By dismantling the apartheid, ending the occupation, getting the fuck on their side of their 1967 border, and recognizing the sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Plus, by handing over their war criminals to the ICC and starting a Truth and Reconciliation process. Throw in paying reparations, if they really want peace.
There. Instantly, 90% of Hamas and Hezbollah support has just evaporated. Their neighbours are ready to normalize relations with them. The vast majority of world public opinion is now solidly behind them.
I’d be quite fine with most of this, all of it if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But, until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen. The majority of Gazans support Hamas and believe they committed no atrocities on October 7th.
if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank
Yes, exactly. Including the control of their borders of course.
until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen
That’s entirely the wrong framing. Without these things happening, whatever it is that you think will be established, it won’t be “peace”, is is only a return to the oppressive status quo ante. It’s a cliché but in this conflict, quite literally “no justice, no peace”. My laundry list above is not a desirable outcome after some imaginary unjust “peace”. It is the precondition for peace. Without dismantling the apartheid, the occupation, etc, you’ll only have a temporary lull in the brutality and they go again.
With the number of rockets Hamas and Hezbollah has launched into Israel during “peacetime” while being supplied by Iran, they’re doing a great job of staying enemies.
Did you know that the Gazan bomb disposal teams are some of the most skilled in the world? The reason for this is so they can disarm and disassemble unexploded Israeli bombs so that the explosives can be repurposed and fired back. So a surprisingly large portion of the explosives that Hamas used were supplied by Israel via their long-term sporadic bombing of Gaza and anything resembling major infrastructure.
Well maybe Israel should stop its brutal, decades-long apartheid campaign that’s pissing off all of its neighbors and pre-dates Hamas by around 50 years.
How many of these brutal wars were started by Israel completely unprovoked, and how many of them were started because Israel’s neighbors F-ed around before finding out?
Arguably, all of them involving Israel were started by Israel. Colonists coming in and buying the farm, then refusing to hire the local non-jews who traditionally worked there, is going to provoke a response. They knew this, and it’s why they formed militias to attack them and use the response as justification to expand militarily. These militias were formed into the IDF when Israel officially became a nation.
Sure, you can also argue that buying up the land and not hiring the locals was “their right” but you can’t really complain when people lose their ability to survive because some foreigners come in and take away their jobs.
Israel has continued this policy of forcing a response from their neighbors and then using this as justification to use much more force to take more territory. Its not happening by accident. It’s a strategic move by Israel to provoke their neighbors, yet somehow people like you say the neighbors should have done nothing. Maybe Israel should do nothing. Who’s justified?
Arguably, all of them involving Israel were started by Israel. Colonists coming in and buying the farm, then refusing to hire the local non-jews who traditionally worked there, is going to provoke a response. They knew this, and it’s why they formed militias to attack them and use the response as justification to expand militarily. These militias were formed into the IDF when Israel officially became a nation.
Sure, you can also argue that buying up the land and not hiring the locals was “their right” but you can’t really complain when people lose their ability to survive because some foreigners come in and take away their jobs.
Israel has continued this policy of forcing a response from their neighbors and then using this as justification to use much more force to take more territory. Its not happening by accident. It’s a strategic move by Israel to provoke their neighbors, yet somehow people like you say the neighbors should have done nothing. Maybe Israel should do nothing. Who’s justified?
Depending on how far back you want to go, the Jews had lived in Israel for a long, long time before even their revolt against Hadrian in 135 AD. As for the first colonists returning to the territory in the 19th and 20th centuries, those Jews were facing persecution in their homelands.
Good job putting peacetime in quotes, because during that “peacetime” Israel was airstriking Gaza and blockading it. These are straight up acts of war and justify and demand retaliation. Also Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets on Israel before October 7th.
Into Lebanese (some consider it Syrian, doesn’t change the dynamic) occupied territory before and after Oct 7th. Gradual escalation (with 80% of those attacks coming from Israeli side) expanded the scale of the northern/southern front to what we see today. Israel has killed 2 orders of magnitude more civilians than Hezballah has and has sought escalation at every stage.
Before Oct 7th, they would exchange fire in occupied Lebanese land and tensions would rise then fizzle out about once a month.
They should… not subject people to Apartheid and ethnically cleanse them. That’d help.
The initial plan of the militants was to seize a luxury hotel in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv and take tourists and foreign ambassadors hostage to exchange them for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli custody.
Also you say Lebanon but what the fuck do you mean by “Lebanon”? They literally had a civil war at the time. Who exactly are you assigning blame to here and why does that excuse Israel expanding their Apartheid and massacres to another country?
Israel should stop occupying territory in violation of dozens of international resolutions and blocking the establishment of a Palestinian state. Belligerent occupiers are in no position to be “provoked” by those who they are occupying. How many wars do the Palestinians get to wage because of the nakba (or countless other massacres) and subsequent colonization of remaining territory?
Israel should stop occupying territory in violation of dozens of international resolutions and blocking the establishment of a Palestinian state. Belligerent occupiers are in no position to be “provoked” by those who they are occupying. How many wars do the Palestinians get to wage because of the nakba (or countless other massacres) and subsequent colonization of remaining territory?
Into Lebanese (some consider it Syrian, doesn’t change the dynamic) occupied territory before and after Oct 7th. Gradual escalation (with 80% of those attacks coming from Israeli side) expanded the scale of the northern/southern front to what we see today. Israel has killed 2 orders of magnitude more civilians than Hezballah has and has sought escalation at every stage.
Before Oct 7th, they would exchange fire in occupied Lebanese land and tensions would rise then fizzle out about once a month.
If Israel de-occupies Palestinian and Lebanese land, stops blockading Gaza, stops blowing up chunks of it’s neighbors, then it removes any moral grounds for them to continue fighting Israel. Instead we’re to believe Israel is the defender when they’ve occupied their neighbors for 50+ years.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
An actual, mutually peaceful solution would be better. Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire. There is no reason to trust them at this point.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
we don’t need to fucking find them, they are open, they give speeches about how starving and killing every Palestinian is a moral good on a daily basis. they ARE the government, who’s going to put them in front of a judge and find them guilty, themselves? you are literally supporting a genocidal terrorist regime.
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has, their acts all seem to be targeting military installations rather than civilian targets. The occupation primarily targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.
I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.
Since Iran is funding and arming Hezbollah and Hamas, how should Israel handle Iran?
By dismantling the apartheid, ending the occupation, getting the fuck on their side of their 1967 border, and recognizing the sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Plus, by handing over their war criminals to the ICC and starting a Truth and Reconciliation process. Throw in paying reparations, if they really want peace.
There. Instantly, 90% of Hamas and Hezbollah support has just evaporated. Their neighbours are ready to normalize relations with them. The vast majority of world public opinion is now solidly behind them.
I’d be quite fine with most of this, all of it if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But, until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen. The majority of Gazans support Hamas and believe they committed no atrocities on October 7th.
Yes, exactly. Including the control of their borders of course.
That’s entirely the wrong framing. Without these things happening, whatever it is that you think will be established, it won’t be “peace”, is is only a return to the oppressive status quo ante. It’s a cliché but in this conflict, quite literally “no justice, no peace”. My laundry list above is not a desirable outcome after some imaginary unjust “peace”. It is the precondition for peace. Without dismantling the apartheid, the occupation, etc, you’ll only have a temporary lull in the brutality and they go again.
Stop making an enemy of all their neighbors with their apartheid/genocide project, would be a good start.
With the number of rockets Hamas and Hezbollah has launched into Israel during “peacetime” while being supplied by Iran, they’re doing a great job of staying enemies.
Did you know that the Gazan bomb disposal teams are some of the most skilled in the world? The reason for this is so they can disarm and disassemble unexploded Israeli bombs so that the explosives can be repurposed and fired back. So a surprisingly large portion of the explosives that Hamas used were supplied by Israel via their long-term sporadic bombing of Gaza and anything resembling major infrastructure.
Impressive feat. But Iran is still aiding and abetting Hamas’s military campaign against Israel.
Well maybe Israel should stop its brutal, decades-long apartheid campaign that’s pissing off all of its neighbors and pre-dates Hamas by around 50 years.
How many of these brutal wars were started by Israel completely unprovoked, and how many of them were started because Israel’s neighbors F-ed around before finding out?
I’m not talking about wars. I’m talking about Israeli apartheid, all of which was and continues to be enacted exclusively by Israel.
Arguably, all of them involving Israel were started by Israel. Colonists coming in and buying the farm, then refusing to hire the local non-jews who traditionally worked there, is going to provoke a response. They knew this, and it’s why they formed militias to attack them and use the response as justification to expand militarily. These militias were formed into the IDF when Israel officially became a nation.
Sure, you can also argue that buying up the land and not hiring the locals was “their right” but you can’t really complain when people lose their ability to survive because some foreigners come in and take away their jobs.
Israel has continued this policy of forcing a response from their neighbors and then using this as justification to use much more force to take more territory. Its not happening by accident. It’s a strategic move by Israel to provoke their neighbors, yet somehow people like you say the neighbors should have done nothing. Maybe Israel should do nothing. Who’s justified?
Arguably, all of them involving Israel were started by Israel. Colonists coming in and buying the farm, then refusing to hire the local non-jews who traditionally worked there, is going to provoke a response. They knew this, and it’s why they formed militias to attack them and use the response as justification to expand militarily. These militias were formed into the IDF when Israel officially became a nation.
Sure, you can also argue that buying up the land and not hiring the locals was “their right” but you can’t really complain when people lose their ability to survive because some foreigners come in and take away their jobs.
Israel has continued this policy of forcing a response from their neighbors and then using this as justification to use much more force to take more territory. Its not happening by accident. It’s a strategic move by Israel to provoke their neighbors, yet somehow people like you say the neighbors should have done nothing. Maybe Israel should do nothing. Who’s justified?
Depending on how far back you want to go, the Jews had lived in Israel for a long, long time before even their revolt against Hadrian in 135 AD. As for the first colonists returning to the territory in the 19th and 20th centuries, those Jews were facing persecution in their homelands.
Did Israel provoke the Suez Crisis? Did Israel provoke the Six-Day War? Or the Yom Kippur War? The 1982 Lebanon War? All of the times that militant groups have attacked Israeli civilians?
You say aiding and abetting like supporting anti-colonial resistance is a bad thing.
Yeah… yeah, I’d say supporting Hamas is bad. Or is there no sacrifice too large for the Resistance?
Good job putting peacetime in quotes, because during that “peacetime” Israel was airstriking Gaza and blockading it. These are straight up acts of war and justify and demand retaliation. Also Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets on Israel before October 7th.
Lol, not being an Israel apologist here, but Hezbollah has been launching rockets at Israel since they were formed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah–Israel_conflict
Educate yourself.
Israel and Lebanon have a long, blood-soaked history. And the claim that Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets before October 7th is false.
Into Lebanese (some consider it Syrian, doesn’t change the dynamic) occupied territory before and after Oct 7th. Gradual escalation (with 80% of those attacks coming from Israeli side) expanded the scale of the northern/southern front to what we see today. Israel has killed 2 orders of magnitude more civilians than Hezballah has and has sought escalation at every stage.
Before Oct 7th, they would exchange fire in occupied Lebanese land and tensions would rise then fizzle out about once a month.
Lebanon is by no means innocent in this. These invasions haven’t been happening unprovoked. The 1978 invasion was because of a massacre of civilians, and the 1982 war started because of an attempted assassination on Israel’s PM. Should Israel just let their people get slaughtered?
They should… not subject people to Apartheid and ethnically cleanse them. That’d help.
Also you say Lebanon but what the fuck do you mean by “Lebanon”? They literally had a civil war at the time. Who exactly are you assigning blame to here and why does that excuse Israel expanding their Apartheid and massacres to another country?
And would you prefer I had specified the PLO in that post? A major power in the area?
Israel should stop occupying territory in violation of dozens of international resolutions and blocking the establishment of a Palestinian state. Belligerent occupiers are in no position to be “provoked” by those who they are occupying. How many wars do the Palestinians get to wage because of the nakba (or countless other massacres) and subsequent colonization of remaining territory?
This has all started because of an initial attempt at genocidal war against Israel and, following that, decades of attacks on the Jewish people.
Israel should stop occupying territory in violation of dozens of international resolutions and blocking the establishment of a Palestinian state. Belligerent occupiers are in no position to be “provoked” by those who they are occupying. How many wars do the Palestinians get to wage because of the nakba (or countless other massacres) and subsequent colonization of remaining territory?
They have a long blood soaked history that had mostly ended with the second Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 2006 before restarting last year.
And Hezbollah was the one that restarted it, in solidarity with Hamas.
Yes I do know that, but don’t claim they’ve been shooting rockets at Israel for the last 20 years.
So the statement that Hezbollah specifically has been continuously launching rockets for 20 years is false and I could have worded that better. Fair enough. But there’s still been quite a lot of attacks on Israel originating from Lebanon since 2006.
Into Lebanese (some consider it Syrian, doesn’t change the dynamic) occupied territory before and after Oct 7th. Gradual escalation (with 80% of those attacks coming from Israeli side) expanded the scale of the northern/southern front to what we see today. Israel has killed 2 orders of magnitude more civilians than Hezballah has and has sought escalation at every stage.
Before Oct 7th, they would exchange fire in occupied Lebanese land and tensions would rise then fizzle out about once a month.
Getting the hell out of all 67 occupied land
Dislocating over 9 million people is no small feat. Where would they go? Or should they just lay down and die?
They said leave all 1967 occupied areas.
You responded with the entire population of Israel.
And I later asked how this will appease all these other actors that just want to wipe Israel off the map. How will that happen?
You mean you assumed facts not in evidence.
Does that make Iran, Hezbollah, and Hamas any more likely to establish lasting peace with Israel if they surrender a tiny sliver of land?
If Israel de-occupies Palestinian and Lebanese land, stops blockading Gaza, stops blowing up chunks of it’s neighbors, then it removes any moral grounds for them to continue fighting Israel. Instead we’re to believe Israel is the defender when they’ve occupied their neighbors for 50+ years.
What percentage of these attacks on Israel is justified to you? Particularly the ones involving killing civilians.
Read again I said the land colonized after 67 so the israelis aren’t moving anywhere
Oh, you mean this? If they’re such filthy colonizers, how is that going to change the situation enough to stop the violence?
All the post 67 land are considered occupied why Palestinians should give up their land?
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
It is but most of us are not heartless people who would like to kick out 8 millions people
An actual, mutually peaceful solution would be better. Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire. There is no reason to trust them at this point.
Because they’ll stop being filthy colonizers.
I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.
It is.
So, should they all just leave or die? Or will handing over a tiny sliver of land magically appease Hezbollah, which insists that Israel must be destroyed, Hamas, which was founded with the goal of destroying Israel,, and Iran, which wants to completely erase Israel?
to be fair, it’s much easier if you just annex and slaughter the fucking browns who are there
Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism. Do you want to go to bat for them?
Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?
Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?
we don’t need to fucking find them, they are open, they give speeches about how starving and killing every Palestinian is a moral good on a daily basis. they ARE the government, who’s going to put them in front of a judge and find them guilty, themselves? you are literally supporting a genocidal terrorist regime.
And apparently the other three genocidal terrorist regimes are better than them?
Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.
Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel are currently acting as terrorist states/groups. That isn’t up for debate, because it’s objective reality.
I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has, their acts all seem to be targeting military installations rather than civilian targets. The occupation primarily targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.
I guess Oct 7 was just a figment of our collective imaginations.
I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.