Because democrats value egalitarianism and education. Good education is expensive. The businesspersons that have expended the most effort to offshore our jobs to the serious detriment of working-class America have had some of the most expensive and exclusive educations of all, and they are some of the wealthiest people on the planet… (conservatives fullstop here and ignore the rest: …who are also likely voting conservative). Couple that with the fact that expert (educated) advice and direction is often in direct conflict with the myopic goals and views of the uneducated. Don’t dump shit everywhere (but it’s cheap, easy, and fun to roll coal and pour used motor oil on the ground!), don’t cut down all the trees (but mah lumber is more expensive!), and maybe wear a mask (grandma was gonna die eventually anyways, at least I can bring her Covid from the Applebees take out!)
So it’s really easy for the conservatives to paint education = evil, and then of course they couple that with feel-good bullshit like “common sense” and small-town American wisdom that is completely meaningless but makes the uneducated feel smart or like they have control of their situation.
Because the media continually accepts and perpetuates the right wing framing of everything.
Because the media is owned and operated by rich men who benefit from putting the blame on others and calling it “news.”
/thread
All threads starting with “Why” and ending in a question mark, can be answered: “Money corrupts people”
Putin is also one of the world’s richest man and funds Trump.
Now that you mentioned putin, I propose we go looking for the Mexican cartel people who do the political events such as head and shoulders separations and we give them a challenge. Maybe give them a small island as a reward? 😉 Could you please bring back putin’s happy face for a chance to win Mara Lago! Or Mara Island! 🏝️🏖️. With margaritas!
Because projection, misinformation, disinformation, and political agendas.
yup. Amoral leadership lying to gullible supporters who want conspiracies, it’s really that simple. A base who want simplistic explanations that reinforce their prejudices. Truth doesn’t even rate.
To be brief, it’s propaganda designed to keep rural voters red. Ie- “those big city folk don’t care about you.”
To be fair, there is a kernel of truth there.
https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about
The rural folk with the Trump signs in their yards say their way of life is dying, and you smirk and say what they really mean is that blacks and gays are finally getting equal rights and they hate it. But I’m telling you, they say their way of life is dying because their way of life is dying. It’s not their imagination. No movie about the future portrays it as being full of traditional families, hunters, and coal mines. Well, except for Hunger Games, and that was depicted as an apocalypse.
Propaganda makes you believe that one of the two party is your fiend. Meanwhile for the past century both the red and blue party has served elites interests and fuck over everyone else (including the planet). The proof is that you are a peasants and it would take you a couple of minutes just to visualize how much a billion is.
The system is working as intended. A country created by the wealthy, for the wealthy, and controlled by the wealthy.
Having said that the two sides of the same coin is a bunch of bullshit when you see 60+ years of hate and fear propaganda conducted by conservatives.
Making every modern amenity a partisan issue and is also no mistake. It is very clear one side is keeping us from free education, free/cheap healthcare, equality, and a living wage. It is even clearer when they are pushing for more child labor, pollution, racism, and sexism.
You are contradicting yourself.
The system is working as intended. A country created by the wealthy, for the wealthy, and controlled by the wealthy.
It’s not hard to understand, in such a system you don’t make it to the top unless you belong to the wealthy
Not at all, I am just not falling for the two sides of the same coin bullshit invented by the conservatives to further denigrate our government.
There is a serious problem and it is not with the liberal/left/Democratic party. The reason we are in this situation is because the conservatives are garbage people dragging this country down.
There is a serious problem and it is not with the liberal/left/Democratic party. The reason we are in this situation is because the conservatives are garbage people dragging this country down.
The reason we are in this situation is because for centuries if not thousand of years rulers enslaved and beat up people to seize power.
There’s a genocide going on right now where kids are being murdered daily, if you believe there’s not a problem in the current system you are complicit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
This is not ancient history and the US is not unique in its genocidal actions. There is not a country that exists that has not engaged in this behavior.
There are several genocides going on right now.
https://www.genocidewatch.com/countries-at-risk
I know there is a problem. In fact, I gather I know a lot more than you about it. Not disagreeing about that aspect at all.
Having said that we are also experiencing far less genocide than any other time in history. It is weird to say it but things have gotten a lot better although I am sure the Palestinians, for example, would disagree.
It is weird to say it but things have gotten a lot better
For billionares and rulers things keep getting better yes, for everyone else they don’t. Look outside your window or at your bank account then remind yourself that there’s someone chilling in one of their 500f yachts. For the average person in the past decade things have gone south.
Having said that we are also experiencing far less genocide than any other time in history.
Go ahead and compare the genocides perpetrated by parties without serious problems with these of their colleagues from history.
Projection.
Probably for the same kind of reason that “everyone knows” that the corporate media is a “liberal media”.
“The media is liberal!”
“Who told you that?”
“The media.”
To Democrats, “elites” mean your in some top percentile of wealth and income. To Republicans, “elites” means having a college degree.
It means the nerds you shoved in lockers who learned to read and now have successful lives while you scrape by trying to make alimony at a job that would pay a living wage if you didn’t live in a right to work state.
See that’s the elitism. Plenty of bullies made it out and plenty of their victims didn’t. Ruthlessness is profitable and you don’t have to be a good person to go to college.
How exactly is that elitism? You’re specifically arguing against the meritocracy that they consider elitism, all that fancy book-learnin.
Their mascot shits on a golden toilet in his own private country club ffs.
You’re assuming everyone stuck in rural America in a shit job with grievances is a shit person who did it to themselves. A lot of them are, especially the die hard republicans, but plenty had hard choices, or any number of other decent reasons beyond just not being smart or something.
And yeah their mascot is a filthy rich asshole, and a lot of them do suck ass. But also I spend enough time with those people to know plenty of them aren’t terrible but they are sick and tired of being treated like inherently morons for being rural
I get that, but I was that nerd shoved in lockers, and while the Midwest was decent, in the south it was far worse because I wasn’t white.
The south tolerated those assholes a lot, and they were extremely ignorant, and their ignorance was a source of pride for them.
I don’t want to demean the Midwestern red staters in any way, other than they clearly follow the wrong person, but the south is following moloch, their literal antichrist, out of hatred of others, and I’m fine holding them in contempt for that because it’s no better than I would expect for them.
Also, they scream and scream about a Bible they’ve never read, and I say that as someone who went to catholic school, they thought I was lying like I said I memorized the phone book.
That’s not what (((elites))) mean to Republicans.
A lot of times they amp up the dog whistle and say (((global elites))).
To Republicans, “elites” means having a college degree.
Also depending on the context can mean “lives in a city” or “pays a mechanic to fix their car instead of gets their hands dirty” or “doesn’t go to church” or “makes fun of country folks / rural people” or “eats any food that isn’t fried or served in a disposable bag and eaten between 2 buns.”
…But they’re never consistent, b/c they think that Trump, a literal billionaire who lives in a big city, definitely never has gone to church or gotten his hands dirty fixing cars… is somehow not elite.
…I mean… he probably doesn’t eat anything that isn’t fried / between buns, but that’s about it.
It’s incomprehensible / inconsistent.
It’s also how we talk, how we walk, and that we often come from elsewhere and think differently.
So they basically turned anti elitism to anti intellectualism so they can fool their audience.
I mean, I thought we all knew that.
I wonder what kind of people ran on anti-intellectualism in the past? Maybe around the time of UdSSR, or some German leader? Maybe some famous leader in Cambodia as well?
Yep, my comment was more about how this is kind of a tail as old as time thing.
Basically mob mentality.
This is the correct answer to the question the Guardian poses. I’ve lived among them and can 100% confirm this is how they think.
Elites is all about having a college degree and being “book smart” vs their “street smart” or “wise in the ways of man” sort of bullshit charlatans throughout history have used to make up for a lack of critical thinking skills.
It really is the right answer. But I think we can sharpen it if we look at how the media around Democrats elevates and highlights elitism as a quality to be pursued, for example, in a candidate.
A great example of this was the treatment of Pete Buttigieg, and specific media outlets elevation of him to a nationally relevant political actor. Harvard, then Oxford Rhodes scholar then a decade long McKinseyite (that alone should have disbarred him from running for president), then intelligence officer US Navy. He was the definition of “qualified” to the CNN and NPR editorial boards.
But how well had only political bonafides were a failed run for treasurer in Indiana, and a mayoral victory where he garnered all of 10k votes. So the guy has never actually won any significant state or federal elections. Yet in 2020, suddenly this guys is gets treated like a serious contender in the Democratic primary. Why?
Democratically aligned corporate press is obsessed with credentials, and specifically, the kind that comes from “elite” schools and organizations. Partially because they themselves also come from these elite schools and organizations.
We really have become addicted to certifications and tags and qualifiers for everyone because it’s easier to “understand” them at a glance and that’s decided as all you need.
On paper is good enough for far to many, it’s just easier to categorize people and move on.
Being in your categories is the easiest way to automatically think of then as moral and good because they must be, you are. It’s fucked up both parties. Look at Eric Adams and Marco Rubio.
Very true. The Dems could really stand for more blue collar qualifications. Especially if we treated “local union president” half as well as “McKinsey employee”
Accuse your enemies of that which you are guilty.
Because it’s convenient to have bad faith actors sowing discord before any election.
Tankies (sleeper conservatives that they are) can’t rely on logic, merit or hope for a better tomorrow, so they cause as much chaos as possible to their perceived ‘enemies’. This chaos includes the encouragement of unrealistic statements and general cognitive dissonance.
My true thoughts are that they went too far and started to believe their own drivel as generations of hexbears rose and fell and shit themselves into .ml
What does this post or article have to do with “Tankies?” Did you just hop in here to badmouth them without any context? The idea that anyone who opposes Democrats is a conservative is so out of touch. You must live in a world of ghosts, probably ones wearing ushankas and singing the Internationalé. What a strange comment.
Not strange at all. Mostly the people shitting on the libs around here are “tankies” or whatever flavor gets the fascists more points. It’s simple math.
there is not and never has been any historical evidence of a red-brown alliance. Communists, even at the height and horror of Stalinist purges, were never fascist. Fascism is something different, and the urge to conflate the two just makes you seem dangerously uneducated on the subject. No, worse than that, because misunderstanding and miscommunicating the nature of fascism is actually a boon to the fascists! It is in essence no different than when Stalin intentionally mischaracterized social democracy as being “the moderate wing of fascism” and worse than actual Nazism in order to give himself political cover in the lead up to Molotov-Ribbentrop.
So when you deceive yourself and others about the nature of fascism, you are aiding the fascists. So like don’t do that.
But this still has nothing to do with the article or post, talk about living rent-free
there is not and never has been any historical evidence of a red-brown alliance.
He’s not saying there’s a red-brown alliance. He’s saying all these supposed reds are actually browns, or useful idiots.
Apologies for the long post that largely agrees with what you had to say :p To give some background to the uniniated, the theory of ‘Social Facism’ as described gives a historical perspective into so-called ‘red-brown unity’ leading up until WW2.
(anti communist parties described Stalinists as fascist) […] led to mutual hostility between social democrats and communists, which were additionally intensified in 1929 when Berlin’s police, then under control of the SPD (socdem) government, shot down communist workers demonstrating on May Day in what became called Blutmai (Bloody May). That and the repressive legislation against the communists that followed served as further evidence to communists that social democrats were indeed “social fascists”.
The idea of social fascism, that social democrats are “objectively the moderate wing of fascism” as Stalin put it, intensified by SocDem authoritarian anti-left policies, lead to even greater hostility from the Communists against the Liberals than the Nazi’s themselves at the time.
In 1929, the KPD’s paramilitary organisation, the Roter Frontkämpferbund (“Alliance of Red Front-Fighters”), was banned as extremist by the governing social democrats. A KPD resolution described the “social fascists” [social democrats] as the “main pillar of the dictatorship of Capital”. In 1930, Kurt Schumacher of the SPD accused Communists of being “red-lacquered doppelgangers of the Nazis”. In Prussia, the largest state of Germany, the KPD united with the Nazis in unsuccessful attempt to bring down the state government of SPD by means of a Landtag referendum.
So technically, there was a red-brown (Communist-Nazi) alliance within Prussia in order to take down the SocDems, the Comms were obviously more ideologically aligned with socdems but felt they were the main thing preventing progress and thus wanted to speed up their demise.
We all know how collaborating with the Nazi’s turned out:
After Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Party came to power in Germany, the KPD was outlawed and thousands of its members were arrested, including Thälmann. Those events made the Comintern do a complete turn on the question of alliance with social democrats and the theory of social fascism was abandoned. At the Seventh Congress of the Comintern in 1935, Georgi Dimitrov outlined the new policy of the popular front in his address “For the Unity of the Working Class Against Fascism”. This popular front […] The American historian Theodore Draper argued that “the so-called theory of social fascism and the practice based on it constituted one of the chief factors contributing to the victory of German fascism in January 1933”.
It turns out that by the communists temporarily aligning against liberals with the fascists in what today would probably be known as ‘accelerationism’, we headed from social democracy to concentration camps in 10 years.
And as you say, fascism is typically more obvious:
Leon Trotsky argued against the accusations of “social fascism”. In the March 1932 Bulletin of the Opposition, he declared: “Should fascism come to power, it will ride over your skulls and spines like a terrific tank. […] And only a fighting unity with the Social Democratic workers can bring victory”.
And while there are elements of logic to such a conclusion of ‘social fascism’ especially when today you have every ‘social democrat’ or ‘liberal’ capitaluting heavily rightwards and forming alliances with the far-right (France etc.) BUT As you say, and as history has shown, muddying the waters about the true nature of fascism pulls wool over the eyes of those with potential to affect change and prevent the rise true fascism. Which is growing every day.
Karl Popper argued that some radical parties of the era welcomed or turned a blind eye to the weakening of democracy, or saw a dictatorship as a temporary stepping stone to a revolution. quote from Popper “[Communists] even hoped that a totalitarian dictatorship in Central Europe would speed up matters […] Accordingly, the Communists did not fight when the fascists seized power. (Nobody expected the Social Democrats to fight). For the Communists were sure that the proletarian revolution was overdue and that the fascist interlude, necessary for its speeding up, could not last longer than a few months.”
And finally, it reeks of the unfortunate leftist ‘purity test’ behaviour which weakens unity and divides potential allies.
In 1969, the ex-communist historian Theodore Draper argued that the Communists who proposed the theory of social fascism, “were chiefly concerned with drawing a line of blood between themselves and all others to the ‘right’ of them, including the most ‘left-wing’ of the Social-Democrats.”
Anyway, when I read this theory it opened my eyes a tonne to the folly of refusing to collaborate with liberals. While I still believe liberal and center right policy, along with intense anti-left propaganda, are the reason for the rise of fascism today (overton window, ratcheting effect, disillusionment with electoral politics due to ineffective and oppressive governance that only benefits the wealthy).
Despite this by ostracising and refusing to collaborate with liberals we shoot ourselves in the foot by being so obsessed with purity that we reject reality. Perfect is the enemy of good. All progress is good provided it takes us along the right path and does not cut off the path to something greater.
I love this so much.
I didn’t really have the time or energy to go into the supporting logic, for as you’ve just demonstrated its a very involved argument that involves a lot of oft ignored history of the period after the crushing defeat of the German working class uprising (1923, '24) but before the Nazis took power in the wake of the Reichstag fire ('33, '34). Which honestly I’m not great on anyway, I appreciate your insight, slight factual correction that just makes the point even more urgently, and any book recommendations!
So while we are providing clarification and context to the uninitiated, I dug out Trotsky’s definition of fascism from 1932 since we are being so adamant about properly defining it:
At the moment that the “normal” police and military resources of the bourgeois dictatorship, together with their parliamentary screens, no longer suffice to hold society in a state of equilibrium – the turn of the fascist regime arrives. Through the fascist agency, capitalism sets in motion the masses of the crazed petty bourgeoisie [the small business owners basically MAGAs], and bands of the declassed and demoralized lumpenproletariat [working poor who are so exploited and disillusioned they defy their own class interests]; all the countless human beings whom finance capital itself has brought to desperation and frenzy. […] And the fascist agency, by utilizing the petty bourgeoisie as a battering ram, by overwhelming all obstacles in its path, does a thorough job. […] When a state turns fascist, it doesn’t only mean that the forms and methods of government are changed […] but it means, primarily and above all, that the workers’ organizations are annihilated; that the proletariat is reduced to an amorphous state; and that a system of administration is created which penetrates deeply into the masses and which serves to frustrate the independent crystallization of the proletariat.
In my opinion, wrt building coalition between liberals and communists, there tends to be a real failure by all parties, Marxist communists and liberals alike, to orient the alienated individual within the class or ideological milieu. Liberals can really only see the alienated individual; whereas commies, who claim to be materialists, can view the class/ideological superstructure, or sometimes reluctantly the individual, but almost never both at the same time. Mfs never read/don’t understand Theses on Feuerbach and it shows.
Which is to say liberalism and communism can’t really be allies, but individual liberals, who we might call progressives, more concerned with rights and human emancipation than preserving private property, can be won over to the demands of class struggle, especially as the conditions of struggle introduce sharp contradictions into their lives and the lives of the people around them. At this point the demands of their class outweigh the explanations furnished by their ideology and alliances can be forged between members of the fractured liberal or social democratic workers, and the communist/socialists who (hopefully) have prepared the field of struggle for the intensifying conflict.
Tldr: noone has a monopoly on being insufferable and maybe we could try not demonizing each other for like 15 seconds and see each other as rational people doing our best, reacting to rapidly changing conditions, that will result in pretty serious lose/lose final consequences for libs and commies alike if we can’t resist the actual fascists together.
But now I’ve been led away from the topic of the post article, proving that we are doomed to become what we most strongly condemn.
It’s really not that complicated
Because it was always about projection.
The Guardian - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for The Guardian:
MBFC: Left-Center - Credibility: Medium - Factual Reporting: Mixed - United Kingdom
Wikipedia about this sourceSearch topics on Ground.News
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/10/democrats-elites-trump-musk-republicans
This is one of the greatest scams that conservatives get away with IMO, not just in the US but it happens in the UK and other places too. Conservatives get in, go hog wild cutting taxes, selling off public assets and throwing huge contracts to their friends, and then as soon as the other side gets back in they find that they have to now balance the books, the conservatives start complaining and saying they’re the fiscally responsible ones.
It’s literally happening right now in the UK - we just got rid of the Tories finally after about 15 years, and the new Labour government immediately found a £20 billion hole in the economy which they now have to make harsh cuts to sort out, and they’re the ones getting criticized for it by the media.
We need a government report card.
At the end of every administration, we need to compare the national debt and all important factors.
It’s one thing people missed in coming up with democratic systems. If different people take turns to steer the ship then you need to define what their goal is so you can evaluate each.
I’d half agree; they could raise taxes instead of making cuts.
Don’t say this around any conservative. They only believe in cutting taxes.
They always have these “household budget” analogies when it comes to the government, but even in a “household budget” situation one solution to overcoming debt is to find a way to raise your income so you can pay down the debt faster…
That generally also does not go over well in the media.
Conservatives make a mess to their advantage and win/win every time
Sure, because the media is generally profit oriented and therefore aligned with capitalist interests. We need more mutually supported and supportive media and journalism.
To be fair, in this monopolized 2 party system, both parties are owned by pretty much the exact same corporate interests and mega rich. Everything is by design. There is nothing they leave to chance.
not just in the US but it happens in the UK and other places too
Damn. Can’t believe New Labour is getting tarred with accepting soccer tickets, fancy clothes, and vacation packages from British Peer Lord Alli. Seems so unfair. Wish people would stop accusing the Labour government of being corrupt, when they are very obviously following the rules of accepting gifts and definitely not operating on any quid pro quo.
the new Labour government immediately found a £20 billion hole in the economy
New Labour has a set of accounting rules that count investment in capital as an expense and insists on running daily budget surpluses for their operating expenses.
Popping open your household account, making cartoonish bug-eyes, and announcing “We owe $200k on our 30 year mortgage but we only make $80k/year! We’re bankrupt for the next three years until we pay this house off!” This is New Labour accounting. It’s laughable and only ever used as an excuse not to spend any money.
On the flip side, this is the same party that insists on privatizing everything. From Thames Water to British Gas to UK Rail, every once-public service has to be turned over and rented back from the private sector. The Brits pass out these privatization contracts as sinecures, guaranteeing their financial friends huge piles of free no-risk revenues at the expense of the British taxpayer. And then they complain that the country has no money.
That New Labour slid directly into the driver’s seat the Tories left and gunned it isn’t something you can ignore, simply because the party leadership has changed.
Because the Democrats abandoned working class voters in the 80s and 90s to court the professional-managerial class in a pivot towards the center, and the Republicans were able to win over these disaffected blue-collar voters with resentment politics.
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In some categories, but overall Dem voters get more income. I think most wealthy donors skew Republican, which is rational. Why shouldn’t they vote for self-preservation? No one justifies to these wealthy donors that no one wants a handout.
People, regardless of their socioeconomic status, should be taxed appropriately for the resources they use. If your business is generating billions in revenue, and your net worth is multi mill+, you got a lot of benefit from the civilized order of society. That’s basically what your taxes are for. Well, that and human potential is worth investing in as that’s how we got so far here. It would be great to go further instead of boiling to death in some war torn, poverty stricken wasteland, but I digress.
Here’s some data on income by party, I can’t speak to the quality of the source: https://www.thehivelaw.com/blog/average-income-republican-vs-democrat-by-political-party/
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Most elected Democrats had abandoned a working class message by the 90s. Jimmy Carter seems like a socialist by today’s standards, but its important to remember that at the time, he was running on a pivot towards the center and an attempt to distance the party from the New Deal. Ted Kennedy’s primary challenge was a campaign to return to their New Deal principles. Mondale and Dukakis were both moving to center as well, as the party had convinced themselves that Regan’s success meant New Deal politics seemed fiscally irresponsible.
By the time Clinton was in power, the party was essentially a center-right party by their own historical standards. Clinton and the 1993 Congress passed legislation that actively hurt the middle class while helping the managerial and financial class. His deregulation of Wall Street was a gift to investors, while his work requirements for Welfare basically killed the program. Worst of all was NAFTA, which created the largest outsourcing of manufacturing jobs in American history.
Obama at least ran on a progressive platform (which should have proved to Democrats that centrism was not a winning strategy), but he governed like another moderate. He even attempted to pass another NAFTA like trade agreement, the TPP, and Trump successfully won over blue-collar workers by promising to kill that deal. Granted, he also won them over by blaming their economic woes on immigrants, and his opposition to the deal probably had more to do with his racist desire to undermine as many achievements of the first black President as he possibly could, but the TPP would have been another nail in the coffin of American manufacturing jobs.
Anyway, point is, aside from a few progressive hold-outs, the Democrats by-and-large pivoted away from their New Deal roots towards being technocratic centrists whose policies benefit investors and white-collar workers and often hurt the working class. Meanwhile, the Republicans, whose policies are even worse for the working class, are able to create the illusion of being on their side through scapegoating and dog whistles that appeal to blue-collar workers (particularly white blue-collar workers, although not exclusively).
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Well, A) I didn’t say the Democrats had lost the working class. I said that their policies were not targeting the working class. Even this election, Kamala Harris’ stump speeches repeatedly focus on the middle class but make no mention of the working class.
And B) those overall numbers don’t factor in race or geography. The Democrats still do very strongly amongst black Americans because of the legacy of Civil Rights Act and the Republicans’ Southern Strategy, and they are much more likely to live below the poverty line, but the black population is also unevenly distributed throughout the south and in northern urban population centers. Because of the Senate’s structure and the Electoral College, winning white working class voters can be a successful path to power in the Midwest and most of the South, where blue-collar whites can deliver GOP victories. In fact, the Republicans have won white working class voters in 8 of the last 11 elections, and that support handed them the presidency in 6 of them.
That’s why the Republicans have the reputation of being for the working class, and the Democrats don’t. The Republicans are actively working to win working-class whites (and there’s some evidence that Trump is gaining ground with working class black and Latino men), while the Democrats are actively trying to win moderate white-collar voters and assuming their base of working class minority voters will turn out
because US politics is center right vs far right
