This is like some boomer saying “All feminists are easily offended lesbians that just like to shout out people”
Then smugly being like “haha you proved my point” when a femininst rightly takes issue with that statement.
Worse than that even, as feminists are less than half the population and an ideology you choose to belong to, rather than a demographic you are born into.
If you generalise half the population and insult them then of course people are going to be mad at you.
As a random man I don’t feel insulted by this at all. I would also rather be in the woods with a random bear than a random man. The bear is more predictable in preferring to have nothing to do with me.
I literally expanded on my reasons in the other reply.
There are literally a bunch of posts from other people explaining their reasons for preferring random bear as well.
The fact that a random man can be told multiple times “I don’t know you well enough to be comfortable with this,” with explanations, and they will still respond with “there’s no way you actually mean the words you are saying” is a big contributing factor.
It’s very possible to communicate to a bear that you aren’t threatening them and that you aren’t prey or worth attacking. I recommend looking up “what to do if you encounter a bear in the woods.”
It seems to be very difficult to communicate to you that I would be uncomfortable encountering you alone in the woods.
Cool. But I really think your reasons are complete bullshit.
Like take your last paragraph, you actually think that because some men don’t listen to reasonable arguments you would rather be with a violent and wild animal that is physically incapable of listening to reason?
Seriously you’re either actually insane or you’re just bullshiting to try and prove a point that you’ve already committed to without actually thinking it through.
you would rather be with a violent and wild animal that is physically incapable of listening to reason?
No, that’s why I’d rather be with the bear.
You seem to be really angry about some rando’s opinion on a hypothetical situation. That’s not normal.
Bears generally aren’t violent unless you threaten them. People survive seeing bears in the woods all the time, and once they are out of that situation they generally don’t have to worry that the bear is stalking them.
I absolutely 1,000,000 guarantee people survive seeing men more often than they survive seeing a bear.
And we’re moving the goalposts. Note how the article, and my post, specified in the woods and you have changed the situation to include: In public. Places with good lighting. Lots of people around. Easy access to law enforcement. People you personally know (and therefore not random).
I absolutely 1,000,000 guarantee people get attacked by men more often than they get attacked by bears.
I didn’t change the situation? You’re literally just making shit up now.
Where did I say in public?where did I say around people you know? Nowhere. because you know your argument is stupid but you don’t have the balls to just admit you’re wrong so instead you literally have to accuse me of making shit you randomly made up just so you have something you can actually argue back against.
Please for the love of God, do us all a favour and go back to reddit, you’ll be in better company there.
i think i would probably be more concerned if i were alone in the woods with a woman honestly, like what the fuck did i do to be put in that situation? Why am i here at all? Is this an act of god?
Being alone in the woods in it of itself would be fucking weird, but a lot less fucking weird that being alone with someone else for some reason.
You’re walking through the woods and at the end of a clearing you see: either a man, or a bear staring right at you.
Which one makes you more uncomfortable?
If I slowly leave the area I’m fairly confident the bear will leave me alone and not follow. I’m spending the rest of my time in the woods wondering if that man is following me.
i would certainly be more perplexed by a human just existing out there, a bear being out there would definitely make a lot of sense, i suppose it matters if either one of them has spotted me.
If neither spots me it doesn’t matter. If one spots me, who’s to fucking say what happens. Could be your local mountain man out there just vibin on his own time, could be your local serial killer up to some shit, who knows!
i would certainly be more perplexed by a human just existing out there
In this scenario you are also “just existing out there.”
Could be your local mountain man out there just vibin on his own time, could be your local serial killer up to some shit, who knows!
And that is the entire point. The article didn’t say “any man” it said “a random man”. Could go either way, who knows? With the bear it’s far more certain it just wants to leave you alone.
In this scenario you are also “just existing out there.”
i mean yeah, but if i was just existing out there alone that would be fucking weird. But only just fucking weird. If i was out there but WITH someone else, i would be REALLY fucking confused.
And that is the entire point. The article didn’t say “any man” it said “a random man”. Could go either way, who knows? With the bear it’s far more certain it just wants to leave you alone.
obviously. I wonder what the statistics would be though. Since it’s a “random” person, i wonder how likely you would actually be to get a shitty person. Bear stats are even harder though. So it’s not even like you could compare it.
people often sight that 1 in 3 woman experience sexual assault (i think that’s the correct phrasing) but that’s a basic collective stat. And given the fact that it’s just a random man. I would have to assume the chances of getting someone who isn’t going to fuck your shit up is pretty good. I’d be surprised if it was less than 50% frankly. Now when it comes to bears, there are a few bears, but assuming black bears, grizzly bears, and brown bears, black bears are pretty chill from what i’ve heard. Grizzly bears tend to be problematic. Brown bears are generally docile, but can be temperamental apparently. So for statistical simplicity we’ll just say you’ve got a 25% chance of getting cocaine bear’d because likewise, the bear doesn’t know why it’s there. I would feel like if you were to select a man at random from society, you’ve probably got equal to marginally better chances. I mean you’d have to get a pretty fucked up individual to just throw them in there and the first thing they decide to do is commit rape, or worse.
And presumably there aren’t any established rules for how you got there, i like to think of it as if you were just teleported there, and i suppose that’s unrealistic, but the alternative is walking into the forest with a fucking bear lmao. Or just being in a forest while a bear is also in the forest, and at that point, i don’t think it would make a difference anymore. Given that you’re likely to be too far away from each other to be an immediate danger. So i’m presuming we’re just dropped within visual/hearing distance of each other.
but naturally, that’s not the point of this thought experiment. The whole point is to make a point, because it’s actually a bit of societal quip more than anything. But i like thinking about this shit like a thought experiment because i prefer to not think about being murdered generally.
Also here’s a fucking nitpick if i’ve ever had one “any” is literally a synonym to “random” Any is quite literally describing “any one of these things that you could possibly select will do the job” and random is quite literally" pick one of them, at random, in a mathematical sense" So from the point of the argument, they mean the same thing.
I havent read the article, but from the heading and the teaser of it it seems to be a personal opinion piece of what she would prefer and asking other women about it.
The part about saying she would prefer being alone in the woods with an animal that would maul and eat her alive than being with [insert trait you were born with].
If you don’t think it’s insulting, switch out the word “men” with gay/jew/trans or any other group of people and ask if those people would feel insulted.
It’s a statement that very likely would be removed by moderators and gotten you banned on certain instances on Lemmy if you did. I honestly don’t believe you’re asking that question in good faith.
I can’t say that I blame her and I’m a guy. Besides, you know she’s just being over the top to make a point. Take five seconds, look at what she’s really saying and stop looking for reasons to be angry at her.
I was merely replying to the other person who seemed to be arguing in bad faith.
I don’t really have much interest the online gender debate. From the few tidbits I’ve seen, it’s not a healthy debate and it doesn’t align with anything I’ve seen in real life in Norway.
It’s too big of a group to generalise. Your seemingly utter lack of understanding will only help drive the wedge between the genders even further.
It’s genuinely sad to see how annoyed and bitter some of my older male relatives have become due to people like you acting as if only 1 gender matter. Back in the days they would have called themselves feminists, but now their perception is that that group hates them instead.
Okay, let’s reframe this to be about a different specific group.
Let’s say this woman wrote this exact same opinion piece, but instead of it being about men in general, it was about black men specifically.
And she is just saying that she would rather take her chances with a wild animal than be alone with a black man. Is that perfectly okay and not insulting/demanding to black men in your eyes?
The issue with your example is that black men are not in a position of power in society
Power by demographic association is bullshit. Cletus in the trailer park does not wield societal power because a majority of members of Congress are the same color and sex as he is, because they don’t work to protect his sex or color - they work to protect their own economic class and that of their donors/owners.
The trick is that you can’t take each demographic axis and declare that there is a hierarchy there where one group is the “oppressor” and thus has power over all members of the other groups who are deemed the “oppressed”. And usually the whole point of doing so is to try to fit it into a model of Marxist class conflict, which is only really a passable model for economic class (and accordingly only works for other demographic axis to the degree that they correlate with economic class). There are lots of areas where reality violates the fuck out of said hierarchies, and it leads to either attempts to excuse it or bullshit around it that I like to liken to the epicycles and deferents once used to shoehorn geocentric models of the solar system back into line with observations.
, while men (as a whole) are the dominant gender in society.
Hell, look at criminal justice - for nearly every measure where the system appears to favor white over blacks and you would probably call it racist, it also appears to favor women over men (usually to a similar or larger degree) but you would likely not call it sexist because that violates the hierarchy by putting women over men.
Education is similar, there are studies suggesting that teachers preferentially grade in favor of girls (specifically showing that girls get better grades for similar work but that difference vanishes in standardized testing where the grader cannot consider the sex of the student). Girls outnumber boys in both entering higher education and getting degrees, and have since something like the early 80s - yet we still maintain preferential scholarships and recruitment opportunities for women as opposed to men - usually by just deciding the only fields worth worrying about are the few that remain male dominated.
I’m in a piss-filled trench! The wealthy have the power! Though I am stronger than the average woman, which I acknowledge is a useful trait. Especially for digging trenches with piss seeping into them. Now that’s wielding social power.
A bear predictably would rather have nothing to do with me. If I treat a random bear with respect it will be more likely to treat me with respect than a random man.
Would you accept this logic about any other group like that?
if someone said “Black people are thieves” then when you called them out they said “I didnt say ALL black people are thieves. If you’re one of the good ones, then its not about you.” would you just accept that as a perfectly reasonable statement or would you still call them racist?
Having something stolen from you most likely isn’t going to leave you scarred for life. And men are not, and have never been, an oppressed group. People who say “black people are thieves” say that because they are racist and want to veil their bigotry. Women who say “I’m scared of men” say that because they most likely have had negative experiences with them and understand that they are physically weaker than them.
Having something stolen from you most likely isn’t going to leave you scarred for life.
Okay change it to mugged or beaten then? You know the point I’m making and purposely focusing on minor details instead of that actual point doesn’t make your case any stronger.
and have never been, an oppressed group
I’m not claiming they are. If you’re going to argue with me, then please argue against what I’m actually saying, nit whatever strawman you need to construct.
Women who say “I’m scared of men” say that because they most likely have had negative experiences with them and understand that they are physically weaker than them.
Imma trust you’re an intelligent person and let you work out what’s wrong with this one yourself.
This is terrible logic to go by.
If you generalise half the population and insult them then of course people are going to be mad at you.
This is like some boomer saying “All feminists are easily offended lesbians that just like to shout out people”
Then smugly being like “haha you proved my point” when a femininst rightly takes issue with that statement.
Also bears can’t type, which introduces a massive bias during data collection.
Nonsense.
Well they did say “smarter than the average”. Technically true, but must have meant something like… ten standard deviations from the mean.
Are you sure? How many bear caves have you been in? They might all have fiber at this point.
I thought we were all dogs using the internet while out humans are at work.
Yall are dogs to right?
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This is also an indicator of the world’s best insult as per the comic Basic Instructions:
“I find you argumentative and easily offended.”
Basically no one is allowed to respond to it.
“Noted.”
“How you find me has nothing to do with the conservation. Anyway, conditioner is better.”
“I’m sorry you feel that way. I hope you get the therapy you need some day”
Can’t a simple answer be: “You’re wrong” ?
Worse than that even, as feminists are less than half the population and an ideology you choose to belong to, rather than a demographic you are born into.
As a random man I don’t feel insulted by this at all. I would also rather be in the woods with a random bear than a random man. The bear is more predictable in preferring to have nothing to do with me.
Theres literally no way you genuinely believe this right?
I literally expanded on my reasons in the other reply.
There are literally a bunch of posts from other people explaining their reasons for preferring random bear as well.
The fact that a random man can be told multiple times “I don’t know you well enough to be comfortable with this,” with explanations, and they will still respond with “there’s no way you actually mean the words you are saying” is a big contributing factor.
What do you think will happen if you tell the bear you arnt comfortable with being attacked
It’s very possible to communicate to a bear that you aren’t threatening them and that you aren’t prey or worth attacking. I recommend looking up “what to do if you encounter a bear in the woods.”
It seems to be very difficult to communicate to you that I would be uncomfortable encountering you alone in the woods.
So yes, the bear is probably a better listener.
Cool. But I really think your reasons are complete bullshit.
Like take your last paragraph, you actually think that because some men don’t listen to reasonable arguments you would rather be with a violent and wild animal that is physically incapable of listening to reason?
Seriously you’re either actually insane or you’re just bullshiting to try and prove a point that you’ve already committed to without actually thinking it through.
No, that’s why I’d rather be with the bear.
You seem to be really angry about some rando’s opinion on a hypothetical situation. That’s not normal.
Bears generally aren’t violent unless you threaten them. People survive seeing bears in the woods all the time, and once they are out of that situation they generally don’t have to worry that the bear is stalking them.
I’m not angry, I’m incredulous that you either think I’m dumb or you’re completely braindead. There’s a difference.
I absolutely 1,000,000 guarantee people survive seeing men more often than they survive seeing a bear.
And we’re moving the goalposts. Note how the article, and my post, specified in the woods and you have changed the situation to include: In public. Places with good lighting. Lots of people around. Easy access to law enforcement. People you personally know (and therefore not random).
I absolutely 1,000,000 guarantee people get attacked by men more often than they get attacked by bears.
I didn’t change the situation? You’re literally just making shit up now.
Where did I say in public?where did I say around people you know? Nowhere. because you know your argument is stupid but you don’t have the balls to just admit you’re wrong so instead you literally have to accuse me of making shit you randomly made up just so you have something you can actually argue back against.
Please for the love of God, do us all a favour and go back to reddit, you’ll be in better company there.
i think i would probably be more concerned if i were alone in the woods with a woman honestly, like what the fuck did i do to be put in that situation? Why am i here at all? Is this an act of god?
Being alone in the woods in it of itself would be fucking weird, but a lot less fucking weird that being alone with someone else for some reason.
You’re walking through the woods and at the end of a clearing you see: either a man, or a bear staring right at you.
Which one makes you more uncomfortable?
If I slowly leave the area I’m fairly confident the bear will leave me alone and not follow. I’m spending the rest of my time in the woods wondering if that man is following me.
i would certainly be more perplexed by a human just existing out there, a bear being out there would definitely make a lot of sense, i suppose it matters if either one of them has spotted me.
If neither spots me it doesn’t matter. If one spots me, who’s to fucking say what happens. Could be your local mountain man out there just vibin on his own time, could be your local serial killer up to some shit, who knows!
In this scenario you are also “just existing out there.”
And that is the entire point. The article didn’t say “any man” it said “a random man”. Could go either way, who knows? With the bear it’s far more certain it just wants to leave you alone.
i mean yeah, but if i was just existing out there alone that would be fucking weird. But only just fucking weird. If i was out there but WITH someone else, i would be REALLY fucking confused.
obviously. I wonder what the statistics would be though. Since it’s a “random” person, i wonder how likely you would actually be to get a shitty person. Bear stats are even harder though. So it’s not even like you could compare it.
people often sight that 1 in 3 woman experience sexual assault (i think that’s the correct phrasing) but that’s a basic collective stat. And given the fact that it’s just a random man. I would have to assume the chances of getting someone who isn’t going to fuck your shit up is pretty good. I’d be surprised if it was less than 50% frankly. Now when it comes to bears, there are a few bears, but assuming black bears, grizzly bears, and brown bears, black bears are pretty chill from what i’ve heard. Grizzly bears tend to be problematic. Brown bears are generally docile, but can be temperamental apparently. So for statistical simplicity we’ll just say you’ve got a 25% chance of getting cocaine bear’d because likewise, the bear doesn’t know why it’s there. I would feel like if you were to select a man at random from society, you’ve probably got equal to marginally better chances. I mean you’d have to get a pretty fucked up individual to just throw them in there and the first thing they decide to do is commit rape, or worse.
And presumably there aren’t any established rules for how you got there, i like to think of it as if you were just teleported there, and i suppose that’s unrealistic, but the alternative is walking into the forest with a fucking bear lmao. Or just being in a forest while a bear is also in the forest, and at that point, i don’t think it would make a difference anymore. Given that you’re likely to be too far away from each other to be an immediate danger. So i’m presuming we’re just dropped within visual/hearing distance of each other.
but naturally, that’s not the point of this thought experiment. The whole point is to make a point, because it’s actually a bit of societal quip more than anything. But i like thinking about this shit like a thought experiment because i prefer to not think about being murdered generally.
Also here’s a fucking nitpick if i’ve ever had one “any” is literally a synonym to “random” Any is quite literally describing “any one of these things that you could possibly select will do the job” and random is quite literally" pick one of them, at random, in a mathematical sense" So from the point of the argument, they mean the same thing.I havent read the article, but from the heading and the teaser of it it seems to be a personal opinion piece of what she would prefer and asking other women about it.
Where exactly does she actively insult all men?
The part about saying she would prefer being alone in the woods with an animal that would maul and eat her alive than being with [insert trait you were born with].
If you don’t think it’s insulting, switch out the word “men” with gay/jew/trans or any other group of people and ask if those people would feel insulted.
It’s a statement that very likely would be removed by moderators and gotten you banned on certain instances on Lemmy if you did. I honestly don’t believe you’re asking that question in good faith.
I can’t say that I blame her and I’m a guy. Besides, you know she’s just being over the top to make a point. Take five seconds, look at what she’s really saying and stop looking for reasons to be angry at her.
I was merely replying to the other person who seemed to be arguing in bad faith.
I don’t really have much interest the online gender debate. From the few tidbits I’ve seen, it’s not a healthy debate and it doesn’t align with anything I’ve seen in real life in Norway.
You yourself have completely ignored the argument you’re responding to in order to chastise about arguing with a bad take.
It’s looping upon itself and it all starts with one bad take. Maybe you can accept bad faith arguments are bad and move on?
“I don’t feel comfortable being alone at night in the ghetto” = reasonable statement
“I don’t feel comfortable around black people” = being over the top to make a point.
It’s not okay and she should be shunned for saying such things.
“I don’t feel comfortable being alone in the woods with a stranger” = reasonable statement
“I don’t feel comfortable around men in public” = not what was said.
Boo fucking hoo.
It sure is hard being a man, amirite? /s
It’s too big of a group to generalise. Your seemingly utter lack of understanding will only help drive the wedge between the genders even further.
It’s genuinely sad to see how annoyed and bitter some of my older male relatives have become due to people like you acting as if only 1 gender matter. Back in the days they would have called themselves feminists, but now their perception is that that group hates them instead.
Okay, let’s reframe this to be about a different specific group.
Let’s say this woman wrote this exact same opinion piece, but instead of it being about men in general, it was about black men specifically.
And she is just saying that she would rather take her chances with a wild animal than be alone with a black man. Is that perfectly okay and not insulting/demanding to black men in your eyes?
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Power by demographic association is bullshit. Cletus in the trailer park does not wield societal power because a majority of members of Congress are the same color and sex as he is, because they don’t work to protect his sex or color - they work to protect their own economic class and that of their donors/owners.
The trick is that you can’t take each demographic axis and declare that there is a hierarchy there where one group is the “oppressor” and thus has power over all members of the other groups who are deemed the “oppressed”. And usually the whole point of doing so is to try to fit it into a model of Marxist class conflict, which is only really a passable model for economic class (and accordingly only works for other demographic axis to the degree that they correlate with economic class). There are lots of areas where reality violates the fuck out of said hierarchies, and it leads to either attempts to excuse it or bullshit around it that I like to liken to the epicycles and deferents once used to shoehorn geocentric models of the solar system back into line with observations.
Hell, look at criminal justice - for nearly every measure where the system appears to favor white over blacks and you would probably call it racist, it also appears to favor women over men (usually to a similar or larger degree) but you would likely not call it sexist because that violates the hierarchy by putting women over men.
Education is similar, there are studies suggesting that teachers preferentially grade in favor of girls (specifically showing that girls get better grades for similar work but that difference vanishes in standardized testing where the grader cannot consider the sex of the student). Girls outnumber boys in both entering higher education and getting degrees, and have since something like the early 80s - yet we still maintain preferential scholarships and recruitment opportunities for women as opposed to men - usually by just deciding the only fields worth worrying about are the few that remain male dominated.
I’m in a piss-filled trench! The wealthy have the power! Though I am stronger than the average woman, which I acknowledge is a useful trait. Especially for digging trenches with piss seeping into them. Now that’s wielding social power.
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By what metrics do men dominate society?
But, I mean, are you acquainted with said bear?
Are you on terms with each other’s intentions?
'Cause if you’re in the woods with a stranger, there is a 50 percent chance you’re going to have a bad time. Human or bear.
Stupid city folk. Comparing a BEAR with a honeybear…
A bear predictably would rather have nothing to do with me. If I treat a random bear with respect it will be more likely to treat me with respect than a random man.
I dk, did it have any cocaine or do I have food on me?
Though that would also apply to a human.
See, the difference is that the OP didn’t use the word “all” anywhere. If you’re not one of the untrustworthy men, then it isn’t about you.
Would you accept this logic about any other group like that?
if someone said “Black people are thieves” then when you called them out they said “I didnt say ALL black people are thieves. If you’re one of the good ones, then its not about you.” would you just accept that as a perfectly reasonable statement or would you still call them racist?
Having something stolen from you most likely isn’t going to leave you scarred for life. And men are not, and have never been, an oppressed group. People who say “black people are thieves” say that because they are racist and want to veil their bigotry. Women who say “I’m scared of men” say that because they most likely have had negative experiences with them and understand that they are physically weaker than them.
Okay change it to mugged or beaten then? You know the point I’m making and purposely focusing on minor details instead of that actual point doesn’t make your case any stronger.
I’m not claiming they are. If you’re going to argue with me, then please argue against what I’m actually saying, nit whatever strawman you need to construct.
Imma trust you’re an intelligent person and let you work out what’s wrong with this one yourself.
If someone has been frequently harassed and endangered only by black people, I’m not going to tell them they can’t be cautious of black people.
Bruh
so you believe racism is/can be justified?
No. But I’m also not going to undermine other people’s lived experience like that.