Remember when the war was supposed to end when all the hostages were released?
I wonder what all the people who told me that the objective of this war was to free the hostages are going to tell me now?
Not sure who you were listening to, but I seem to remember from the beginning that one of Israel’s stated goals was to remove Hamas from power. The hostages getting released was a condition for any pauses or ceasefires.
Their true goal is to erase Palestine period. Hamas could be removed tomorrow, hostages freed and that wouldn’t stop them. They would say the new regime is “backed by Hamas” or “contains remnants of Hamas” or is “influenced by Hamas” and they’ll continue. Until the international community condemns them completely for this, they will continue to their true goal.
That was never stated as official policy. Nor the actions aligned with it. You confuse Israel with Hamas, who both stated and acted upon it.
Their true goal is to erase Palestine period.
If you step back and try to take emotion out of your consideration, Israel’s actions don’t support that statement. Israel has enough military power to have completely erased Gaza months ago, without sending in a single ground troop, and there would have been absolutely nothing Hamas could do about it.
The situation as it stands right now is basically a textbook example of why the concept of war crimes exists. Taking hostages is a war crime, as is having your fighters not wear a distinct uniform. That second one is critical here, because when that law is broken, it turns civilians into targets.
Their true goal is to erase Palestine period. If you step back and try to take emotion out of your consideration, Israel’s actions don’t support that statement. Israel has enough military power to have completely erased Gaza months ago, without sending in a single ground troop, and there would have been absolutely nothing Hamas could do about it.
“An estimated 45,000 bombs were dropped during the first 89 days of conflict (Source: Gaza Media Office). It is 505 bombings a day, 21 bombings per hour.
Gaza is razed and emptied of its inhabitants by 5 months of relentless bombing. 85% of Gaza’s population – 1.7 million people – have been forced to flee bombing and shelling.
1.5 million have taken shelter in Rafah, South Gaza, that has normally a population of 250,000 inhabitants. “
https://www.hi.org/en/news/bombings-in-populated-areas--a-new-extreme-reached-in-gaza
^for a nice update, Israel is now murdering everyone in Rafa too.
It is crystal clear you don’t know what you are talking about, Israel has dropped a nearly unprecedented amount of bombs on a tiny area and for no other reason than to erase Palestinians from the landscape of their homes.
It takes a long time to murder an entire city, especially when the world is watching. Israel is doing it as absolutely fast as it can however.
At least 20 out of 22 hospitals identified by CNN in northern Gaza were damaged or destroyed in the first two months of Israel’s war against Hamas, from October 7 to December 7, according to a review of 45 satellite images and around 400 videos from the ground, as well as interviews with doctors, eyewitnesses and humanitarian organizations. Fourteen were directly hit, based on the evidence collected and verified by CNN and analyzed by experts.
The World Health Organization (WHO) said on December 21 that no hospitals were functioning in northern Gaza and injured patients who were unable to be moved were “waiting to die.” According to the WHO, as of January 10, six hospitals in the north were partially functioning.
The International Eye Hospital, in the Tal al-Hawa neighborhood of Gaza City, was damaged in early October. It was no longer standing by October 12, according to satellite imagery.
Balsam Hospital, in the west of Beit Hanoun, was reduced to rubble by November 3. Craters consistent with 2,000-pound bombs were visible near both medical facilities.
……
If you step back and try to take emotion out of your consideration
No I will not take my emotion out of my consideration, the difference between you and me is that my emotions are a warning light indicator for when my ideologies and beliefs are wrong and I have strayed too far off the course of love and empathy for others. My emotions connect me with the immense amount of suffering happening in the Palestinian genocide, even if it is just a little bit that connection categorically denies adopting a heinous lack of empathy or care for the Palestinians people as you have.
My emotions are what makes me a wholistic and intellectually consistent person and to be honest it kind of alarms me when people like you seem to have everything backwards like this and treat their emotions as superfluous entities to be discarded in favor of “cold hard rational analysis”.
because when that law is broken, it turns civilians into targets
Have you absolutely no shame? Or are you naïvely trying to sound authoritative? Unlawful combatants existing in an area, does not mean that civilians are greenlight for deliberate targeting.
Nor does it excuse the atrocious and callous 1:10,1:20,1:100 ‘acceptable collateral damage’ Hamas:Civilian ratio the IDF has self assigned and modified up and down based on international outcry.
for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians… in the event that the target was a senior Hamas official with the rank of battalion or brigade commander, the army on several occasions authorized the killing of more than 100 civilians in the assassination of a single commander
I’m talking about what actually happens, not what is “right” or “allowable”. In a warzone, if your enemy looks like civilians, then civilians start looking like the enemy. That’s the reason why not wearing uniforms became a war crime in the first place. It drives up civilian casualties.
Cop - But he looked like the perp!
Citizen - How?
Cop - His skin was darker than mine.
Same goes for soldiers killing for nationalistic purposes.
Yes, because in a war, you totally have plenty of time to stop and do a thorough investigation into which one of the five guys within sight just shot at you. Everyone will just pause everything while you figure out who you are supposed to shoot back at.
Isreal’s not exactly shooting at folks “within sight” who “just shot at you”. They’re bombing people from a very comfortable distance.
Statistics for civilian to combatant death are like 9-1 and 7-1, there’s having no choice and then there’s committing warcrimes out of convenience. Bibi says its juuust 2-1, so according to him the majority of Hamas combatants are women and children right?
You know, we’d have better and more accurate statistics about casualties on the ground if the IDF weren’t actively trying to keep a journalist/aid worker kill high score too. You don’t have to support Hamas or the Palestinians but please don’t try to justify the IDF’s actions.
Or maybe, here’s a thought: You stop reacting capriciously, and asses the situation to make an informed decision for shoot/no-shoot. Retreat to safety and investigate. Israel likes to flout their ‘world class’ ISR and HUMINT capabilities and superior and accurate weapons, but then keeps making “tragic mistakes” that kill civilians, reporters, and aid workers. Hamas et al are definitely not respecting the laws of war, but that’s not license to turn neighborhoods into free-fire zones.
Of course that requires the forces involved respecting civilian life and showing restraint.
Israel actions do support that. What else would happen if Israel completely erased Palestine in a few months? Do you think a single government would support them? The US would break ties overnight .
Genocide doesn’t mean instant or even quick eradication. It can by systematic and slow. Calculated, walking a fine line so they can call it something else. It can even be eugenics, stopping future generations.
There are people in Israel who want to iradicate Palestine, and are very open about it. Some Israeli gov officials are saying similar things. Anyone in the government with half a brain isn’t going to openly state they want to bomb a country out of existence. But we can look at the evidence and see that thie goal is to take that land for themselves and drive out the native population.
mf you say this:
Russia can end this war tomorrow. Any and all deaths are on them. Hell, if Russia would just stay out of their neighbours business, there would have been no civil war in the first place.
but then blame Palestinians for defending themselves - so kidnapping settlers is a war crime - but ethnically cleansing and bombing children isn’t?
so if I came into your house, squatted in your living room and locked you up in your closet - it’s your fault if you break out and attack me? most sane warcock guzzler ever…
In what fucking universe do you live in where only one side of a given conflict commits war crimes?
Hate to break it to you, but there are no good guys in this conflict to cheer for.
nobody is cheering for the “good guys” - but when one side is actively displacing the other and your response is to just let it happen because of both sides being bad it loses the nuance of the conflict and the people just living there. especially when we’re on a thread about one side asking about a military ceasefire in exchange for the only leverage it has - while the other refuses and actively chooses to continue it’s current onslaught.
if you actually care about lives you wouldn’t argue pedantic points about which side commits war crimes but instead influence policy towards there being less war crimes in general. (maybe starting from the ones causing the most damage…)
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This war never was about getting hostages released.
The hostages gave the Israeli government a very nice and convenient excuse to do what they always wanted to do but never could.
It’s the same as bush with 9/11 invading Iraq even though Osama bin Laden was known not to be there. He literally said he didn’t care about bin Laden, let’s go get Iraq’s oil!
The Israeli government wants the Palestinian lands and the Palestinians, apparently, all dead or gone. This reminds me of some other very large and sad event in history, the name eludes me for a second…
It was never about the hostages
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For anyone interested, Wikipedia has a page on the current hostage situation and some history.
According to Wikipedia, one of the “deals” Hamas has offered Israel was that Isreal release all Palestinian prisoners. That would be thousands of prisoners in exchange for hostages Hamas took on the 7th of October.
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From the Wikipedia page I linked to:
Hamas has offered to release all hostages in exchange for Israel releasing all Palestinian prisoners.
That’s the Wikipedia bias. The vast majority of pages are written and maintained by a small number of people with a Western Centrist perspective, which tends to be more conservative. You start to notice it more once you see it for the first time.
Is Khalil al-Hayya, senior Hamas official also tainted by western bias?
From Al Jazeera (also western bias?):
Khalil al-Hayya, a member of the group’s political bureau, said that Hamas “is serious about releasing Israeli captives within the framework of an agreement” that also ensures the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.
So to summarize: The Palestinian prisoners are referred to as prisoners by Hamas. The non combatants taken hostage by Hamas are not referred to as prisoners by Hamas.
Whether you think the terrorist organisation Hamas are tainted by western bias or not is a different discussion that I’m not interested in taking part in.
Have a nice evening. I will.
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Is it ok to quote Khalil al-Hayya, senior Hamas official ?
From Al Jazeera:
Khalil al-Hayya, a member of the group’s political bureau, said that Hamas “is serious about releasing Israeli captives within the framework of an agreement” that also ensures the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.
So to summarize: The Palestinian prisoners are referred to as prisoners by Hamas. The non combatants taken hostage by Hamas are not referred to as prisoners by Hamas.
Whether you think the terrorist organisation Hamas are paid off by Isreal or not is a different discussion that I’m not interested in taking part in.
The different is semantics
One group are prisoners and one group are hostages
The difference is due to the military control Israel has over the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Palestinians are tried in a military court with no civil rights or representation, tortured into false confessions, and incarcerated with routine torture, sexual abuse, and denial of basic medical care. That includes hundreds if not thousands of children.
Palestinians denied civil rights (HRW) including Military Court (B’TSelem)
Palestinian Prisoners in Israel including Child abuse - Save The Children
Torture and Abuse in Interrogations - B’TSelem
Thousands of Palestinians are held without charge under Israeli detention policy - NPR
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And I’m sure the Israelis will be quite fond of this stance that flips the bird at literally the single part of this whole debacle that they themselves are interested in
