What if that’s they don’t care, as they’re the evil empire.
It reminded me that scene in Andor (2022) in the first season, episode 9, ‘nobody’s listening’ the protagonist says they’re not listening to prisoners as they don’t care, so much they don’t believe they can lose their domination. You have to be in the context of the show (which I highly recommend, if you like the Star Wars universe) to get the reference. But I think that could be the case here.
Microsoft may not care, not because they know something, but rather the opposite. Them being pedo oligarchs not really caring much. Perhaps they’re still into the illusion Linux is some very niche thing for dorks.
I have an interesting story about it (I’d write it in my blog, it’s somewhat long). If in a few words, at my kid’s school, they (a few teachers) have a very old PC that struggles with Windows (also, It’s HDD there), so I reinstalled Linux there. Prior, I asked what they use. ‘Not much really’ was the reply, and so I explored, and diagnosed it’s just browser (which was obsolete and couldn’t be updated), Word, and Explorer (files manager). Not much else.
Sure thing, Linux can do all of them many times better!
I picked Fedora Silverblue (that’s the atomic version with Gnome) thinking it’s so much better than the KDE version, as it’s simpler. It’s not more complex than Chrome OS. My mistake, even advertising it as a macOS (good, right?) clone did not help, they were terrified. The very next day I rebased it to KDE, and applied some Windows 11 theme. It was very similar in its looks. They said ‘OK, we’d try to use it’ but the very next day they asked me to bring their system back. (I never erased it, just swapped their HDD with my SSD.)
I gave up, perhaps quite quickly, but I have no resources to push them at the moment. For you to understand, their computer switched from being very noisy to being so silent I was asking (every day while it was with Linux, like 3 or 4 days in total) whether it’s on or not. Back to Windows, and it’s super noisy back again. The difference was night and day. Right now, the machine boots within like 5 minutes. A couple of minutes to desktop, and a few minutes for it to become usable. With the SSD and Linux, half a minute tops. And when it’s booted, it’s pretty much instant.
browser is the same, but updated
Word is Libre Office Writer, which is simpler. They don’t use it heavily, so it should work for them. I set it to save the files as docx. The icon is from MS Word.
file manager is many times simpler visually, yet million times more advanced. A Linux user would surely know the difference, especially given Microslop did theirs in Electron, lol.
Yet, they were afraid of Linux. Perhaps, my mistake was stressing that. Maybe I should have Only Office installed (is it more alike? Haven’t used it for many years), and invest some time into tuning the theme to be identical, it had some minor difference. And tell them that’s Windows 11, and I just updated their system. I don’t know. Their concern was they didn’t know how to work with it, not even trying. I explicitly offered to babysit them for a few days, to help them adapt, but they refused.
Perhaps, I should have tried Zorin, if it’s more similar visually. But I have no experience of it, so I’m not sure.
Apart from that, I believe Linux is more than ready to be a desktop OS, it has everything needed, or almost everything. Only some software is lacking, I’d say.
Your mistake was telling them something scary and leaving, the very first pixel out of place and they gave up. People don’t want you to give them projects, they want you to fix their problems.
If it’s a system you’re sure of the use case then set it up to be a Windows clone like you planned and tell them you found a (locked down and lightweight) long service life distro based on Windows 8 or something. Yes, it’s a lie. Nobody will care as long as it works generally like they’re used to, I promise. But if you have to explain caveats to their normal workflow like you’re giving a tutorial then you might as well not bother.
Thanks, I do agree, I should have not told them that. And if I’d invest more time into theming, the attempt could be more successful.
Also, I partially replied to you both in this sibling comment of mine. But I’d partially repeat: I am able and willing to invest inadequate time into helping them adapt, but they react as ‘thanks, we’ll try it on our own and ask questions’ but the questions never followed. The only request was to return to their previous system.
I did it as I did it, only because I did it before the Christmas, but decided that there are holidays coming, and I’d swap the disks right after the holidays. And I did it after the Easter, which was a few weeks ago. If I’m to explore theming and KDE in more depths, it’s quite realistic I’d update their system by the next Christmas, if not later.
At the moment, I think of trying Windows 11 IoT LTSC with them, and see how it goes. And then attempt to swap it for something like Zorin or highly modified KDE. To my brief search, it looks like it’s just easier to find more modern themes than something old, like Windows 10 or 7. I found a nice clone of Windows 7, by the way, but it was unrealistic, they look a bit younger than the people who’d heavily use Windows 7 (as I did, before moving to macOS Mac OS X and Linux). I believe most folks don’t remember Windows 7, so if you theming, you’d rather theme for something more modern.
Sorry, I don’t mean to accuse you of anything. I should’ve made it more clear that most people just won’t try new things no matter how easy you make it for them. They will literally turn their brain off if it’s outside of their comfort zone no matter if it’s just the tiniest of steps.
No worries! I’m happy I’ve got some feedback, as I’m not sure what to do. After I completely switched to Linux (from macOS, fwiw), I am pretty sure Linux can replace a home system for most people. Except some having very unique very niche software. Some of which can be easily run either with Wine or even a VM, if it’s needed occasionally and the hardware allows. Or dual-boot, if the hardware doesn’t allow a VM. I know it’s not really useful to dual boot, as that’s how I tried to migrate to Linux 20 years ago. Back then, though, I had pretty long periods of not booting Windows.
Today, one of the teachers asked me about Krita being installed, whether that’s some default Linux app. I told him I downloaded it. (Pretty randomly, they don’t need it there at the school.) He does some photo editing after hours, so he knows Photoshop. He was impressed it’s very similar in its interface and functionality too.
I mean, I’m very sure most of the workflows are good with Linux, and it’s just superior, aesthetically wise too, which wasn’t the case for many years, unless you’d want to theme it heavily. But it looks like either there’s a more efficient strategy, or each case must be targeted individually. Say, if I’d hire people to do some office-type job with the computers, they’d have no say in their OS. It would either be Linux, or macOS if they’d need any special software unavailable with Linux. Eg graphic design, I’m not sure Linux is good enough here. However, I’m doing my best to try doing it with Linux. Not as bad as I expected it to be, by the way. If there’s a workflow with Windows, like 3D something or CAD, I’m not sure. I’d try to force Linux, but theoretically, I’d allow that person to have Windows for that. I remember I worked at one advertising agency almost two decades ago, and everyone had Macs, and only one 3D guy had a beefy PC with 3Ds Max. He was mostly chilling while waiting for his renders.
Saying that, not every situation is alike, and I see no proper way of people switching to Linux, unless they are interested themselves. Or they are forced and have no say in this.
Also, it doesn’t try to be friendly. There are cases when it’s fucking broken in so many ways, I just hate the devs sometimes. Perhaps, that’s the reason I prefer the tools to be as minimal as possible. I use Arch with Sway wm and most of my apps are TUI or very minimal. I tried KDE, it’s great, but there are some idiosyncrasies in the very Fedora Kinoite. That’s their flagship distro, and some things are straight broken with the Discover app. I won’t provide a proper bug report here right now (it’s unnecessary anyway), but I remember me thinking ‘the fuck? Didn’t you test the app with the atomic distro you advertise? How would a normie who knows nothing of Linux would even understand how to make it work?’
For some weird reason, there are countless of things like that. I tolerate them mostly, but a normie would easily panic upon facing a thing like that. I was like that myself once. That’s why I’d prefer these interfaces to become better. They’re mostly bad in many cases. Maybe the reason is some lonely developer in Nebraska, who made some tiny tool for fun, and a corporation has no resources of making it better, right?
Gnome 3, despite being simple by design and relatively easy for us techy folk to adapt to, is likely still quite a radical departure for someone who understands absolutely nothing about computers besides what they had to learn to do their jobs.
Explaining Computers did a good video on Zorin, where he shows it can be more Windows-like. Linux Mint is another good option, but it wouldn’t be too different from the Windows themed KDE you tried, IMO.
I think with people such as you described, where change is feared so much, it probably is best to stick with the most familiar possible layout, and to not share more information about the differences than absolutely needed. Perhaps the initial Gnome 3 shock made them shut down even when KDE was introduced instead? Hard to say. Good on ya for trying, though.
Thanks, I think I may try again some other time, when I’d explore theming. I have never tried (and needed) my system to look like Windows, as even when I used Windows itself, I was making it a mix of the best things from macOS and Linux. Here, I surely made a mistake of not hiding the attempt and showing them the modern Gnome, which is pretty simple for a newcomer. A non-techie friend installed Fedora Workstation (to be precise, Silverblue) once, and in general was very positive about his impressions.
Also, an interesting thing about tech support: I’m much more qualified with Linux than they are with Windows. And I’m able to help them adapt, by investing inadequate time (like an hour or two a day, if needed), asking nothing in return. Yet, people are not willing to try, perhaps they are afraid, or have some stereotypes of Linux maybe.
What if that’s they don’t care, as they’re the evil empire.
It reminded me that scene in Andor (2022) in the first season, episode 9, ‘nobody’s listening’ the protagonist says they’re not listening to prisoners as they don’t care, so much they don’t believe they can lose their domination. You have to be in the context of the show (which I highly recommend, if you like the Star Wars universe) to get the reference. But I think that could be the case here.
Microsoft may not care, not because they know something, but rather the opposite. Them being pedo oligarchs not really caring much. Perhaps they’re still into the illusion Linux is some very niche thing for dorks.
I have an interesting story about it (I’d write it in my blog, it’s somewhat long). If in a few words, at my kid’s school, they (a few teachers) have a very old PC that struggles with Windows (also, It’s HDD there), so I reinstalled Linux there. Prior, I asked what they use. ‘Not much really’ was the reply, and so I explored, and diagnosed it’s just browser (which was obsolete and couldn’t be updated), Word, and Explorer (files manager). Not much else.
Sure thing, Linux can do all of them many times better!
I picked Fedora Silverblue (that’s the atomic version with Gnome) thinking it’s so much better than the KDE version, as it’s simpler. It’s not more complex than Chrome OS. My mistake, even advertising it as a macOS (good, right?) clone did not help, they were terrified. The very next day I rebased it to KDE, and applied some Windows 11 theme. It was very similar in its looks. They said ‘OK, we’d try to use it’ but the very next day they asked me to bring their system back. (I never erased it, just swapped their HDD with my SSD.)
I gave up, perhaps quite quickly, but I have no resources to push them at the moment. For you to understand, their computer switched from being very noisy to being so silent I was asking (every day while it was with Linux, like 3 or 4 days in total) whether it’s on or not. Back to Windows, and it’s super noisy back again. The difference was night and day. Right now, the machine boots within like 5 minutes. A couple of minutes to desktop, and a few minutes for it to become usable. With the SSD and Linux, half a minute tops. And when it’s booted, it’s pretty much instant.
Yet, they were afraid of Linux. Perhaps, my mistake was stressing that. Maybe I should have Only Office installed (is it more alike? Haven’t used it for many years), and invest some time into tuning the theme to be identical, it had some minor difference. And tell them that’s Windows 11, and I just updated their system. I don’t know. Their concern was they didn’t know how to work with it, not even trying. I explicitly offered to babysit them for a few days, to help them adapt, but they refused.
Perhaps, I should have tried Zorin, if it’s more similar visually. But I have no experience of it, so I’m not sure.
Apart from that, I believe Linux is more than ready to be a desktop OS, it has everything needed, or almost everything. Only some software is lacking, I’d say.
Your mistake was telling them something scary and leaving, the very first pixel out of place and they gave up. People don’t want you to give them projects, they want you to fix their problems.
If it’s a system you’re sure of the use case then set it up to be a Windows clone like you planned and tell them you found a (locked down and lightweight) long service life distro based on Windows 8 or something. Yes, it’s a lie. Nobody will care as long as it works generally like they’re used to, I promise. But if you have to explain caveats to their normal workflow like you’re giving a tutorial then you might as well not bother.
Thanks, I do agree, I should have not told them that. And if I’d invest more time into theming, the attempt could be more successful.
Also, I partially replied to you both in this sibling comment of mine. But I’d partially repeat: I am able and willing to invest inadequate time into helping them adapt, but they react as ‘thanks, we’ll try it on our own and ask questions’ but the questions never followed. The only request was to return to their previous system.
I did it as I did it, only because I did it before the Christmas, but decided that there are holidays coming, and I’d swap the disks right after the holidays. And I did it after the Easter, which was a few weeks ago. If I’m to explore theming and KDE in more depths, it’s quite realistic I’d update their system by the next Christmas, if not later.
At the moment, I think of trying Windows 11 IoT LTSC with them, and see how it goes. And then attempt to swap it for something like Zorin or highly modified KDE. To my brief search, it looks like it’s just easier to find more modern themes than something old, like Windows 10 or 7. I found a nice clone of Windows 7, by the way, but it was unrealistic, they look a bit younger than the people who’d heavily use Windows 7 (as I did, before moving to
macOSMac OS X and Linux). I believe most folks don’t remember Windows 7, so if you theming, you’d rather theme for something more modern.Sorry, I don’t mean to accuse you of anything. I should’ve made it more clear that most people just won’t try new things no matter how easy you make it for them. They will literally turn their brain off if it’s outside of their comfort zone no matter if it’s just the tiniest of steps.
No worries! I’m happy I’ve got some feedback, as I’m not sure what to do. After I completely switched to Linux (from macOS, fwiw), I am pretty sure Linux can replace a home system for most people. Except some having very unique very niche software. Some of which can be easily run either with Wine or even a VM, if it’s needed occasionally and the hardware allows. Or dual-boot, if the hardware doesn’t allow a VM. I know it’s not really useful to dual boot, as that’s how I tried to migrate to Linux 20 years ago. Back then, though, I had pretty long periods of not booting Windows.
Today, one of the teachers asked me about Krita being installed, whether that’s some default Linux app. I told him I downloaded it. (Pretty randomly, they don’t need it there at the school.) He does some photo editing after hours, so he knows Photoshop. He was impressed it’s very similar in its interface and functionality too.
I mean, I’m very sure most of the workflows are good with Linux, and it’s just superior, aesthetically wise too, which wasn’t the case for many years, unless you’d want to theme it heavily. But it looks like either there’s a more efficient strategy, or each case must be targeted individually. Say, if I’d hire people to do some office-type job with the computers, they’d have no say in their OS. It would either be Linux, or macOS if they’d need any special software unavailable with Linux. Eg graphic design, I’m not sure Linux is good enough here. However, I’m doing my best to try doing it with Linux. Not as bad as I expected it to be, by the way. If there’s a workflow with Windows, like 3D something or CAD, I’m not sure. I’d try to force Linux, but theoretically, I’d allow that person to have Windows for that. I remember I worked at one advertising agency almost two decades ago, and everyone had Macs, and only one 3D guy had a beefy PC with 3Ds Max. He was mostly chilling while waiting for his renders.
Saying that, not every situation is alike, and I see no proper way of people switching to Linux, unless they are interested themselves. Or they are forced and have no say in this.
@wltr @canthangmightstain Main obstacle before Linux was the stupidity, 30 years ago exactly like today.
Also, it doesn’t try to be friendly. There are cases when it’s fucking broken in so many ways, I just hate the devs sometimes. Perhaps, that’s the reason I prefer the tools to be as minimal as possible. I use Arch with Sway wm and most of my apps are TUI or very minimal. I tried KDE, it’s great, but there are some idiosyncrasies in the very Fedora Kinoite. That’s their flagship distro, and some things are straight broken with the Discover app. I won’t provide a proper bug report here right now (it’s unnecessary anyway), but I remember me thinking ‘the fuck? Didn’t you test the app with the atomic distro you advertise? How would a normie who knows nothing of Linux would even understand how to make it work?’
For some weird reason, there are countless of things like that. I tolerate them mostly, but a normie would easily panic upon facing a thing like that. I was like that myself once. That’s why I’d prefer these interfaces to become better. They’re mostly bad in many cases. Maybe the reason is some lonely developer in Nebraska, who made some tiny tool for fun, and a corporation has no resources of making it better, right?
Gnome 3, despite being simple by design and relatively easy for us techy folk to adapt to, is likely still quite a radical departure for someone who understands absolutely nothing about computers besides what they had to learn to do their jobs.
Explaining Computers did a good video on Zorin, where he shows it can be more Windows-like. Linux Mint is another good option, but it wouldn’t be too different from the Windows themed KDE you tried, IMO.
I think with people such as you described, where change is feared so much, it probably is best to stick with the most familiar possible layout, and to not share more information about the differences than absolutely needed. Perhaps the initial Gnome 3 shock made them shut down even when KDE was introduced instead? Hard to say. Good on ya for trying, though.
Thanks, I think I may try again some other time, when I’d explore theming. I have never tried (and needed) my system to look like Windows, as even when I used Windows itself, I was making it a mix of the best things from macOS and Linux. Here, I surely made a mistake of not hiding the attempt and showing them the modern Gnome, which is pretty simple for a newcomer. A non-techie friend installed Fedora Workstation (to be precise, Silverblue) once, and in general was very positive about his impressions.
Also, an interesting thing about tech support: I’m much more qualified with Linux than they are with Windows. And I’m able to help them adapt, by investing inadequate time (like an hour or two a day, if needed), asking nothing in return. Yet, people are not willing to try, perhaps they are afraid, or have some stereotypes of Linux maybe.