- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
Quite a few posts about selecting a distro to use. Maybe it’s time to make that link a little more prominent?
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Oh boy here we go again
Distrochooser is not a good resource for newbies IMO. There are too many questions, many of which are misleading or hard to understand (NOBODY taking this knows what systemd is)
Many answers are misleasing: “I want a distro that is supported by game publishers” for example implies each distro has its own game compatibility, this is NOT the case.
And when you’re finally done it recommends too many distros, many of which are irrelevant, niche, or flat out not recommended anymore (PCLinuxOS?!?!)
When someone asks for a distro, please just run a random number generator to choose between ZorinOS, PopOS, or Linux Mint. If someone is only gaming, maybe include Nobara too.
I vote for a random linux bot!
It would actually be pretty effective. Just have it return one of the mainstream distros and be done.
Style it like a Tux slot machine. Click on the raised wing to pull it down and let the reels roll, stopping on the perfect distro for you!
Exactly! Many of the criteria included aren’t all that good for new users, and neither are the suggestions. It’s not really a good resource for experienced users either.
Exactly. If you have to ask this sort of question, the answer is those three. Everything else is just confusing.
One of us could probably put that together pretty quickly lol
But if we did want to build a new distro recommender… Maybe there are like 5 or so questions that would be relevant.
Just off the top of my head some possibilities:
If you’re a beginner, Mint is a good choice. One could argue Ubuntu (noobs don’t gaf about snap if they even know what it is). I think noobs would want good GUI tools and a very popular, very polished distro. So issues are infrequent but finding answers is easy.
Into gaming? There’s a few distros that come up like Nobara. (I’ve seen Manjaro mentioned but idk).
If you want something that looks kinda like macos there’s Endeavor. Does anyone recommend that one these days? I don’t usually see it mentioned.
Idk.
You’re probably right, an rng that chooses between a few distros might be better lol
You mixed up Endeavor with Elementary OS, Endeavpr is an arch based distro that you can choose several DE’s or WM’s witj
Ah right. I’m an idiot.
mistakes happen :)
Yeah, I disagree. It’s the least subjective resource I can find as nobody asks the questions on that questionnaire here. I’d much prefer it if people used distrochooser and then shared their answers (e.g https://distrochooser.de/en/d5b60b6e6134/), wrote some extra stuff e.g “I want NVIDIA support because I want CUDA” or something, and based on that, we recommend distros. Instead of the herd mentality of “duh, linux mint stoopeed”
“least subjective”? All it does is have a list of some distros with some qualities, which is the same level of subjectivity as anyone who lists qualities, not to mention most of the times you get a frick ton of results which doesn’t solve your problem. And yes, I’ve tried to use it when I was a newbie like nine months ago.
The suggested distros have advantages and disadvantages stated for the responses you gave. For example, I simulated being a newbie here: https://distrochooser.de/en/d5b60b6e6134/
Mint, Zorin, Ubuntu flavors, Pop!OS are on top. Then OpenSuse is listed and it has a caveat “May require additional configuration for gaming”. The ones below that all have such warnings and reasons why it wouldn’t recommend it e.g for Knoppix “Can be used for daily work, but is built for live-mode”.
I look at it, and I have to scroll down 10 entries before I see something that isn’t all plus signs. Yes, you can count them, but at a glance it gives you choice paralysis. Not to mention how obnoxious seeing every single DE of Ubuntu is, and how distros like elementaryOS shouldn’t be chosen by anyone.
Distrochooser says following about fedora
- Not suitable for beginners
- Requires further knowledge about computers
Without any context. Distrochooser is a fun little game but you shouldn’t rely on it or quote it.
Moreover, it would be nice if there was any hint about the choices.
Most distributions are free. Some distributions offer additional support for a one-time fee.
- I prefer a free-to-use distribution
- I would be fine to pay a fee
Show which distros are free as in beer and which are not.
And more importantly, you pay a fee for support. If you are a home user you most likely do not need paid support.
That avoiding systemd is even a choise is nuts
I want to avoid systemd
Yes, there are people who avoid systemd but thhere’s nothing to fear about systemd and this topic shouldn’t be brought up.
Linux can use a lot of different User Interfaces (“Desktops”). Many distributions ship one desktop as default. It is important to know if you have any preferences for a desktop concept. You can switch and install new desktops at any time!
And the answers are windows or mac. Please go away from that mantra. Many would say GNOME is macish but GNOME’s workflow is different from macos. It is not macos and it doesn’t want to be macos, afaik. GNOME’s workflow is revolutionary and saying it’s like mac isn’t nice. Neither is KDE windows, it breaks with microsoft design choices.
Asking 32 or 64 bit is outdated. Which computer even ships 32 now
Where does following question lead me?
How would you rate your knowledge of Linux itself? I have little or no knowledge about Linux I have already used Linux for some purposes I have a good understanding about the Linux operating system
Fedora is for everyone. Linux mint is used by everyone. Opensuse is used by everyone. Arch is used if you want to go deeper. Nixos is maybe not plug and play. Even if you are a linux pro, you may use ubuntu. It just doesn’t feel right.
That avoiding systemd is even a choise is nuts
I really want to know what the crossover is on people who know what systemd is, much less have any actual reason to decide they wish to actively avoid it, and those who would find this the best way of determining their next distro. That has to be a vanishingly small group of people.
Good luck finding one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd
Deceptive list that appears to include only distros that don’t package systemd at all. A distro can offer more than one init system. For instance, Gentoo defaults to OpenRC but offers systemd as an option for users who want it for whatever reason. It isn’t on that list.
(But I agree that if you know what systemd is and that you don’t want it, you’re not using Distrochooser. You’re not looking up your next distro in Wikipedia, either.)
Keep in mind that you are an experienced user of linux.
This site is probably about people who are both inexperienced, and also may not have time to adequately learn the system the way you have.
And no, as someone who has gone through Fedora, Mint, and Arch, saying they’re for “everyone” just assumes everyone is going to use linux the same way you do. Which is a huge mistake. Arch didn’t even have a normal installer up until a year ago, the process even with the arch wiki guide is completely unwieldy for most users to do. Many distros disable popular codecs by default, which a lot of users wouldn’t have the patience for. Some will have Nvidia drivers for up to date for gaming, and some won’t.
And most of all, you’re also running new users into the choice dilemma, where there’s so many options they just won’t know what to pick.
Good points.
Sry for not being clear enough. Arch is for someone who wants to go deeper into linux. I’d never recommend arch for new users,
If someone was able to add a printer to windows, she’s able to add codecs to linux.
I understand your point, yet (e.g.) fedora doesn’t hide codecs, they are just not preinstalled. Could it be better? Yes. But it’s not like it was unsuitable.
Imo the choice dilemma isn’t really a dilemma. If you choose any of the 5 or 10 big distros, you are good to go. Neither is a really bad choice. Oftentimes it’s just the default that’s not perfect. But as soon as you’re on one distro, a default value is no reason to switch distros.
Btrfs, snapper, immutability, etc. those are reasons to switch, not the default values.
Fedora is not for everyone. I think the assessment of that site is correct. When I first installed it, it came with KDE and Wayland installed. Wayland couldn’t share screens at the time and my webcam didn’t work. Which new user has the time to understand the difference between X11 and Wayland? I also wanted to install OBSStudio and finding an rpm repo was no fun at all.
In the end, I uninstalled Fedora.
I agree that Fedora’s habit for pushing (sometimes breaking) changes is definitely something to keep an eye out. However, it has been so good over the last (almost) two years. I would even argue that Fedora has become more self-conscious of the consequences and (especially) how this might affect their more casual user base.
Btw, how long ago did you try out Fedora? FWIW, Fedora (Silverblue; to be more precise[1]) was the first distro that I’ve tried and while I’ve had some experiences with other distros over time (mostly through dual boot), Fedora (Atomic) seems to have become the distro I call home.
- It’s probably not as masochistic as you might think for a new user 😅. Though I’d have to say that it took some effort, control and discipline to not instantly go back to Windows (or any other Linux distro for that matter).
Fedora must’ve been during COVID, because I can’t remember the year. If things are better now, then maybe distrochooser has to be updated. It’s on github, so if you believe it’s become user-friendly, do contribute.
Fedora must’ve been during COVID, because I can’t remember the year.
That explains a lot of why you felt that way about Fedora. Thank you for enlightening us on that!
If things are better now, then maybe distrochooser has to be updated.
Can’t agree more.
It’s on github, so if you believe it’s become user-friendly, do contribute.
Honestly, I’ve tried to contribute in the past; but it didn’t feel as if they got implemented. Perhaps the maintainer has implemented them without making it noticeable to met, but in its current iteration it doesn’t feel as if that’s case. I’ve since given up on it.
While I get why distrochooser.de is romanticized, in its current iteration it’s simply not very good and anyone that is somewhat well-versed in how different distros operate and how Distrochooser works, will tell you the same. At best, it provides some orientation into what some of the more common distros are. But it fails to answer some fundamental questions in the process; like:
- What is the relation between a distro and its derivative and (more importantly) how does that matter to a user?
- How exactly does a distribution’s chosen release model affect software and updates? And while we’re into that, what’s even the difference between the “stable” used when talking about point release distros that opt to freeze packages over longer periods of time vs the “stable” that’s brought up in conversations regarding update concerns and how they might break software (I’m honestly not even sure if the one(s) responsible for writing the parts of Distrochooser even know(s) themselves)[1].
There are a lot of other fundamental questions that are involved in the decision for picking a distro that would have made a lot more sense than the ones found on Distrochooser. E.g. Do you use an Nvidia GPU and want this to cause no issues in the process of installation and is this your biggest concern? If yes: then just use Pop!_OS. Otherwise, move on to the other questions etc. I think the fact that a flowchart isn’t used for some uses and that ultimately priorities aren’t brought up to finalize the decision are the two biggest issues that Distrochooser has in its current iteration.
And we haven’t even gone over the many distros that despite having little to no user base are still included in the results, while (more recent) ‘staples’ like Garuda and Nobara are clearly left out for reasons most likely related to the maintainers not being able to keep up with the Linux landscape. Which, to be fair, is quite hard; so I don’t blame them. I, in fact, applaud them for their continued contributions and hope that some day it will become something that we can proudly present to others for their first orientation.
Allow me to end this with a question to OP:
- Do you feel the same way about excellent websites like DistroWatch.com and DistroSea?[2]
- If yes; Why didn’t you make a similar post for either of the two instead?
- If no; Why not?
- Sure, there is some overlap in what they mean and how they’re used, but it’s a very important distinction; otherwise openSUSE’s stable rolling release designation for their Tumbleweed wouldn’t make any sense.
- If anything, I think these two actually make more sense to be included.
IMO you’re thinking too much as an advanced user for a simple user. The only point I agree on is the NVIDIA GPU. If you feel up to it, contribute. The website’s code is on Github https://github.com/distrochooser/distrochooser
I’ve never heard of nor used Garuda. As I said, feel free to contribute.
Do you feel the same way about excellent websites like DistroWatch.com and DistroSea?
Never heard of DistroSea. It seem like a good complement to DistroChooser. It works for most usecases:
- narrow down what fits for you by answering a questionnaire (DistroChooser)
- if you feel like it, test a few of the suggested distros from the questionnaire on DistroSea
DistroWatch as useful as statista.com for suggesting your next travel destination. If you had to travel somewhere and had a list of criteria, but didn’t want to spend all day researching, would you go to a travel agent or open an encyclopedia?
I think many in the community, like yourself, have forgotten what it’s like to give just enough of a fuck to change something but not to want to be too invested. A beginner isn’t going to want to understand why a system is stable or not: they just want a stable system. You don’t have to explain to them “Yeah, so the configuration is a file, you see? Only you edit that file. Then you run this command that interprets the file and build a dependency tree, downloads everything necessary, to a partition that’s temporarily mounted as read-write, symlinks to…”. Nobody cares. The average user DGAF.
Imagine if you just wanted to get a vacuum cleaner at the store with 3 criteria. Imagine you don’t give a rat’s ass about vacuum cleaner. You just want to point the thing at the ground, let it succ all the bits, but as quietly as possible, and not break down in 2 years to force you back out here. But the sales person you get harps on about the genius of the person who invented some internal component you’ve never heard of, goes on to explain why, ideologically, getting a certain brand is the only way because blablablabla. Maybe you’d buy a vacuum cleaner just to shut them up or walk out of the store.
My optimal experience would be the sales person listening to me, lining up the best candidates, and explaining, in bullet points, why they are there. Then finally, ask me if I have a favorite and to give me a test environment. If I don’t understand something, I can ask more questions.- narrow down options --> DistroChooser
- test them --> DistroSea
- more questions --> right here
Thank you for your response. But our conversation seems so far somewhat inefficient. And I fear it might be due to reasons related to the XY problem. Therefore, before I reply to the points made in the above comment, I would like to ask you if you could state the following:
- Ultimately, what are you trying to achieve (and why); what is the problem even?
- What is your solution to this problem? And where does adding Distrochooser to the sidebar come into plan? Have you perhaps thought of other possible solutions and why they might be inferior to the suggested one?
Thank you in advance!
Ultimately, what are you trying to achieve (and why); what is the problem even?
There have been complaints in posts about people asking for advice on which disto to use, that there are too many such posts.
What is your solution to this problem?
Provide users the tools to possibly answer the question themselves before creating a post.
And where does adding Distrochooser to the sidebar come into plan?
DistroChooser is a self-help tool for that purpose.
Have you perhaps thought of other possible solutions and why they might be inferior to the suggested one?
- keep answering posts --> more complaints, possibly silent quitting of community
- write bot --> I ain’t got the time, maybe somebody has, dunno what the bot would do
- find alternative website --> I ain’t got the time
XY problem confirmed. Thank you OP!
There have been complaints in posts about people asking for advice on which disto to use, that there are too many such posts.
This is a legit concern.Thank you for trying to tackle this!
Provide users the tools to possibly answer the question themselves before creating a post.
Noble. And in its essence, it makes a lot of sense.
DistroChooser is a self-help tool for that purpose.
As a self-help tool it’s very bad. Sorry*. I actually hoped that you would mention how it might be used as a basic requirement for anyone that asks which distro to use. The enforcement could be done with a bot which simply scans if any link to distrochooser is present in a post that remotely resembles one that asks for advice on which distro to use. I would actually even argue against this, but I think we might be able to reach an agreement on which questions are actually worth keeping around for further use…
- keep answering posts --> more complaints, possibly silent quitting of community
Honestly, this is better than to limit newbies to strictly stick to Distrochooser for asking which distro they should use 🤣.
- write bot --> I ain’t got the time, maybe somebody has, dunno what the bot would do
I haven’t got any experience with building a bot, but I suppose it works by scanning for words in posts. In that case, simply ‘flagging’ everything that contains the words “which” or “what” in combination with “distro(s)” or “distribution(s)” and ask them to refer their questions to a dedicated Lemmy community in which they can ask would already solve a lot.
- find alternative website --> I ain’t got the time
You don’t have to find an alternative website. Nor write one yourself. As it stands, as far as I’m aware, there’s simply nothing that satisfies the basic needs for this.
So what do I propose? Relegating these questions to their own dedicated Lemmy community is probably a great and easy solution. If something like a test/algorithm/flowchart/quiz/whatever has to be created, then that one might need substantial effort to get off the ground. However, perhaps comments like these might be helpful as a blueprint.
I got bored 😅. So here is my second response. But please, before reading this one, consider reading my other reply first. It’s a lot shorter anyways 😅.
So fundamentally, I think we’re misunderstanding one another. In your defense, I can understand it; as I’m just one of the many responders and you might simply not have been able to take the time to understand what it is that I’m trying to convey and why. In my case, I think it might be related to the XY problem; i.e. you’re proposing a solution (adding Distrochooser to the sidebar) for which hope will resolve an issue that remains to be stated. For all we know, you actually try to solve something else and you perceive Distrochooser in being capable of playing a vital role in that without being aware of how else the actual problem should be tackled instead.
In this reply I will try to bridge the gap that might have made you misunderstand what I tried to say in my first comment under your original post.
IMO you’re thinking too much as an advanced user for a simple user.
I think you might be absolutely right. The thing is, though, that I have never been one of those users that post a question like “Which distro?” without providing anything beyond the most basic specifics.
Some insights from my personal Linux journey
(FWIW, this is me. And this was more of a last-ditch effort in hopes of finding something to dual boot into. By contrast, for my first distro I had spent a week of my free time digging through (video-)guides and Reddit threads until I had dismissed everything besides the distro I landed on. It seems that I did a good enough job as I’m still confidently using it. And while I’ve used and experimented with other distros since (mostly as a dual boot), my first distro is the only one I refer to as home. And the interesting part is that I’m fully aware that chances are very slim that a random bystander would ever have suggested me (as a newbie) the use of Fedora Atomic. So by doing the research myself, I’ve actually enabled myself to start with my ideal distro from the get-go. And yes; that means I’ve revisited my choice a couple of times by now, but every revisit just made me more confident in my choice.
The only point I agree on is the NVIDIA GPU.
I therefore assume you disagree not with the entire post (as you seem to be taking a liking to DistroSea), but instead refer to the parts in which I go over some more fundamental questions. I think you’ve missed what I tried to say with that and have also missed the hint[1] to make more clear why I even said those things.
Alright, let’s dismiss for a moment that the Distrochooser’s questions themselves need a lot of work done and proceed right to a ‘results-screen’. This is probably how I would fill it in on an average day*. In the very first sentence, we’re confronted with the word stable without giving any useful information on what this means and why this is even mentioned here. Similarly, the word unstable is used without ensuring that the (potential) newbie actually has a proper understanding of what it stands for. According to your logic[2] these things shouldn’t even matter! So why does Distrochooser even bother to spend a sentence on this for every one of their entries? And that’s why I actually agree with you! But if Distrochooser chooses to include it, then they at least have to be precise and elaborate on what they mean with this and why the new user should care. So, to be clear, my two bullet points weren’t meant as “Distrochooser should definitely somehow include these as they’re vital to their choice.”, but instead it was meant as “Alright, if this format for Distrochooser is chosen (with all of its faults), then the least Distrochooser should do is provide information on what the points (and used terms/words/phrases) in the ‘results-screen’ actually mean for the newbie user. And if it’s not addressed, then this automatically discredits Distrochooser as a reliable introduction/orientation to distros for new users.”. Because as it stands, a lot of the small niche distros that happen to be derivatives of Debian/Ubuntu are regarded as somehow “stable” while something like Fedora isn’t. And thus the newbie that just wants a stable system will be fooled/misled into using any of those fringe distros over Fedora. Which is just straight up BS.
I’ve never heard of nor used Garuda. As I said, feel free to contribute.
Don’t worry, others already took care of that. The fact that it hasn’t been implemented yet just shows that this is not a productive endeavor. On that note, I didn’t even notice how Garuda’s more popular sibling EndeavourOS is also absent in Distrochooser’s results…
Never heard of DistroSea. It seem like a good complement to
DistroChooseranything that narrows down choiceFixed that for you. Especially considering the fact that Distrochooser is (perhaps) more misleading than anything else. This point is a dead horse by now (at least under this post of yours), but I will be more elaborate at a later point.
DistroWatch as useful as statista.com for suggesting your next travel destination. If you had to travel somewhere and had a list of criteria, but didn’t want to spend all day researching, would you go to a travel agent or open an encyclopedia?
The response on this depends on the XY problem, therefore I will refrain from commenting on this for now.
I think many in the community, like yourself, have forgotten what it’s like to give just enough of a fuck to change something but not to want to be too invested. A beginner isn’t going to want to understand why a system is stable or not: they just want a stable system. You don’t have to explain to them “Yeah, so the configuration is a file, you see? Only you edit that file. Then you run this command that interprets the file and build a dependency tree, downloads everything necessary, to a partition that’s temporarily mounted as read-write, symlinks to…”. Nobody cares. The average user DGAF.
Imagine if you just wanted to get a vacuum cleaner at the store with 3 criteria. Imagine you don’t give a rat’s ass about vacuum cleaner. You just want to point the thing at the ground, let it succ all the bits, but as quietly as possible, and not break down in 2 years to force you back out here. But the sales person you get harps on about the genius of the person who invented some internal component you’ve never heard of, goes on to explain why, ideologically, getting a certain brand is the only way because blablablabla. Maybe you’d buy a vacuum cleaner just to shut them up or walk out of the store.
These two paragraphs are at best you misunderstanding/misinterpreting what I said and why I said those things and that’s where I’ll leave it (for now).
My optimal experience would be the sales person listening to me, lining up the best candidates, and explaining, in bullet points, why they are there. Then finally, ask me if I have a favorite and to give me a test environment. If I don’t understand something, I can ask more questions.
Generally-speaking, I agree with this. But I hope you’re not (even remotely) insinuating that this is even remotely close to the Distrochooser experience.
- Hint: “I’m honestly not even sure if the one(s) responsible for writing the parts of Distrochooser even know(s) themselves” from my first reply.
- “A beginner isn’t going to want to understand why a system is stable or not: they just want a stable system.” and “Nobody cares. The average user DGAF.”
ADDENDUM:
Alright, let's get to the elephant in the room (Distrochooser's questions).
I’ll go over every single question and offer my feedback.
- Software: Use case: This is one of the better questions. But, unfortunately, not without its faults. For one, it somehow thinks that “I want to use Linux for anonymous web browsing.” and “I prefer a distribution which is supported by game publishers.” is somehow mutually exclusive. The only way this would make any sense at all is if somehow “anonymous web browsing” implies strict adherence to Tails or QubesOS and their guidelines. But since when is it not possible to boot up a Whonix VM on any ordinary distro for anonymous browsing, while Valve’s Proton handles everything on the gaming side of things. Furthermore, the inclusion of both “I want to execute all programs in an isolated environments.” and “I want to use Linux for anonymous web browsing.” on the very first question seems as if the audience that has watched Mr. Robot are somehow treated like first-class citizens, while I thought this intended to be useful for the more general newbie. This also somehow implies that Linux is for the h4ck0rs or something. It would make a lot more sense to pose a question like that after the security sensibility has been measured first. Why is this even the first question? Wouldn’t it make more sense to know what hardware is targeted in the first place? Verdict: Fine question, but needs work.
- Computer knowledge: This question somehow implies that knowing your ways around a computer is better or something for when you want to use Linux. Why? Is it even important to know if one is adept with Windows or macOS before they use Linux? Aren’t most people more accustomed to mobiles OSes anyways? If anything, I would argue that preconceived notions on how other desktop OSes work might be detrimental. Verdict: Pointless.
- Linux and you: This should be useful, right? Well…, didn’t we already settle on the fact that we wanted this for new users? So then what does it add if we know they’re complete strangers to Linux or (instead) have used it once like 5 years ago? Verdict: Pointless.
- Installation: Presets: Assuming that “I want to choose the settings by myself” and “I want to configure as much as possible using graphical applications” are the same except for how the former is more akin to an
archinstallwhile the latter is basically the same but with a GUI, then for the new user we would always want the GUI-based, right? Alright, as for the choice that remains… I actually don’t know why either one would be necessarily preferred over the other. Being able to choose sounds good, but what actually do we get to choose? This question is honestly too vague for me without grabbing any installer with it. I wonder if you think the same… Verdict: I, personally, don’t understand the use (case) or what it tries to achieve. Pointless. - Hardware support: The single best question on the list. I would argue the possibility should be explored in which something akin to a hardware probe should be implored in order to dismiss a huge bulk of the distros simply for not being well-optimized for the hardware. Verdict: MVP, while it’s already useful in its current iteration, I do think it deserves more work before it can be actually useful for most people.
- Source for help: I guess this question tries to take into account the dynamic between how user interactions happen with on one hand well-documented projects with a small and non-vocal user base, while on the other hand we have projects that aren’t well-documented but depend on user participation to bridge the gap. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is yet another artifact from the times in which the “RTFM”-reply was to be expected for asking a stupid question. The ‘meta’ has changed so much since that this question simply seems outdated and doesn’t deserve to be on the list. For beginners, we should always encourage the use of distros with both an excellent (or at least sub-par) documentation and a lively, vocal, active and helpful community. Verdict: Pointless.
- User experience: At best, it’s an artifact of when ElementaryOS actually was a thing and rightfully deserved to be mentioned in recommendation lists. However, at the other end of the spectrum this is a false and misleading dichotomy between GNOME (and GNOME-like DEs) and KDE Plasma (and KDE-like DEs). Honestly, it’s an insult to both GNOME and KDE Plasma (and most DEs for that matter) to be compared to macOS and Windows respectively. And I haven’t even gone over how it affects oversimplification and the resulting false expectations. Don’t get me wrong, I think that -conceptually- asking for how one would like to interact with their system is very important. And if anything, exploring DEs like GNOME, KDE Plasma, Cinnamon and Xfce (etc) is one of the most important steps a new user can take in deciding which distro they should pick. But instead of asking a question like that, we should instead put our efforts into making a test distro of sorts in which one can easily explore different DEs. I’m sure something like that already exists or can simply be achieved through using a bunch of ISOs and Ventoy. But I digress… FWIW, I even saw in your post history that you made the same analogy, which just shows how misleading it is if even a veteran user for 15 years can be misled. Verdict: Pointless. But, conceptually, deserves a lot more love.
- Distributions: Price: Why is this even included? Yes, I’m aware that Zorin OS Pro exists. But this, by itself, doesn’t justify the inclusion of this question. Verdict: Pointless.
- Distributions: Scope: Does it even make sense to ask a newbie if they would like to choose their own basic programs? I think this question has potential, but requires a precursory question in order for it to be unlocked after it has been determined the user is in fact a ‘tweaker’. Otherwise, this question doesn’t hold any value. Furthermore, Distrochooser isn’t even ‘smart’ enough to know that minimal installers for Fedora and openSUSE exist for those that seek more freedom in what is installed on their systems… Verdict: Pointless, unless newbie also (somehow) happens to be a ‘tweaker’.
- Distributions: Ideology: For the Libre distros; sure, let’s overwhelm the new user with this as well /s. Verdict: Pointless.
- Distributions: Privacy: I think this question is fine. I think it needs a couple of gentle touches to be actually useful, but there’s potential and it deserves its place. Especially considering the amount of people that actually gravitate towards Linux for privacy concerns. Verdict: Fine question, but deserves some gentle touches.
- Administration: Any new user should be able to install software from something that looks like a storefront AND needs to educate themselves on how the terminal could be used to that effect.
sudo apt/dnf/zipper install name-softwareshouldn’t be too much to ask. Verdict: Pointless. - Software: Updates: Good question. The conclusions Distrochooser takes from this are laughable, but it doesn’t undermine that it’s a good question. Verdict: Fine question, needs work.
Alright, so let’s make up the score:
- Deserve to be on the list: 3
- Pointless: 8
- The hardware probe should be explored to take over the function of hardware specifics (or anything that’s similarly effective)
- Finally, the question about User experience should be reworked to implore the user to try a bunch of different Desktop Environments.
As you should be aware, I wasn’t as fire-y in the second half as I was in the first. This might be related to tiredness etc. Regardless, as it stands Distrochooser asks 8 questions too many that are not only pointless, but for their presence they also are misleading; thus they’re ultimately bad. Two questions deserve a lot more love for what they’re capable to bring to the table and one might argue that their current presence is nothing but a disservice to them. Finally, the remaining 3 questions… Surely, we should be able to ask those through a bot/template, right? Wouldn’t that be a lot better and more efficient?
And we haven’t even touched upon the myriad of questions that should be asked instead. Security vs Convenience? Which software they intend to use and if they’ve been able to actually find alternatives for those that simply aren’t supported on Linux? Automatic upgrades in the background vs deliberate updates?[3] Etc…
- Of course if the user even intends to use a distro that’s not ‘stable’ like how Debian Stable is ‘stable’.
Thanks for the thoughtful response, but I disagree with a lot of things you said. I could quote everything I disagree with and write a paragraph, however it would be a meaningless endeavor as a moderator looking at the post would probably decide against adding distrochooser to the sidebar - regardless of my opinions.
Cheers
P.S thanks for teaching me a new thing: XY problem :)
Alright, let’s first deal with unfinished business.
DistroWatch as useful as statista.com for suggesting your next travel destination. If you had to travel somewhere and had a list of criteria, but didn’t want to spend all day researching, would you go to a travel agent or open an encyclopedia?
I agree that DistroWatch is very useful as a more general resource rather than whatever you think Distrochooser is capable of. However, similar to DistroSea, it provides excellent information for anyone that is more interested in a specific distribution. Especially the reviews (by both the site maintainer(s) and visitors) are especially very valuable and the closest thing we have to an aggregated user reviews for distros. For good measure, I’m talking about the content of the reviews not the numerical representation.
but I disagree with a lot of things you said.
I’m so stoked to read these. I genuinely mean this btw*; every time someone informs me on why they disagree with me is an opportunity for me to learn new stuff.
I could quote everything I disagree with and write a paragraph
Please do. I mean it.
however it would be a meaningless endeavor as a moderator looking at the post would probably decide against adding distrochooser to the sidebar - regardless of my opinions.
This is very defeatist of you, though. And FWIW something which I didn’t expect from you. If you can even make (just) one person (in this case, perhaps me) learn something new, then that should be worth the effort. As you should be aware by now, I’m a lot more active on Lemmy than I should 😅, but this also means that having me (or anyone for that matter) be on your side might just be the thing you need to have this succeed eventually.
Distro chooser recommends nowadays non existent distros and arch to beginners you are saying “you are thinking too much as an afvanced user blah blah” It is important to know üf your disyro supports the hardware you use thta’s not afvanced and I also saw you call people who recommend mintaffecyed bu “herd mentality”. It is recommended because it is easy for new users stop romanticising an unfinished tool.
In addition, to what everyone has already said, Distrochooser is just bad. It will often pull the stupid card, like this one:
Let’s not. It’s not a good tool.
Why not?
What if we put together a table like https://github.com/basings/selfhosted-music-overview or https://github.com/meichthys/foss_photo_libraries ?
If one starts, I bet we can create an awesome table.
What would it include?
That’s the biggest problem.
- Determine which festures are relevant to a user
- Actualy differences between distributions
A difference could be ufw and firewalld but is that important?
That’s why distrochooser is a questionnaire 🤷
But the questions aren’t good enough as you can see from the responses here
“systemd question shouldn’t be there”
skip it
“NVIDIA GPU question is missing”
contribute https://github.com/distrochooser/distrochooser
“too many options”
I want to say “read it”, but IMO this is presentation, because pros and cons are clearly listed, but maybe it looks like a lot of text. Maybe people need some kind of visual like a podium and a drum roll. 🥁 “aaaand your top suggestions arreeee”…
Also, people aren’t suggesting alternatives except: “make a bot that randomly picks a popular distro”. Is that really how we want to treat new users? “Please hold, in the meantime, here’s an automated response.” Do you follow advice given in automated responses when you’re holding on a line?
The random choice isn’t really a joke. It doesn’t matter too much which distro you pick. Any distro of the big ones will suit your needs.
There will be cases where one or the other will not fulfill your needs out of the box
The systemd question keeps the mantra alive that there is something wrong with systemd which isn’t. This has to die sooner rather than later.
At first I was with this but the first set of questions is so stupid that I can’t see that being a good idea.
Somebody just code up a bot that picks a random mainstream distro everytime somebody asks “what distro should I use?”
It recommends obviously wrong choices like Tails
I just took it favoring a daily driver for gaming and every distro it gave had either didn’t work, isn’t optimized for, or requires additional config for gaming.
wat? got a screenshot or a link to the result?
No matter what I choose, I have to scroll literally to at least half or the end of the page to see Tails. Congrats on finding it in the list, I guess?
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Have you seen the Reddit Linux communities? People don’t care how many tools or useful information you present them. They will ask the SAME “which distro” questions day after day after day.
There are 3 reasons you see repeat posts.
- They are extremely lazy and can’t be bothered to find their way through a maze of information.
- The maze of information is legitimately confusing and they need help. But they are bad at formulating good questions so it looks like point #1. I very rarely see people take the time to explain what they’ve tried and why they failed.
- They want a conversation and getting their question answered is only one half of it.
Also one other thing I noticed is that if you do form a good question and create a wall of text, it can also scare people away. So people deliberately ask very vague questions and then slowly reveal more as they get asked for specifics. At that point you’ve hooked some people, they are a little more invested in helping and you can info dump on them.
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That’s what bots are for: an automated response like “have you tried XXX? share the link to the results here with additional information if you think the questionnaire didn’t consider an aspect important to you”.
It’s a soft response without banning anybody.
I like distro chooser, but the analysis seems off. It always recommends some mainstream distro that I end up hating after extended use. I’ve finally found one I like, but it was through brute force, not from some list somewhere or from asking in forums.
Distro chooser is bad, so nah
Nah, I think just recommending the most popular distro is usually best because when new users do run into issues there are years of forums that has probably answered their question before and is just one search away
According to distrowatch for a couple of years going MX/linux is nearly twice as popular as the second most popular.
MX were part of the mepis community antiX belonged to too, with more than a decade of history and body of forum discussion.Distrowatch stats aren’t reliable at all
Which stats are valid?
IBM puppet rag phoronix? For over a decade they have not made a single reference an alternative to systemd exists or a distribution without systemd actually exists.
