I some times think about it and how shitty people are
Remember that
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Unless your a professional communicator, talking to media is always dangerous. They can totally change what you say using “editing”, and loaded question can quickly trap you. There is a reason why there is so many job in communication and media assistant, you don’t want to let people talk unsupervised
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Honestly, if only a sub reddit keeps a political movement alive, it isn’t a political movement
To expand on the point about editing for anyone who assumes that is only means taking things out of context, editing can also be rearranging the order of communication to change the meaning as well as introducing context prior to the interaction that changes the meaning.
Fox News is known for doing all of that.
The ol Frankenbite/frankenedit
Unless you’re* a professional communicator, talking to media is always dangerous. They can totally change what you say using “editing”, and loaded question can quickly trap you.
This is probably the real reason why politicians never actually say “yes” or “no”! Haha
"After that, I made it a rule, I only do e-mail responses to print interviews; because these people love to put a twist in your words, to infer that you said somethin fuckin absurd–" – Mike Shinoda, “Get Me Gone”
Wtf is a “professional communicator”? How do you think you get there?
They just needed someone who wasn’t really weird, and had a proper job. Look at Mick Lynch’s interviews in the UK for example - he did great work for the union.
Lynch is a professional communicator, surely? His job is literally to represent the interests of the members of the union. And he’s very good at it.
It’s not a job description, it’s a skillset. Any public face would want it.
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I feel like I was watching a very different situation than the rest of you were.
First off, the antiwork subreddit didn’t actually accomplish anything. It was mostly people complaining about bad/illegal practices at their jobs, and literally nothing changing.
Second, things didn’t die after that mod appearance. It drew attention to many users that the mods had a different goal than they did, but that didn’t change the atmosphere of the posts for very long. The work_reform sub did become more popular, and antiwork still kept getting just as many people complaining about bad practices.
And neither sub got people organized, neither sub changed attitudes, and neither sub made a difference.
I disagree but it didn’t accomplish anything. It made people aware that they are not alone in their situation and thinking. It created community. This also helped fuel the great resignation and encouraged people to do better for themselves. To not keep running on the wheel for a broken and abusive system. That’s far from nothing.
Even if it never accomplished nothing before the Fox News interview, isn’t it interesting Fox felt the need to confront it?
Fox just used it to back their generational culture war theme for another segment
I’ve watched Fox once in the past year and that’s exactly how they arranged their segments, connecting two loosely related things to push a singular agenda…
… Never saw the AntiWork thing, I just know how it went down.
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Antiwork accomplished nothing of consequence aside from embarassing itself.
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That mod didn’t represent a huge chunk of the community that was in that sub which is why people broke off to form another sub that did.
The sad thing is that all FOX really had to do is let this mod speak on what their beliefs were. No dishonest editing to make them look bad was needed. They did that all on their own.
The Reddit antiwork community had quite a few ridiculous folks hanging out within it.
Not that getting to a post-scarcity society where people aren’t forced to work wasn’t a nice horizon-goal to have, but there are a million steps from where we are in the modern world to there, and a lot of those people wanted it done by next Tuesday. And then when you’d point out that was literally impossible, they’d stick their fingers in their ears and make noises. Needless to say, I didn’t try to stick around for long.
people wanted it done by next Tuesday.
me in my 20s
And then when you’d point out that was literally impossible
me in my 30s
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The mod broke the first rule of talking to Fox News: never talk to Fox News.
I was amazed at how few people thought she was a plant.
It’s not that hard to get someone in a mod position. Then they just have to be a whackjob on air. Mission accomplished.
Vaguely similar to the Occupy Wall Street protests. Interview several people across the country then cherry pick the ways they disagree with each other to call it a disunified movement. All you really need is one discordant voice.
I think it’s because a lot of people though: “hmm, yea, that checks out for a reddit mod”
In regards to OWS, they just had to find the most wacked out, stoned nut jobs that saw the sit-in as a party and ask them a couple pointed questions. Then they blast it all over the evening news as a bunch of lazy hippies, no crazy editing needed. I remember seeing the newscast live and compared it to what was going on online, and yeah that was a masterful way to shut it down unfortunately, because the next day all anyone could talk about was the lazy, entitled kids demanding free this or that from wall street. From there the movement was dead in the water.
So… what’s the second rule of talking to Fox News?
Don’t forget rule 1
That mod was definitely not a great public representative. Why go on Fox at all? Pretty obvious they’d try to make you look bad.
Knowing reddit, I assume the thinking was something along the lines of “I can regularly win a reddit argument, therefore my towering intellect will surely win the day on TV and I will become a hero.” Which of course doesn’t hold up at all against someone with professional-grade social/communication skills no matter how right-on your point is.
While that’s true, it’s clear from the segment the mod didn’t put any thought into their appearance, or prepare for the interview in any way.
The sad thing is that FOX didnt have to do anything to make this mod, and the community they represented, look bad. They did that all on their own because fundamentally something was very wrong with that sub. It wasnt just people legitimately pissed off at employers, there were people in that community that were very much like that mod and the former didn’t want to be associated with the latter.
It’s fairly easy to infer that Fox would not give a sympathetic or neutral interview to someone with views that the hosts fundamentally disagree with. The mod was unprepared, had poor lighting - which surely Fox could have asked them to fix before the show - started rocking back and forth, but they also have a lot of subtle ways of manipulating the audience. If you watch their other shows, the hosts use facial expressions and negative tones of voice to express what they want viewers to feel about the topic - look like they’re having an orgasm when they mention Trump, scowl and use a derisive tone for Democratic politicians. Some of that was going on with Waters’ smug smirk, but I think he detected quickly that the mod was an easy target and he didn’t have to do much for the intended effect. For some reason the interview drifted to the interviewee’s personal life vs. antiwork, too, and that’s intentional imo.
I was really active in that sub at the time. Fox or CNN or something contacted the moderators about an interview. The mods discussed it and decided to decline. IIRC, they later made a post about not accepting interviews until they felt they were more ready to present clear goals, and maybe pull someone from the community to be a “official” spokesperson.
Then a mod went rogue and did the now infamous Fox interview. That was bad, but recoverable. It was further shenanigans by the moderators in the immediate aftermath that caused the schism into work_reform. Before my exodus from reddit, I followed that community closely, but never got as involved. At the time, I remember thinking that the mods felt more reasonable than in antiwork, but that quickly changed too. Eventually they effectively became mirror subs.
Then RIF got shut down and someone told me about this lemmy federation where I could post about all the gay space communism and fringe technology I wanted. I think that I am happier now overall.
Ah I remember that. The mod was deranged
I remember that! I also remember it passing pretty quickly, don’t think it was effective. And I disagree with all of the nay sayers on the usefulness of those subs. Since that time I’ve noticed a lot more people willing to speak about work as a simple contractual arrangement. Not too long ago you would be called lazy and lacking in team spirit etc. for holding boundaries at work. I’ve had more co-workers express the ‘work to live not live to work’ mentality.
Maybe you guys didn’t grow up around as many people who put their entire human energy into their jobs as I did, but in some places there has been a clear shift in how people are thinking about work. Boomers used to let ther vacation expire guys. I am not seeing that in the workplace anymore. Don’t forget the ‘lying flat’ movement that was/is concurrent and frequently discussed in those subs as well. I truly think the antiwork sub helped spark a conversation in the public zeitgeist and helped spur a shift in thought.
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Talking to the media can be incredibly helpful for a movement. It can turn a movement into a near revolution—if the person is competent, well-spoken, and tactfully spreads a great message.
The problem with that interview was the person was not media ready. They needed to be coached. For a long time. They needed to be more charismatic. They needed to know what to say and what not to say.
They didn’t do any of that. In fact, they failed every single part. It’s a high risk/high reward gamble. But you have to be ready for a hostile interviewer, trick questions, traps in your own wording, tone, image, everything. It could completely destroy an idea, much like it did with antiwork. But it could also turn something small into something huge.
Its not like they weren’t warned or anything. The mods told the community that they got approached for an interview in a pinned post. Declaring they won’t be doing it unless they had someone really really good at speaking.
In comes one of the oldest mods, who genuinely is completely anti all forms of work, from when the sub was actually against the very concept of working, claiming to have media training (they had been interviewed before, through email). And they launch themselves to the occasion and the rest is history.
Very sad situation. Thanks for elaborating. I didnt know any of this.
I remember what she said was embarrassing. The discussion afterwards made me realize how many in that sub really were ‘antiwork’ in a literal sense, not just about labor protections and maintaining work-life balances.
Every movement is going to contain a whole spectrum of voices. Never having to work is pie in the sky but I’ll tell you who I’m siding with in the “there should be slaves” and the “people should not have to work at all” argument.
Never having to work is pie in the sky but I’ll tell you who I’m siding with in the “there should be slaves” and the “people should have to work at all” argument.
I’m only ‘siding’ with people that can recognize that’s a very silly false dichotomy.
Not a dichotomy. Spectrum. W/e, you don’t get it.
… Are YOU the mod from Fox news?
Yes, there’s a rational spectrum of labor protections and social safety nets between the silly extremes you used for your false dichotomy. You’ve almost got it.
The idea of antiwork isn’t bad though. We should use anything and everything we can to utilize automation to allow people to live with as little work as possible. Is that a reality today, no. Can it be a reality in the future, maybe. Things will need maintenance and upkeep, people will want to innovate and try to build new things, etc. But that doesn’t mean we can’t work on things like UBI, free housing, free medicine, free education, etc.
The idea of heading that direction is (what I understood) the main goal. We’re just going to need to take steps to get there and changing the terrible labor practices we currently have became step 1 and thus a majority of the focus in the subreddit.
I remember when anti-work meant anti-work. As in, fewer jobs, more free time, against the notion of labor as an entire thing. Our entire species retiring.
Honestly, I’m glad work reform is a separate thing now, because I don’t want to reform work. I want to eliminate it.
Unfortunately much of the world feels entitled to the labor of others and refuses to acknowledge the mental gymnastics we accept as a society.
One has to look no further than the way we treat food service employees. People demand to be served. They feel they are entitled to their basic human needs being serviced while blaming those servicing them for being under valued.
It’s sick and twisted; our society is mentally ill.
I remember when anti-work meant anti-work. As in, fewer jobs, more free time, against the notion of labor as an entire thing. Our entire species retiring.
Unfortunately most people only remember back to the explosion in subscribers that preceded the Fox “interview” by 6-9 months. During which time there was a marked uptick in bad faith arguments pushing what eventually backboned the work reform sub. The (likely paid) Fox appearance was just the diarrhea drizzle on the shit sundae. And then it was obvious to all that the entire thing was comprised of lazy drooling idiots. Narrative captured, mission complete.
Eliminating work wouldn’t actually be enjoyable.
We just need to reform society so that people aren’t required to be employed to survive.
Humans inherently like to work and be productive. The problem isn’t working, it’s employment under shitty companies.
I’ve had this argument too many times with newcomers to antiwork that I’m not going to do it again with you. But ask yourself this: If people so desperately want to work, why do they dream about winning the lottery so they don’t have to? Why do they save up their entire lives to enjoy their golden years not working?
Stop looking at this from the bottom of a 6,000 year old hole that tells you that you need to justify your existence to your superiors.
I said people want to work. I explicitly said that the problem is employment, which is not the same thing as work, so I don’t know what “my superiors” has to do with this.
Work can look like a lot of different things. Cooking, gardening, producing art, building things, leading people, building or supporting communities. Even training in and playing sports is “work”. (There’s ridiculous amounts of money there in the world of sports, and athletes are compensated for their time, including that spent training, so it’s really not that strange when you think about it)
Humans are built to enjoy feeling productive.
How would you spend your retirement? Many people re-enter the workforce. Many people volunteer their time to various organizations.
Even if your idea of a perfect retirement involves endless consumption of entertainment, I’d argue that a lot of entertainment effectively simulates various kinds of work. Video games are a prime example.
You totally didn’t read the first sentence
Yeah, because you didn’t understand what I said.
Humans are built to enjoy feeling productive.
Sounds like justifications for the Protestant work ethic that had to be socialized into us at torture-point. Stop trying to keep your cogs. “The chattel, they yearn for the menial factory line! They yearn for the cotton gin! They ache for feeling like they produced something!” They could make art, they could spin your culture; but we both know that’s not what you’re talking about.
WorkReform represented how I felt more than AntiWork ever did. That interview just made it really obvious to everyone.
What has reddit accomplished in over a decade? That place has been nothing more than an escalating demoralization psy-op. It’s given the right another central platform to push their ideologies. It’s had the left preoccupied with petty squabbles.
Maybe reddit closer to 15-20 years ago would have been able to use reddit to stage actual coordinated worker demonstrations in cities around America. Over the past decade or so they’ve been keyboard mashing.
Reddit isn’t a “psy-op” but it does intentionally select for the status quo. Once the decision was made to start trying to IPO, radical elements that were anti-capitalist, were purged from all the major sub-reddits. The other radical’s drew traffic and were allowed to stay. Once you get rid of anyone advocating for change, of course stagnation is the end result. That’s the goal.
Well put. Thanks for elaborating.
It’s “accomplished” giving a clear place of congregation to many, many niche communities. It’s (anti-)social media; it’s not intended to accomplish anything big.
To be fair, a lot of the content on that antiwork sub was basically “communism is when we don’t have to work.” The whole thing reeked of propaganda intended to make the left look stupid.
Why is it that everytime someone on the left does something stupid online, it’s automatically propaganda? Why can’t it just be the case that there are a lot of politically and generally uneducated people that are part of the movement, which is consistent with every populist movement for all time? This has to be reckoned with and mitigated if the left ever wants to actually hold power and do something with it.
It’s funny you should ask. I use this language specifically because when I say that leftist communities are filled with cringe populism and bad political science, I get banned from .ml pretty reliably. Calling it out as propaganda seems to play better most of the time.
Lol I guess it wouldn’t bother me much. I’m a SocDem, which makes me fail the purity tests pretty quickly. I just want a movement with a leftist heart and a pragmatic head, so we can actually win rights instead of performing while the Titanic sinks.
It feels like a combination of young people without any experience in politics trying to enact change without the ability to strategize and bad actors intentionally trying to create divisive political actions.
And dont forget the lifelong political philosophers that love spaces like Reddit and the Fediverse where they can debate and argue. It’s not that Communism is inherently bad from any theoretical or philosophical stand-point. And I’ll even agree that at least some part of the failure of pretty much all communist states was caused by external actors working hard to make them fail. But even if we could get everyone aboard on that thinking the step is still absolutely massive to go from any western nation today to full on communism. And this isn’t some new line of thinking either. It’s why SocDem even became a thing way back, which was very unpopular right from the start and opposed by Marx himself (the notion of gradual reform, one policy at a time and of compromising to make at least some progress).
In some ways I admire the 50+ year old die hard commies that have spent so much time and energy into this, that really know that it’ll work. But that can at best get 20 people to attend a meeting because most of us actually live OK lives, we want changes yes, we want progress and not conservative measures yes but full on revolution? Forgo private ownership completely and everyone gets a fair share? We can’t even trust our neighbors to not steal our packages from our porch, nor our representatives to not fuck us over for some low ball lobbyist money and we are to trust them with basically absolute power for however long it will take to set up a new nation, constitution and government post revolution. Just… No.
This is it. But there are actual mature voices over there. I truly believe that dessalines and his kin knows better than to shelter this obvious sectarian and campist influence but just doesn’t have the time to deal with it. Also it’s legitimately a hard problem to pare down either way.
I really wanted .ml to be a more academic oriented leftist community and actually made an effort to contribute such content. It is truly a shame that this kind of content is not only unwelcome, but unallowed.
While I absolutely think the latter exists, I just cannot justify assuming that every dumb opinion I see from someone I am on the same “side” with is some evil spy. Any movement with that sort of view will eat itself alive in no time. Starting to see traitors in your midst is falling into their trap just as much as the conservative who thinks that’s what leftist thought is defined by.
I completely agree.
And dont forget the lifelong political philosophers that love spaces like Reddit and the Fediverse where they can debate and argue. It’s not that Communism is inherently bad from any theoretical or philosophical stand-point. And I’ll even agree that at least some part of the failure of pretty much all communist states was caused by external actors working hard to make them fail. But even if we could get everyone aboard on that thinking the step is still absolutely massive to go from any western nation today to full on communism. And this isn’t some new line of thinking either. It’s why SocDem even became a thing way back, which was very unpopular right from the start and opposed by Marx himself (the notion of gradual reform, one policy at a time and of compromising to make at least some progress).
In some ways I admire the 50+ year old die hard commies that have spent so much time and energy into this, that really know that it’ll work. But that can at best get 20 people to attend a meeting because most of us actually live OK lives, we want changes yes, we want progress and not conservative measures yes but full on revolution? Forgo private ownership completely and everyone gets a fair share? We can’t even trust our neighbors to not steal our packages from our porch, nor our representatives to not fuck us over for some low ball lobbyist money and we are to trust them with basically absolute power for however long it will take to set up a new nation, constitution and government post revolution. Just… No.
And dont forget the lifelong political philosophers that love spaces like Reddit and the Fediverse where they can debate and argue. It’s not that Communism is inherently bad from any theoretical or philosophical stand-point. And I’ll even agree that at least some part of the failure of pretty much all communist states was caused by external actors working hard to make them fail. But even if we could get everyone aboard on that thinking the step is still absolutely massive to go from any western nation today to full on communism. And this isn’t some new line of thinking either. It’s why SocDem even became a thing way back, which was very unpopular right from the start and opposed by Marx himself (the notion of gradual reform, one policy at a time and of compromising to make at least some progress).
In some ways I admire the 50+ year old die hard commies that have spent so much time and energy into this, that really know that it’ll work. But that can at best get 20 people to attend a meeting because most of us actually live OK lives, we want changes yes, we want progress and not conservative measures yes but full on revolution? Forgo private ownership completely and everyone gets a fair share? We can’t even trust our neighbors to not steal our packages from our porch, nor our representatives to not fuck us over for some low ball lobbyist money and we are to trust them with basically absolute power for however long it will take to set up a new nation, constitution and government post revolution. Just… No.
And dont forget the lifelong political philosophers that love spaces like Reddit and the Fediverse where they can debate and argue. It’s not that Communism is inherently bad from any theoretical or philosophical stand-point. And I’ll even agree that at least some part of the failure of pretty much all communist states was caused by external actors working hard to make them fail. But even if we could get everyone aboard on that thinking the step is still absolutely massive to go from any western nation today to full on communism. And this isn’t some new line of thinking either. It’s why SocDem even became a thing way back, which was very unpopular right from the start and opposed by Marx himself (the notion of gradual reform, one policy at a time and of compromising to make at least some progress).
In some ways I admire the 50+ year old die hard commies that have spent so much time and energy into this, that really know that it’ll work. But that can at best get 20 people to attend a meeting because most of us actually live OK lives, we want changes yes, we want progress and not conservative measures yes but full on revolution? Forgo private ownership completely and everyone gets a fair share? We can’t even trust our neighbors to not steal our packages from our porch, nor our representatives to not fuck us over for some low ball lobbyist money and we are to trust them with basically absolute power for however long it will take to set up a new nation, constitution and government post revolution. Just… No.
This whole thread is spitting facts
If you’re gonna chat shit at least cop to what you get banned ‘pretty reliably’ for. I don’t know a single ‘leftist’ who unironically uses the term “degenerate”, fash-ass.
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Yeah the mod didn’t announce they were doing it, there was an active top level post saying the community didn’t want anyone to take the interview.
They went rogue, did it anyway, made the subreddit and themselves look like a fucking dunce and a half. They didn’t even clean their god damn room, there was like dirty laundry and shit in the background.
Asinine. It could’ve been a catalyst moment for a lot of people if someone with some media training had taken the interview, or if we had said nothing.
To be fair, nobody should have to work once Communism is achieved. During socialism sure. Socialism (worker ownership of MoP) incentives automation. Eventually there would be no necessary labor nor resource scarcity. Which is the only way I see communism being fully achieved. FALSC( Fully automated luxury space communism).
Fully Automated Luxury GAY Space Communism!
FML: Fabulous Marxist Leninism.
The idea that there will never been any resource scarcity is a pipe dream
Once we start mining asteroids that will quickly solve scarcity for metals. Food is already solved production wise. Just need to figure out distribution. Which is currently not solved just because it’s not profitable.
I can’t imagine that a sub against working is against working. Maybe they should have picked a better name?
There are always a few people who take things to extremes and make themselves look bad. The person who ended up being interviewed on Fox News made themselves look foolish on their own, the only real issue there was their views being treated as a thing that the majority of the left thinks.
The whole thing reeked of propaganda intended to make the left look stupid
Got some bad news for you…
Agreed. The group make itself look bad. The mod is what everyone was expecting and didn’t disappoint in the interview. I haven’t laughed that hard in years.
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I’m thankful to antiwork for turning me on to David Graeber. He has a huge body of really amazing work and I’ve enjoyed all of it I’ve read so far. He was taken from us far too early.
Yep, im pretty sure after that reddit Admins ousted the remaining mods and installed their own. Thats part of why the workreform sub grew so large.
Definitely not a psyop though, its not like the government has ever done something like that before by lets say dismanteling a radical black socialist group by dividing it against itself into two competing street gangs . . .
Oh wait . . .
Had you read any of the shit before? It’s not like anyone needed to do anything. They just had to wait for it to self-incinerate - which it disgracefully did - and then take over.
Why put in effort if all you need to do is eat popcorn and watch? :D
TBH this is one of the left’s major flaws in general, in my opinion. The right will generally all glom together on an issue even if it’s not 100% what they want, just as long as it’s pushing things in the general direction they want. The left tends to be like herding cats, even if you can get a decent amount of people behind an issue, it’ll inevitably split over some relatively minor disagreement and then the two sides will spend more time fighting each other than moving the general cause forwards.
The big issue with that is the right wants oppression and all the people that vote for them never think they will be under the boot until it happens. Unlike leftist, they know they will be under the boot the moment it’s convent for the liberals to do so. So they fight.
I’d have to be really shitty at pattern recognition to think that the organizations that threaten the power structure the clandestine orgs seek to uphold just always fall apart by themselves while organizations filled with fascists last long enough to become institutions. Theres a reason Fox news was the one to reach out to them in the first place. Theres a reason the mod that went on air didn’t listen to the majority of the sub telling them not to legitimize fox and be the villain they wanted to use as propaganda, and theres a reason Reddit admins cleaned house afterwards.
If anything, you’re arguing that the original mod was in on it. At that point, Reddit admins clearing out the mods wouldn’t need to happen if the head mod was already in on it.
The other mods are the ones who got purged, the mod that went on TV was not part of the mod team by that time. There was a sock account people assumed could be them though. This remaining mods started to share info with the sub on what happened, why the decisions that were made were made as well as sharing that the reddit admins were pressuring them to allow their hand picked people on board. Next thing you know a handful of new mods showed up on the mod team.
You have to be quite paranoid to think something as a few reddit people constantly talking shit at each other is “organizations” and “fell apart”. There was nothing there to fall apart. You’d also have to be quite out of the loop to think fascist people talking shit to each other don’t constantly drift apart or make an ass of themeslves publicly, either.
But yeah sure, whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose. Or you could just stop trying to find patterns and hidden messages in every single wallpaper pattern you look at.
‘Workreform’ was a more accurate name for the majority of people that were on antiwork anyway, since reducing the amount of work and improving conditions while recognizing that some work is still needed is not the same thing as being against work as a concept.
