They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
I don’t like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it’s probably a man but every time it’s happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not “always a man.”
“Good” news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won’t end with me in cuffs) it isn’t rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you’re a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think “oh you’re a man you must’ve liked it” and just minimize it away because we’re just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I’m literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it’s the ultimate “fuck you” on top really.
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if almost 100% of them are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn’t have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
Go make your own post about male victims then.
Oddly defensive response you have.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it’s about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
So for the first study, I have my emotionally abusive ex that would threaten suicide (at the drop of a hat, but also) when I wasn’t in the mood, and for the “full numbers” there’s the two women I never dated that raped me. Huh, neat. I wonder why the only three abusive women to exist in the world chose me. Couldn’t be that it’s more common than people think or anything, no waaaay.
The share may differ - I’m not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, man can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don’t like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
I follow you, until the last part.
“Men don’t matter”, “women don’t matter” - those statements often seem to imply that the other gender is dominant and treats the other as disposable. This is not true - both men and women heavily suffer from bias, discrimination, and abuse - both in their own ways.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women, and should be thrown out the window. This includes a traditional concept that men are always perpetrators but not victims of abuse, among other things - something that is still commonly ignored, sometimes out of genuine ignorance, sometimes in bad faith.
“women don’t matter”
I have never heard that, anywhere within the last half a century. A statement like that would be seen as misogyny of the highest order, and would have the speaker publicly crucified on the altar of public opinion.
I mean, sure - it might be uttered in dark, hidden, ChristoFascist corners, but that isn’t spoken anywhere in public like the statement “kill all men” is widely lauded and celebrated by female supremacists.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women,
Then why have women been allowed to disgorge almost all of theirs, while men are being constantly nailed to the wall for theirs?
Women have been able to nearly completely release the “homemaker” status (yay! - honestly), but a man who wants to be a homemaker will nearly always remain a life-long bachelor. Having a prestigious, well-paying career (or, at least, the potential for one) is nearly always a woman’s first consideration in a man.
If a career-oriented man can (and frequently do) wife up some minimum-wage barista with oodles of student loans, why do career women almost always only look above their current economic level for mates? Because that is a reinforcement of traditional expectations.
Things along the lines of “women don’t matter” are commonly spoken by feminists much the same way you said a similar thing about men - as a statement that this gender group is a victim of modern society.
You wouldn’t hear “men don’t matter” in another context, either.
And I’m not saying that the pressure of traditional expectations is equal on women vs men, I don’t have what it takes to compare, so I won’t even try. I just state they hurt everyone, and you don’t have to sink one to raise the other.
Things along the lines of “women don’t matter” are commonly spoken by feminists
And yet - facts and evidence. In a western society, those are severely lacking from their argument, whereas the flip side is bleeding out everywhere. Hell, a saucy jaunt through any dating service - online or meatworld - is a severe cognitive dissonance to anyone trying to shill the “women don’t matter” bullshit, as beyond the top-2% of men, women have ALL the power in the dating world.
I just thank the fates that I left the dating scene behind me almost three decades ago. From what I can see, things have gotten much, much worse for men since then, and it was already horrid back then.
Then there is the gender sentencing gap in the legal system, which is three times larger than the wealth sentencing gap, and seven times larger than the racial sentencing gap. And no, this is taking into account the exact same crime with the exact same damages.
Yes, in the dating sphere women do wield more power. They, however, are also more common victims of stalking, more commonly chased by men they never asked for.
Sentencing gap is also very real.
But then there’s a pay gap, lower representation in politics (and also patriarchal traditions of diplomacy requiring high-ranking female politicians to show themselves as rough and cold to uphold their image), the common expectation to bear and rise children almost singlehandedly (despite also having to work full-time), etc. etc.
Women still face many real issues, and so do men. It’s just that men’s rights is a newer concept and it takes a lot of effort to overcome things that are sometimes as basic as the right to refuse sex.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
Yes. That is a very even and equal statement that properly balances the reality of the situation.
But equality was never their goal. That’s why those who have rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists, and are likely to call themselves egalitarianists.
rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists,
Wow. That was remarkably mask off. You watch a lot of Ben Shapiro, buddy?
Ben Shapiro is a moron. And so is pretty much anyone who has ever punted the “alpha male” narrative.
What I do, exclusively, is listen to what “feminists” say, and compare it to not only reality, but also how any flip-side examples for men are perceived. From there it is clear that the ideology is one of gender supremacy. There is no other possible interpretation, because there is no equality in their objectives. Any “benefits” that men accrue from feminism are purely by happenstance and lucky accident, but the foundation and exclusive intent of any one incident has always been female-first and almost always to the intentional exclusion of men.
And what does that mean, you fill a document with feminist phrases and ctrl+v over every word ‘woman’ the word ‘man’? That is… wow, that is incredibly academic. I’m actually hit-stunned by how smart that is.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It’s interesting to see why there’s a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting “unwanted sexual contact” in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women’s rate double men’s. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here’s an interesting part about “always a man”:
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to “always a man”.
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
Right, in many municipalities it’s impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case “men rape more than women” is like saying “you’re more likely to starve without food.” No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
You see how that skews the data, right? Sure “it’s all men” if you don’t count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
those cases are not relevant here. the data we’re talking about is not skewed. they cover all these other situations independent of municipality. also these are not numbers on reported cases (they’re included in the study) but estimated actual numbers.
With how unlikely men are to report (or sometimes, they don’t even realize they have been raped), I’m not sure how they can accurately estimate.
In any case, making it a gendered issue and lumping me, a victim, in with the perpetrators simply because I was born with a penis, and lumping my rapists in with the victims because they were born with vaginas, isn’t what I call “cool.” I’d much prefer if we made it a victims VS victimizers thing, rather than a men VS women thing, personally.
Furthermore this whole “women can’t rape men” thing needs to be fixed. I simply will not have the conversation about “who rapes who more” until it is fixed, by acknowledging it as a legitimate law I am erasing my own experiences and enabling others to do so.
literally no one lumped you in. you’re being weird right now
also no one here said women can’t rape men, which incidentally is a patriarchal concept to begin with. so consider it fixed. men do it more. significantly more.
“Always men.”
“Literally nobody lumped you in.”
Uhh, yeah, the author of the sign did. And so do the literal laws in many places.
It’s absolutely NOT fixed until the law is changed you absolute muppet.
uhh, no. “always men” doesn’t lump you in. “all men” does. this entire thing is about a sign that says “not all men”…
and if you “will not have this conversation”, you’re doing it entirely wrong by having this conversation, you half-inflated dingy! if that what we’re doing now?
Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
How’s that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and “if” and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it’s called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% … anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that’s still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women’s rates nearly double men’s in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc…
I don’t know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
Husband aside, that’s 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
Allegedly, they didn’t. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
Yeah, I feel sympathy for those deceived. With kinks like that due diligence is critical, but they were unknowingly and unwillingly party to harm. I imagine that that’s going to haunt some of them forever.
It’s definitely important to keep the focus on the primary victim, what was done to her is the stuff of nightmares, but I can definitely feel sympathy to all who were deceived here.
This is making me really angry. They knowingly and willingly had sex with her without getting her consent because they didn’t believe it was important enough. They had no problem with someone else speaking for her. This is part of what she is trying to bring attention to and you are pretending these men are victims. I am disgusted. Due diligence? Really? This is rape not a fucking business transaction. The fact that they could be so careless about her bodily autonomy and need no consent from her is damning of them and of you for defending them. Fuck everything about this.
I would hope that one that would be interested in this type of stuff would be meeting the affected party first :/
So would I, and I also wish nobody did meth. A lot of dangerous things have been normalized by many people, to the point where they get so used to them, that they seem normal and relatively harmless to them, only because their “normal” is so fucking far from the socially acceptable normal.
Because he said it was their kink to them.
Fuck off. I was abuses by my mother.
Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄
Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.
This is only natural because the post features a picture of a woman holding a highly misandric and hugely misleading sign.
Besides, it’s one of the rare venues to talk of what’s important. And when there actually are rare posts or comments regarding abuse of men, many women flock in as well to tell about women rights.
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terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
I’m not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would’ve upset as many people.
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Nah lol I literally would be in here in full support without the sign, but with the sign I am reminded that even though I have been raped by two different women, not only am I seen as a horrid abuser for the crime of having been born with a penis, the women who raped me are seen as victims for the virtue of having a vagina. Erasing male victims and woman perpetrators in one fell swoop really isn’t a good look, it makes the issue gendered rather than about abusers V victims, and then to turn it around and claim that men are making it “all about us” as if the sign didn’t lead us there in the first place is some A+ victim blaming.
If women don’t like that the conversation becomes about male victims in response to their erasure of male victims (and in this case woman perpetrators), then women should start speaking up for ALL victims instead of erasing us, regardless of how insignificant they think we are ignoring us is hurting OUR cause, yes “ours:” victims’ regardless of gender.
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Then put that on the sign, not “always men” ffs. The sign is a lie and a problem and the fact that you can’t see that means you’re part of that problem.
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To be quite frank, the vast majority of sexual violence against women is perpetrated by men. The vast majority of all sexual violence is against women.
Oh thank you for clarifying why you think me being raped is insignificant and doesn’t matter. Wanna go for the rest of the hits while we’re here? “You must have enjoyed it because you’re a man” and “she was hot you should consider yourself lucky,” or who could forget the classic “get over it pussy?”
Fine, if there’s nothing left to say, then say nothing. That’ll be better than what you’ve been doing. Sorry I’m not “one of the good ones.”
Just admit that you only care about victims of one gender and not both, stop lying.
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Just say you don’t care about men and you’re sexist. Would be way easier for you
“yea I’d like this protest, but there’s literally one sign day offends me and they didn’t chant my name so fuck them all” you’re a piece of work omg xD
No u lmao, you literally are trying to silence victims of rape as we speak and you think I’m the piece of work? You having a stroke or something?
I didn’t even look at the thumbnail. I’m a man btw. If I had to rewrite that sign it might say ‘NOT ALL MEN - JUST TOO MANY’. Or, I dunno, something like that.
I kinda feel like, for blokes there are two important things we can do. Aside from stop having arguments about who’s the bigger victim (it’s women). First is just don’t do that shit. Just don’t. It’s actually easy and rewarding to not be a bad person. Second is don’t let any other guys get away with even talking like that. Even if they’re mates, step the fuck up and let them know that talk is not okay. Let’s be honest, many of us have heard our mates talk about women in a way we weren’t quite comfy with and afterwards thought we should have said something. Say something.
Reading is fucking hard I guess
If she held up a sign holding “all gays should die” would that be enough to talk about? A protest for a good cause is not a free pass to spread untruths. There are some men in this thread who were actually raped and you rail against them for sharing their story. The trial still goes on, it’s not like people here are in favor of the rapists?
To use your inflammatory language: it’s unbelievably stupid and fragile to believe you get to direct the contents of the topic. Let the adults talk
I find it incredibly interesting that male victims are exclusively brought up in conversations about female victims, just as hate crimes against white people are exclusively brought up in conversations about hate crimes against African Americans, or how hate crimes against Christians are exclusively brought up in conversations about hate crimes against Jews and Muslims. If you use the pain of a group as a form of whataboutism then fundementally you do not care about their suffering, what you are doing is creating a competition that nobody will win. After you’re finished using your group against another group do you truly care about them? I see many people here talking about male victims but how many people here support movements like mens liberation?
Men are trash, these comments are all the proof you need for that. Pls stop acting like women aren’t raped super disproportionately often, it just makes you look like a cunt and a rape apologist. Yes men are raped, and it’s no less horrible than when women are raped. But women get raped SO much more often, and you just can’t deny that without blatantly lying. Trying to deny it is no better than #AllLivesMatter bullshit. No shit all lives matter, but bringing that up when people put a spotlight on the struggles on a specific group only serves to distract from an actual attempt at making people’s lives better
- You don’t know the real numbers
- All Lives Matter would’ve been a better protest slogan to begin with
- Men are not trash, women are not trash, some of both are, you definitely belong in there regardless of your gender identity. You can be a non-binary trash if you prefer, but I can guarantee you’re trash.
“removed for misandrist bigotry” very fun how m*n can come here and shit on women protesting for their right to not get fucking raped and say whatever sexist shit they want, but responding to it is crossing a line xD yall give zero shits about rape, you just hate women, you literally could not be more obvious about that coming to this post and trying to derail the conversation like this
Women are trash, two different ones have raped me specifically and the treatment I get from women is “men are trash.” Fuck y’all right back then howboutdat?
Also it’s current year, if you genuinely still believe “men are trash” literally means every man is a rapist, you’re just stupid or wilfully misinterpreting it. How about you actually try engaging with feminists with some good faith next time, rather than pretending we’re the scum of the earth for not catering to men 24/7
No I think it means “men are trash” which happens to be just as idiotic as “always a man.” Thanks for fucking playing, goodbye.
All those words just to backpedal on your obvious sexism and keep whining about women shouldn’t be protesting against rape. I have nothing nice to say to you, so I’ll just block you and be very happy I never have to see trash like you again :3
Women should absolutely protest rape, without excusing woman abusers and erasing male victims of women (of which I happen to be one if you haven’t been paying attention.)
Block yourself, fool.
Where is all this passion for male victims of rape when people aren’t protesting the rape of a woman or women in general?
This is a rhetorical question
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
Most men never report, or if they do it’s ignored. I’ve only told one person irl about the 2x it’s happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how’s that for “it’s always men” hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim “it’s all men” or “it’s always men” or some such sentiment “it always devolves into a discussion about how it’s not all men,” MAYBE it’s time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let’s keep up the tribalism, it’s more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
Well maybe it takes being raped by two different woman before you start feeling bad about being called a rapist for existing with penis despite being a victim. In any case your feelings are not universal and you don’t get to minimize my experiences and tell me how to feel about being categorized with the aggressors while the people who raped ME are categorized with the “only victims who can do no wrong” gender.
this doesn’t at all follow my comment so I assume you replied by accident. you’re just airing grievances, which is your right, but it’s a non sequitur.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
Basically what I’m saying is, maybe you don’t take it personally because you haven’t been raped by women before, but I do take it personally because I have.
As a non-rapist, I’m sick of constantly being seen as a high-risk individual just for having a penis despite dedicating a lot of attention to consent and being generally a highly empathetic person.
People who know me well trust me and see me as a very safe and gentle person - but in the outside world, I’m equated with rapists around a random trait.
well yeah. are you suggesting women should just trust you because you seem nice? their interactions with men from the moment they first set foot out their door suggests otherwise. to them you are high risk until they know you. you admit that once people know you they do trust you do why are you being so offended that people who don’t know you don’t? they shouldn’t.
you shouldn’t trust any woman that she won’t do anything bad to you either, but the fact remains that you’re in much less of a risk in that regard than a random woman around a random man. the mere notion that this is in any way an equivalent risk is ridiculous.
The thing is, the amount of fear displayed against men is disproportional to the actual risk they pose. This probably has cultural roots, as awareness of such risks turned into an overreaction.
More and more research comes out showing women are fully capable of abusive behavior and display it much more often that we’ve come to believe, yet as little light is shed on this in the public eye, women are still perceived as much more safe, which isn’t true either.
And besides, “men” are too big and diverse of a group to reasonably tie to any possible behavior.
I specifically noted that I don’t believe in any essential differences between men and women. this is all societal, and patriarchy plays a big role not only in the predation of women but also men and the subsequent lack of reporting.
but in the current society women are safer than men. I have never set foot out my door and considered the possibility of being sexually harassed. women do it every time, and no, not just because our perceptions are skewed, but because we have different experiences.
this is anecdotal because i can’t do studies. most of the time defenses are put up by women because they actually go through something. not because they start life that way.
And I specifically meant to say we gain ever increasing knowledge that women are not safer in many regards - not just inherently, but overall. While brute-force attacks against men are less common, coercion, mental abuse, and manipulations are rampant, and are weaponized against everyone, including strangers. (With that being said, some women, especially armed, do engage in direct physical abuse, and men can use mental one).
And I wonder what part of fears average woman faces is personal experience vs culture and upbringing. Same events can be interpreted in many different ways depending on how you are preconditioned. (Mind you, I do not say women do not face real and clear instances of abuse; some do!)
but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land – you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities
Yeah Western Europe culturally not looking too clever these days re right wing shit. Not that America is doing any better mind.
Whole world is looking quite pathetic right now.
imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going “ah yes but what about the men?!?”. I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y’all not the time
Let me ask you a question.
If this were about a gang of black people committing some crime, and as a protest someone was carrying a sign that said “not all black people, but always a black person” would you be telling people it’s “not the time” to point out the obvious and blatant racism?
This 100%. If men being raped is such s massive issue to yall, make your own protest about it, don’t shit on the protests of marginalized people bc they’re fighting for their own rights and not yours
it’s never the time for male abuse victims to share our stories. we’re used to it. we’re supposed to shut up and deal with it.
no that’s not true at all. you’re supposed to talk about it, to share your stories, to go to therapy, support groups. to make online spaces to discuss and heal and grow. same as women. unfortunately, the only time I ever see men share their stories is when it takes away from a women’s experience, which is disgusting as has been happening more and more on this app.
Again with the not listening. What I’m telling you is that it doesn’t fucking matter when we talk, collectively nobody wants to hear it. So I guess you’ll have to forgive an abuse victim for feeling frustrated.
It literally does matter when you talk. If BLM groups only ever protested when there was another protest they could hijack that would garbage. Stop talking over other victims if you actually give a shit. Doing what you and arcaneslime and a bunch of other m*n here are doing has the same effect as going to a BLM protest with All Lives Matter signs
LMAO really signaling allegiances censoring “men” like that. I would take a cue from you and start censoring w*men but thankfully I don’t actually hate “women,” I hate rape apologists like you.
And I’m “a menonite” or whatever you called me earlier, right. You’ve got problems lmao.
And don’t talk about me behind my back, have the common decency to tag me in your little tantrums.
go fuck yourself
Removed, civility.
If it weren’t for that “but always a man”, there would be no issue. Celebrating “but always a man” is the root issue here.
Yeah exactly. I’m a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it’s sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don’t know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we’ve been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it’s more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I’ve ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn’t uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there’s nothing you can do, it’s years too late, you have these thoughts like if I’d been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she’s comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it’s over, she’s safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don’t realise how harmful sexual assault is until you’ve been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn’t ‘sexual’, it’s ‘assault’.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don’t know how we fix this, but I’ve got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don’t do that shit. Never, there’s never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they’re our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there’s wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it’s us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you’re doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it’s a team effort :)
sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
Cheers, yeah I’ve kinda grown into my own shit. It’s caused me a lot of problems over the years, but I’m getting old now and I’m okay with stuff.
I’m just saying that anyone can get hurt like that, but it’s mostly women getting hurt and it’s mostly men doing the hurting. We’ve got to fuckin stop doing that because it is profoundly wrong.
Lol does it feel good that they literally called you “one of the good ones?”
Personally I think that’s pretty wild, imagine saying that to a black person lol. I’d frankly be upset by that
if I were youwait I am upset about it lol, look at me being one of those uppity men again.They said reasonable ones, not good ones. Those words have two different meanings. Don’t put words in their mouth.
Mmhmm, and if I told my friend (who is black, important note) that I like him because he’s one of “the reasonable ones,” that would be tooootally normal and not racist at all right? Right?
Ooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
Don’t lie, you don’t give a shit about male abuse victims.
I was molested by a woman as a child. That sign just makes me see red, I’m sorry if my trauma and triggers are inconveniently timed for you
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you’re a disgusting liar to claim that.
jesus man, not everything is about you. sure, not all men are sexual predators. easy enough to agree on. but the point is that all men have had opportunities to call their peers out on creepy behavior, whether it’s catcalling, looking down on women, sexualizing them, etc. and failed. each of these 50 plus men in this story could’ve reported this as odd, or talked to the women and made sure she was ok, or hung around until the drugs wore off to double check, and didn’t. each of them were given an opportunity and they took full advantage of it and of her. so yeah. all men have failed women at some point, and each of your MANY comments in this thread are honestly just another example of that, taking away from this poor women’s story to wage your personal crusade.
All men can walk around at night or alone never thinking about it though
Said as another absolute that you shouldn’t, as if PTSD doesn’t exist for men that do get raped but just not as frequently.
Yes it’s skewed but seriously try to avoid absolute statements like that cause it absolutely will push the same victim ignorance that we try to avoid with women comig forward and it will upset people.
Just say “most” or even the “average man”
Well, the preceding comment wasn’t really in good faith, pooping on a thread with tone like “you’re a disgusting liar”, so I didn’t think they* deserved much benefit of doubt
*THEY. Not “he”. See whut I done there?
Your comment doesn’t attack the person upset it just leaves out other victims as if they don’t exist.
You can edit a comment at any time and you don’t have to be miserable or rude just cause someone else is.
Lol maybe if you’re a white guy in a middle class neighborhood below the age of 60 that doesn’t have any open indication of being queer or a ethnic/religious minority.
Men are much more likely to be a victim of every other violent crime besides rape.
You’re right! Especially they get victimised by people who call themselves conservative
If you think this is a conservative thing I really don’t know what to tell you. Anyone who has been paying attention for the last five years could tell you that this is a problem that goes beyond political affiliation.
It’s the same argument people made during the black lives movement by saying all lives matter. Of course all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black lives cause they are the ones hurting. Woman are the overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims. We are talking about them right now. I say this as a male who was a victim of abuse by an older woman.
This doesn’t quite work. In fact, I think it’s the opposite.
The way I heard it described, which really drove the point home, was that imagine you are at a table and the food is being passed around. Every time it gets to you, the food is passed right past you. Everyone has a full plate except you. You say “hey, I deserve my fair share!” and then some jamoke says “we all deserve our fair share.” It’s missing the point, because you currently aren’t getting your fair share, and your unique plight is being ignored.
The sign in the case here is diminishing the fact that there are victims of females. They aren’t saying “women are unique victims” here, they are saying “men are unique perpetrators.”
Without the sign, this conversation doesn’t happen. You should be on the side of everyone else here and should be saying “hey, keep your misandry to yourself, this is about female victims” but instead you’re arguing “we should just let blatant misandry slide right now because we are talking about a female victim of a man.” It would be like (as I said in another post) letting blatant racism in a protest slide because the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
Oh yes the ever ignored male rape victims who are indignant enough to speak up in the face of a sign like this aren’t included in “the one’s hurting” because you’re literally ignoring their screams for help from the movement that is ignoring them almost harder than the rest of the world at large, by literally lumping male victims in with abusers and woman abusers in with victims, and then turning around and pretending we’re the fucking problem for being mad about that.
It’s not enough I have to be raped by two different women, I have to be treated like an inhuman unfeeling monster simply because I have a wiener while I watch my literal abusers be praised for being the right gender, and then when I say “hey maybe don’t unfairly treat me as a pariah” I get told to sit down and shut up because “we’re not talking about you right now?” Well guess what? We certainly are talking about me now whether you like it or not. I’m sick of it if I’m being perfectly honest and I’m not going to let people pretend I’m culpable for the actions of others any longer, nor will I let them silence me and excuse my abusers with signs like these.
I’m sorry for the abuse you’ve experienced and for how dismissed you may feel. Your pain is valid, and it’s important that it’s acknowledged.
Regarding the woman’s sign, it contains a false statement. However, she is just one person making that claim. While there may be others who share her view, they are a minority and don’t represent the majority of the movement or the core issue. My point is that signs like hers can distract from the broader discussion—that the vast majority of sexual assault and abuse victims are women, and now is the time to raise awareness about that.
Of course, men like you and I have been abused by women as well, and it’s essential that all forms of abuse are recognized and addressed. We must advocate for all victims. But in this moment, let’s focus on standing behind the women who are survivors and show them our support.
You know good and well she’s not the only person saying things like “all men,” though she may be the first I’ve seen say “only men.” Why are you lying? I’ve been a male victim of female abusers since years ago by now, you think I don’t remember each and every time someone has said “shut up and sit down we’re not talking about you right now?” I’ve lived this shit, you can’t tell me it isn’t happening when it happens constantly. And racists are in the minority too, should I not call out their bullshit when I see that too or is that fine because that isn’t a belief you hold?
My point is that signs like hers distract from the broader discussion and that is why they should be actively discouraged even if they really don’t care about us. Your point is that I’m the problem for having feelings about her sign or for voicing my opinions on it. Well, I disagree. This is exactly where my opinion belongs, right in defiance of that bullshit wherever it presents itself.
I’m not the one shifting the focus, “always men” is. I’d be all about it if the sign simply said “Justice for Gisèle Pelicot” or something. She chose to make the sign, and the website chose to prominently feature it, be mad at them. That’s what I’m mad at, they are the ones that are attempting to erase male victims not Gisèle Pelicot, hell I stand with her too, I’m not just about male victims I’m the one in here begging for women to actually include male victims in the anti-SA movement ffs!
And have been asking for it for years by the way, only to always be told “sit down shut up it isn’t your time you’re only 4% you must’ve liked it anyway you’re lucky you got laid quit being a pussy and complaining,” at every fucking turn.
But in this moment, let’s focus on standing behind the women who are survivors and show them our support.
This should be directed at the person waving the sign, not at the people pointing out the blatant misandry of it. She is the one making it about about the aggressors, while at the same time pissing on some victims.
It’s not the story in general, it’s the “but always a man” that’s objectionable.
Talking about it is never a problem, but a sign that says “always a man” is factually wrong and invisibilising, it is more harmful than helpful. It’s right to point it out, I think
Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.
It’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we’re always told to shut up and deal with it.
I’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories
It’s never time to break the status quo, even if it means liberation for those considered in minority groups (in this case people assaulted by women vs people assaulted by men). I’m paraphrasing a MLK article passed around a few weeks ago.
In his letter sent from jail, King went on to criticize white moderates. He said that a white moderate is someone “who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom.” Such a person is, according to King, someone “who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’”
RIP MLK. All the love
If he were alive and protesting today you’d be whining about how white lives matter too and he’s a racist asshole who thinks white people deserve to be lynched. Fuck off
Who are you referring to here? A specific person or Americans in general?
The person I’m replying to, though tbf I don’t actually know if they’re racist like that, but they and a lot of people in this comment section are speaking out against this protest about a woman who got raped constantly and rape culture against women and trying to make it about the issues men face. it’s all very “I’m white and i got harassed by a cop, so this protest about police shooting a black child should be about me too”
Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
There were multiple people raped by omision?
Told that it was the wife’s kink to pretend to be asleep and that consent was given earlier to be passed on since they would be roleplaying as soon as they got in the bedroom…
Fuck that’s fucked up, typing out.If stealthing is rape by altered consent then this certainly falls somewhere in that spectrum too.
reportedly saying he received a message on coco.gg reading, “I am indeed his wife, and I agree to welcome you.” [Source]
Edit for a quote but yeah I mean this is a huge deal and full of insane testimony that should be the basis of this discussion.
Basically threesomes where 1 of the participants have not been given a chance to fully consent and 1 was given none. Because of 1 guy who enjoyed the power he felt.
I think anyone practicing this kink knows to get proper consent before hand, a text message doesn’t cut it. They knew exactly what was going on imo.
I would hope that to be true but know that it’s not how life works. So maybe stop thinking you know who everyone else is and what they know.
Obviously the perpetrator knew and from testimony some others certainly did but not everyone thinks about their life so closely.
Hopefully it inspires more people to take vocal recorded consent and have safe words/actions but even then people will still be stupid because people don’t know what they don’t know.Best we can educate others, pity (where possible), and hold accountable for their actions as needed.
The men didn’t care about the woman’s consent. They just wanted to fuck so they accepted whatever was said. They’re victims of their own bad judgment.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
