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- cross-posted to:
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I have mixed feelings on the pronoun use, but having read some of her autobiographical writing I don’t think she would have taken much issue with it. This piece is more focused on her work in computer engineering, so I felt it was appropriate to post here.
It’s fine how they’ve used it because it’s referring to the time before transition, so it’s just being accurate and also means the story makes more sense.
A lot of trans people would disagree. Just because someone was forced to conform to their biological sex for years doesn’t mean they felt that way on the inside.
Every trans person I know, without exception, prefers to refer to their pre-transition selves by their current pronouns and would take issue with the suggestion that they were still a boy/girl before becoming a girl/boy.
One analogy to consider is when someone comes out of the closet as non-hetero.
Say you know a man called Joe Schmoe who used to live “in the closet” but eventually came out and said he was gay, he’d always been gay, and he’s ready to publicly proclaim his sexuality. You wouldn’t then look at a photo of Joe taken back before he came out and say “this is a picture of heterosexual Joe Schmoe” because he wasn’t heterosexual, he was a gay man who wasn’t yet able to outwardly live that particular truth. Past Joe was still gay, not straight, and it remains correct to refer to him as gay no matter when in his life you’re talking about. The error of his previous misidentification has been corrected, and his labels thoroughly (and retroactively) updated to reflect that.
Similarly, it’s correct to always refer to a trans person as their true gender, preferred pronouns, and preferred name, even if you’re referring to a time in their life when they were not yet living that truth. Lynn Conway was correctly identified as a woman with she/her pronouns, and this article does her a disservice through its mixed-up pronoun use.
can confirm
That makes sense, but then the term “transition” seems incorrect. More of a “resolution”.
Transition can refer to different aspects like your appearance or how you present socially. So transition is still the right term.
That’s why the prefix “trans-” exists, not just for transgender people, but for other things like transportation, transposition, transition, transformation, Transjordan (sorry, I just HAD to make that joke), it simply means “the other side”.
That emphasized my point. If someone feels that they had always been a certain way in the past even though they didn’t look it or act it in public, there is no “other side” of themselves. I’m not trying to change the vocabulary, just was an observation of using a word past its usual meaning. That’s how words evolve.
There can still be another side, like I said, just in another aspect. Their gender identity might have been the same througout but their presentation would’ve probably changed with time. Thus a transition.
Exactly.
Agreed, this is generally true, though personally as a trans woman, I prefer to refer to my child self with gender neutral terms. Others can refer to my child self with my current pronouns, or with gender neutral pronouns.
so “I/me/mine”, right? :*P
Hah, got me there on a technicality.
An example though would be one friend I have who was telling me recently about a story from back when we were in high school. When quoting someone who was talking about her, she chose to use her current pronouns and current name even though realistically those wouldn’t have been used at that time. Even if it’s less “accurate” in a historical context, it’s a positive affirmation to be able to say “this is who I have always been, even if I couldn’t share it publicly at the time.”
And it also helps those in the present who may have never known her back then and might wonder who she was referring to. A bit like how one might talk about the childhood of Lady Gaga and not the childhood of Stefani Germanotta.
Also in the case you described when she talks to someone who didn’t know her pre-transition it would be a forced outing using the old pronouns and deadname.
I did get the point, just felt like you walked right into that one ;) As for pronouns, I believe each person is different & one should ask them before assuming - but I also think “misgendering” someone in past tense regarding a time before their transition, before being informed about their preferences, shouldn’t be met with the same disdain as the “vanilla misgendering”. In general none of us should be getting our panties in a wrinkle over other people’s way of addressing us unless there’s malicious intent (and even then, getting angry about it is just going to ruin our own day, chances are not theirs if they are that inconsiderate.
Why make a big deal about it? Have you ever considered that if the writer respects Conwyay, then the writer is doing what she wanted?
I know there is variance among the community. Of my three trans friends 2 prefere being referred to by their post transition gender in the past tense and once preferes they/them.
A coworker who came out requested he/him until after they took time off for treatment and then she/her afterwards.
When asked if he wanted his name updated on an award plaque while away he said no. So when she returned we had only updated her door name plate and info in the company directory.
What they “felt on the inside” is not the same as what they actually were at the time though. Referring to them as he or she is just a statement of fact at the time.
We had this same thing when Ellen Page became Elliot Page. Then there was an attempt to retroactively change all references and make them Elliot Page, even though the work he did before was as Ellen Page.
It’s not transphobic to acknowledge the person they were before transition.
How about letting transgender people decide that?
I for one want to be referred to by my chosen pronouns even in the past pre-transition.
Exactly, why didn’t they just ask Lynn Conway for her preference when writing the article?
Well played
Trans person here. I vehemently disagree and would find this treatment exceptionally disrespectful.
I transitioned at 17 though; referring to someone who transitioned later in life can be somewhat different.
Why though? You were that gender, and then you transitioned to what you are now.
Just because you weren’t happy as your birth gender doesn’t mean that it didn’t exist.
Just because other people saw me as a certain gender doesn’t mean I actually was, especially not when it comes to my sense of self.
I’m not trying to erase something that existed, I’m asking my family to reframe my childhood from the way they saw it to the way I actually experienced it. They’re empathetic and they love me, so they do me that service.
I would ask a reporter attempting to cover my life story to do so in a way that’s consistent with how I want my life to be portrayed. Seems like basic respect.
I’m okay with it too. It adds context. If they referred to her as “she” describing the period she was a married father with kids it could be confusing.