do you a solid and leave decades of my own mistakes and missteps out there for you to earn $$$$ cleaning up after. You’re welcome… I guess.

    I used to enjoy programming as a hobby in my spare time, but in two years I’ve opened the IDE on my personal machine no more than twice.

    This is very normal. Welcome to the big leagues. If you do something you love for your job, eventually it’s still just a job.

    People talk about all the side projects they have, but I have none. I feel too stressed out from the job to do any programming outside of work, even though I love it.

    This is very normal for your current stage of your career.

    If you stick with it, it gets better when you get to someday become a self-important slob like me who only works on really interesting problems.

    And how do I only work on really interesting problems? I make my boss hire a few junior developers and I delegate all the boring stuff to them.

    It’s a pretty sweet deal for at least one of us. (Who for, varies by the day, really.)

    I feel like I can’t level up from a Junior to Senior because I either don’t have the headspace or the will to do so.

    I guarantee that you’ve learned way more than you think. If you stick with it, you’ll have a random moment sometime soon when someone else just can’t wrap their head around a concept you take for granted.

    It doesn’t help that the job I’ve had has taught me very little and my dev team has been a shitshow from the beginning.

    That sucks, sorry. There are more shitty developer teams than good ones. If you stick with it, and do some strategic job hopping, you can find the good ones.

    This is a tough time to switch jobs in tech, I wouldn’t blame you for not wanting to mess with it.

    At the moment I have an offer on the table to do a job that isn’t engineering (but still tech) and it surprisingly pays more.

    Hell yes! Fuck your current employer for underpaying you!

    And you already admitted your current team is shit.

    Go take that money!

    but I fear I might go down this route and never be able to come back to engineering. Not that I’m sure I want to.

    Your developer skills won’t vanish. Trust your future self.

    If someone asks why you spent time as a non-developer “those assholes weren’t paying a fair wage” is a fine answer.

    It might sound defeatist but I don’t think I’ll ever be a top 5% or even 25% engineer.

    As a top 5% engineer (with a trophy for humility), it’s not all they promised.

    It turns out there’s still plenty I don’t know, and I spend much more of my time confused and frustrated than I did before. The cool part is that I’m now confused and frustrated by really interesting problems.

    I could be average with a lot of work, but not great.

    I pay top dollar for average programmers. I’m not hiring right now, but let’s stay in touch.

    There’s a lot of coders out there without the self awareness to realize what they don’t know. Those programmers never get any better, and never reach average.

    (Contrasted with myself, who, as I said, have several awards for excessive humility in spite of my undeniable genius. /s)

    I could potentially be great in the new field I’m being recruited for, but that’s also hard to say without being in the job.

    Go find out!

    Beware though, when they find out you can code, they will find a way to add that to your job duties.

    I know that some people just aren’t cut out for being engineers.

    True. Some people’s ego or laziness blinds them to what they need to learn.

    I have a huge ego, and I am deeply lazy, but I occasionally put both in check for just long enough to learn.

    Maybe I have the aptitude but not the mentality to do this for 30+ years.

    Take it a year at a time. Once in awhile, take out some cash and spread it on the ground and sort of roll in it.

    Hopefully you’ve noticed, but while this job is usually a pain in the ass, it also pays really fucking well.

    I want to know if that’s what it sounds like to people who’ve seen that before.

    I’ve had this conversation with all of my very top people, if that’s any consolation.

    If you were in my position, would you walk away and just be a hobbyist programmer or stick it out and hope to be a mediocre engineer one day?

    If you told my younger self how much money I could make as a mediocre engineer, I would be all over that deal.

    I would’ve agonized about the trade-off if I knew I would stop loving my hobby, but taken comfort that I would later love it again.

    Everything happens in seasons. Some seasons I code for fun. Some I don’t.

    A cool side effect of being paid to code is that when I do find the mind space to hobby code, I am a fucking badass hobby coder.

    I think you should take this job because your current employer is running a shitty team, and underpaying you. Then take another programming job later when the next opportunity arrives (and it will…it really will.)

    • @[email protected]
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      124 months ago

      It turns out there’s still plenty I don’t know, and I spend much more of my time confused and frustrated than I did before. The cool part is that I’m now confused and frustrated by really interesting problems.

      This is spot on. Your whole response ist just a trove of insight, I wouldn’t have been able to articulate so eloquently.

    • Gristle
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      94 months ago

      Not to hijack from the OP, but would you change your reply if someone was feeling similarly but wasn’t yet in their first role yet? I’m coming out of 2 years of private mentorship and have spent the last almost 3 months applying with barely a whisper of a reply from a fraction of these jobs so I’m a bit down on myself. I felt confident a month ago but now I’m slinking back applying to jobs in my old industry.

      • @[email protected]
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        234 months ago

        it’s a bad time to be looking for work in tech.

        Be patient, keep your head up. Keep applying. You’ll get something soon.

        Sorry you’re seeking in a down market. It happens every now and again in this industry. You’ll get through the eventually.

        • @MajorHavoc
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          24 months ago

          Couldn’t have said it any better.

      • a1studmuffin 🇦🇺
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        94 months ago

        Once you’re in the industry and see the typical shitshow that goes on in most companies and teams, you won’t think twice about not hearing anything for 3 months. There’s a million reasons why you won’t get a job or not hear back for a really long time that have nothing to do with you. Stick with it, times are tough right now but your luck will eventually change.

      • @MajorHavoc
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        34 months ago

        ODelay42 said it all.

        I saw a 20 year veteran programmer have a 3 month job search last year. I haven’t seen that since Y2K. Both in Y2K and the 2008 recessions, it was tough to break into the industry.

        It sucks, but it will pass. Hang in there.

    • FreshLight
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      34 months ago

      Are you guys both my colleagues? This feels so unbelievably relatable. Seems like a universal issue with junior devs. OP, hang in there if you want to, or don’t if you don’t want to. Your journey seems normal to me :)