• Lemmchen@feddit.org
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      9 hours ago

      If it’s only there like in KDE Neon, I’m fine with it. I don’t want any of my distro apps to come as Snaps though.

      • thingsiplay@beehaw.org
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        7 hours ago

        I don’t like Snap too, but it has some advantages over Flatpak. And unfortunately the most popular distribution still uses Snap. In example it is easier to create Snap packages and Flatpak does not support CLI only applicatoins, but Snap does (something like grep in example). Also some may like it more that Snap relies on AppArmor instead using the custom solution of Flatpak.

        All in all, its not like black and white which is better. I still wish only one of the formats would exist, because this is not the kind of fragmentation I wish to have. But both exist and the end user should decide which of them to kill.

        • SatyrSack@feddit.org
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          8 minutes ago

          Flatpak does not support CLI only applicatoins

          Where does that misinformation come from? That’s not the first time I’ve heard it. Was that actually true at one point?

        • JustMarkov@lemmy.ml
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          6 hours ago

          the most popular distribution still uses Snap

          Ubuntu is the most popular? On server maybe, on desktop I doubt it.

          Flatpak does not support CLI only applicatoins

          It is not true. You can install Neovim as flatpak, for example.

          Also some may like it more that Snap relies on AppArmor instead using the custom solution of Flatpak.

          It only means, that on distros without AppArmor you get almost no sandboxing of snap applications.

          The only advantage snap has is the ability to package drivers as snaps. Other than that there’s simply no reason to choose proprietary-backed snap over flatpak.

          EDIT: Typos.

  • eldain@feddit.nl
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    8 hours ago

    This article is far too hypey. One dude has started this initiative and needs people to work on his concept to get it off the ground. I’m not opposed to a red-hat free immutable system, but this one is so far from maturity this article is selling a first drawing like an almost finished product. Remind me in two years how this went.

    • Justin@lemmy.kde.social
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      1 hour ago

      Harald, the main architect behind it is already running it as his daily driver. Many others (myself included) are already testing it in VMs and on spare hardware with only very minor papercut issues to be resolved.

  • UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world
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    6 hours ago

    Ingl, this sounds like exactly the thing I want. Immutability aside, this is how I use EndeavourOS right now, but more sophisticated.

    I’m sold on it.

    • moonpiedumplings
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      6 hours ago

      I disagree, because they are not the same thing.

      Immutable means read only root.

      Atomic means that updates are done in a snapshotted manner somehow. It usually means that if an update fails, your system is not in a half working state, but instead will be reverted to the last working state, and that updates are all or nothing.

      I create a btrfs snapshot before updates on my Arch Linux system. This is atomic, but not immutable.*

      There is also “image based” which distros like ublue (immutable, atomic) are, but Nixos (also immutable and atomic) are not.

      *only really before big updates tbh, but I know some people do configure snapshits before all updates.

    • Unquote0270
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      9 hours ago

      What does atomic mean in this sense? That seems more confusing than immutable.

      • priapus@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        Atomic in software refers to an operation that cant be interrupted because it happens in one step. This one of the big selling points of atomic or immutable distros. Your system will not be left in a broken state by cancelling an update because updates do not take multiple steps, unlike traditional distros.

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        7 hours ago

        It means a change either applied completely and successfully, or not at all (think “atomic transactions” in databases).

      • Deckweiss@lemmy.world
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        6 hours ago

        How could you install anything or change any setting if it was truly immutable?

        Immutable OS makes sense in certain scenarios, but not in home computing.

    • thingsiplay@beehaw.org
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      7 hours ago

      Not all. Red Hat started this by naming their immutable distributions with “atomic” (but then not consistently…). Some people agreed, but not everyone.

    • Virkkunen@fedia.io
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      7 hours ago

      How is atomic less confusing? Immutable means that something doesn’t change, atomic means that it’s the size of an atom or has nuclear energy

      EDIT: I’ve learned that some people are overly pedantic about the meaning and practical use of the word “immutable”, so much so that they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning

      • priapus@sh.itjust.works
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        7 hours ago

        Atomic in software refers to an operation that cannot be interrupted, like the updates in these distros. Immutable is a more confusing term, as it leads users to believe that cannot control parts of the system, when in reality these distros still have tools to do so.

        • dustyData@lemmy.world
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          4 hours ago

          Settings live in user space. Software exist in containers like AppImage, Flatpak or Distrobox. If something need deep system integration, they can be layered on top of the system in the user layer. Immutable does NOT mean less control. Just exerting control over the system in a different, usually more systematic, automatic and deterministic way.

          • Deckweiss@lemmy.world
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            35 minutes ago

            Ah yes, the immutable OS, except for all of the various mutable parts.

            We should totally not call it anything less confusing.

      • thingsiplay@beehaw.org
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        7 hours ago

        Immutable does not mean “not changing”, but rather that you don’t have the rights to change. If you take the immutable option away, then its changing again, like when you update your system. People who have a problem with the term say, “see its not immutable, the term is a lie!”. Which I kind of agree, but somewhat conflicted.

        Atomic is an attempt to create a new “meaning” with a word, that cannot be misunderstood. Its trying to avoid the situation of “Free” in example. But I don’t like the term Atomic either, because it just suggest to me that everything is split into many little parts and is not self explanatory like Immutable. I’m conflicted here too.

        I’m always conflicted.

  • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
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    9 hours ago

    Ooo damn that sounds exactly what I’d like to try.

    On the other hand I feel like I’m too old for this shit. My system works fine, I understand everything, and things rarely break and never in an unrecoverable way.

  • dustyData@lemmy.world
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    9 hours ago

    Maybe they’ll fix the sddm custom theming? It’s currently broken on all immutables and doesn’t allow custom themes.

  • BRINGit34@lemmygrad.ml
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    11 hours ago

    I think gnome is working on the same sort of thing, read here.

    I’m glad to see both going for an immutable os with flatpaks. It’s so much more user friendly for the average person and if you are more technically inclined distrobox makes it a breeze to use it like a regular linux desktop.

    I hope both do well

  • Leaflet@lemmy.world
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    11 hours ago

    Makes sense that it includes snap given that KDE officially supports their apps packaged as snaps, unlike Gnome.

    If I recall correctly, aren’t they going for an Arch base? I assume they’re going to be enabling AppArmor so that the snap sandboxing is mostly working, except for the patches Canonical have failed to upstream so far.

    • Justin@lemmy.kde.social
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      1 hour ago

      Yes it is an Arch base. Not sure on the apparmor stuff and snap is basically banned from the Arch repos so it’s relegated to the AUR which makes it a pain.

    • Justin@lemmy.kde.social
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      1 hour ago

      Same steps, different base, no customisation, upgrades on day 1 of release. Probably a few more things. I also ❤️ Kinoite so nothing against them.

  • penquin@lemm.ee
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    6 hours ago

    Man, I almost want to say “I love it”. Remove the “snap” and the “immutable” and I’m all in.
    Almost there 🤏🏽

    • dustyData@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      There’s KDE Neon already. The whole point of this distribution is the atomic immutable part.

    • TriflingToad@lemmy.world
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      5 hours ago

      I don’t understand why people want immutable. I don’t know all that much about Linux but on my Steamdeck it keeps getting in the way anytime I try to do anything

      • capital@lemmy.world
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        1 hour ago

        I personally don’t tinker much with the OS. I want it to stay out of the way and let me do things. In the case of Bazzite, everything I need for gaming is just there and works without me lifting a finger.

        I like the safety and simplicity immutables bring.

        If I’m doing something out of the ordinary, a temporary container usually suffices.

        It’s really made the switch from Windows as a daily driver much easier.

      • penquin@lemm.ee
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        3 hours ago

        Some people like it, I don’t like and will never mess with it. I do understand why some folks like it. It’s basically for those who want a system that’ll never break to a point where they can’t access their data. I just can’t use it

      • UNY0N@lemmy.world
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        5 hours ago

        You certainly have to learn new ways of doing things when you want to tinker, but they are basically UNBREAKABLE, which is my main plus point. I’m busy, I need my PC to be reliable. I don’t want to have to troubleshoot stuff just to keep it up and running.

        If I had more time I would really enjoy the tinkering, but I don’t so I need my distro just work.

      • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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        5 hours ago

        Immutable is fantastic in theory. Where it falls apart is having to basically rebuild the whole distro every time you want to make a change. It should be there your base distro is immutable, then any extra changes go on an additional mutable layer but that would be difficult to set up. (You’d need a package manager like Nixos or something.)

        • dustyData@lemmy.world
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          4 hours ago

          your base distro is immutable, then any extra changes go on an additional mutable layer

          That is exactly how OsTree and other layering solutions work. Only Nix requires a whole distro rebuild.