Our species were shaped as omnivores, meaning we have a choice of what we want to eat. Don’t forget where we don’t live anymore: the jungle. Just because we used to live in caves doesn’t mean we should live in caves now. Also, they didn’t have McDonald’s in the jungle.
Tfw keeping animals in cages and slaughtering them after 6 months of misery from the comfort of your 21st century life is different from being a feral animal living in the wilderness
Vegans: exist
People like OP: how dare you make your own choices about your own life that don’t hurt anyone in any way whatsoever
I’m not even vegan, and I find that this meme both grossly misrepresents what veganism is about, and seems mean spirited.
eh, veganism doesn’t work for my relatively unique anatomy (if I eat that much fiber I go to the hospital) but were it not for that I’d probably be eating a plant based diet. people tend to know what works for them, and i’m not going to judge them for their dietary choices. Except foie gras.
Ah yes, the anti-vegan. Nearly as annoying as the vegan.
I have the same advice for you as I have for vegans: let people eat what they want to eat, mind your business, and keep your preferences to yourself unless you’re asked.
That said there is some irony here because you’re framing this as unreasonable, but we do this all the time with other humans. As an outsider you should treat members of a group differently than they treat each other - unless you’re saying white people should be allowed to drop N bombs lol
does this look natural to u?
I can side with the vegans that the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But eating meat in of itself is not wrong, that is what is natural
If you prefer to live a natural life, be my guest. Go ahead, live by your logic as you expect from others. Hunt, kill, and process your own food ;)
There are plenty of things that are ‘natural’ that are wrong to do, why is eating meat any different?
That’s a personal choice that people are allowed to make for themselves.
That misses the question a bit, no? Everything that is wrong to do is a personal choice. It’s not relevant to whether or not it should be done
Not really, some things are objectively bad and wrong and other things are merely subjective.
The problem we’re having here are people who hold their subjective beliefs very strongly are then adamant that it makes said beliefs objective, just because they believe them.
Killing someone who’s done nothing to you and doesn’t want to die is pretty objectively bad.
Yes, killing other people is objectively bad. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Could you tell me how you measured that badness and how I can repeat the experiment?
What is the ‘objective’ source of your morality?
There is none. It’s just my view based on how people see things. You’re allowed to not agree, it doesn’t have to be combative.
even things like killing being bad is not objective in my opinion, it just simply stems from our minds and societies’ process of growth through natural selection.
We believe that killing is bad only because we share the majority of their DNA and we are close genetically to what we’re killing. It was evolutionarily incentivised to not kill those that are genetically close, as they and we share common ancestors from which such thoughts evolved.
this is imo why we value humans more than other animals, animals more than vegetables and relatives over strangers. Friends being valued more than strangers make sense as well, as they share ideas in the place of the shared genome.
in a wider scope none of this matters anyway, our lives and deaths are irrelevant to the universe and our lives don’t actually matter outside what our minds tell us.
Just to clarify I’m not saying that we should go around killing people, just that objectivity isn’t real in morality
Are the animals also allowed a choice in the matter?
See this is what I told people when they found out I had sex with my dog, and they said I was crazy and abusive! Like, it’s my own choice!
>inb4 some child left behind replies with “are you equating eating meat for sustenance with rape?”
Yes. You could eat something else for sustenance. The reason you choose meat is because it’s a more enjoyable experience for you, despite the inherent harm. That sounds similar to another topic I mentioned in this comment
Homosexuality has been observed among a great many species, particularly birds and mammals.
What where we talking about again?
Killing and eating your children has been observed among a great many species, particularly reptiles and mammals.
What where we talking about again?
Eh, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t at one point or that it can’t be part of our reproductive strategy in the future. I’d even say that murder and cannibalism are very normal aspects of our species.
E: I guess I’m getting downvoted for seemingly pulling that out of my ass. But I recommend the book Dinner with a Cannibal: The Complete History of Mankind’s Oldest Taboo by Caroline A. Travis-Henikoff. It’s a serious look at how cannibalism shaped our cultures and evolution.
You’re probably getting downvoted (I didn’t just fyi) because it wasn’t really relevant to the discussion. No one’s disputing if cannibalism is natural, I was just trying to point out that killing and eating children is natural and yet still morally wrong to do.
What were you hoping to achieve with this? You sure showed them, not all natural activities are bad. Unfortunately, they didn’t say that. You’re arguing against nobody
Yes, but most people in the west don’t have the option to eat meat that are not from the meat industry.
That is exactly why veganism is attractive in the west.
Exactly as a vegan ex explained it to me.
Murder and rape are also “natural.”
Yo this seems to be a bad take
I think something that defines humanity is that we really try not to follow the “rules of nature”, ie. the rule of the stronger over the weaker
Yeah, I wash shocked to find out that Squirrels hunted and ate smaller mice when they felt the urge.
Almost all herbivores are opportunistic carnivores. Cows are known to eat rats found in the hay. Horses sometimes gobble down a chick if they feel like it.
All these strict rules people believe about biology were prescribed by scholars of old who believed in a perfect creation where everything had its place, but reality is very messy.
Carnivores, not cannibals lol
All cannibals are carnivores but not all carnivores are cannibals.
Thanks 😅
99% of vegans dont say eating meat in itself is wrong and this bullshit narrative needs to stop
Edit: I wrote “in itself” to make it especially clear, but it seems people are skipping that part. The act of eating meat can not be evil, carnivorous animals do it for survival. The context is always what matters.
I would go as far as to say that most vegans wouldn’t have a moral problem with eating roadkill. The physical act of eating meat is only harmful to an animal if it’s still alive while you’re eating it. The problem is the part before that, where you paid someone to hurt it
You haven’t been here long, have you?
Youre saying vegans want to stop animals from eating other animals? I dont think so.
🤣 go to the Lemmy vegan community and say that. I’m sure you’ll easily get 99 upvotes and only a single downvote
It’s all about assumed context. If you ask that question in English on the internet, most readers assume you’re talking about in the US, or failing that, in a developed country in the West. Therefore if you buy a pound of beef, it’s from a factory farm.
They’re not going to assume you’re a scavenger harvesting meat from already dead caribou in the artic.
The majority of humans don’t scavange meat from already dead animals, even in poorer countries wtf
Soy Salvadoreño y nadie en mi familia ni los vecinos ni el pueblo estaban comiendo animales muertos ni cuando tenían zapatos. Chele morongon, que crees tan bajo de los pobres???
Incredible that you were able to mental gymnastics what I said into an attack on poor people and you assumed I can read Spanish.
I wish you well in your mental health crisis.
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Not all English speakers are from the “west”, since it’s a lingua franca.
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You literally put in that the only option in developed countries is factory farmed meat, which is also not true. There’s even European countries where the factory farming of the USA isn’t allowed, and plenty of developing countries where it’s encouraged.
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you imply by saying only developed countries have this option, as if developing countries don’t, and for some reason bring up fucking scavanging as one of developing countries alternatives? Really? You think that lowly of them that just classic old ranching didn’t come to your mind??? The fuck dude. You just pulled a “those kids in Africa” or “the doctor is the male nurse” moment even if you didn’t mean to. You clearly haven’t traveled much.
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we were talking about chickens not beef.
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I can go to a conservative community and say liberals have horns and get the same result. It proves nothing.
Pretty horrifying if you let yourself think of it.
What ever horror humanity has done, we are still holding the beer of invertebrates.
And yet nature’s is is not a justification for aught. The fruit of the tree of wisdom (mythically) gave us empathy that we may live in harmony with neighbors, and in the late game, we have learned the imperative to see value in the fallow wilds.
A century ago, a vegan diet for humans as extremely difficult, possibly impossible. And to quote Saruman the forests will burn in the fires of industry! And they have.
We are not a vegan culture today because the food industry focuses on sales and profits, not on nutrition and health.
Though to be fair our massive land-hungry industrial farms will affect the biomes around them regardless of whether we grow plants or ranch livestock. Veganism is part of a solution towards a more harmonious civilization, but misses several pieces.
What the crap is this response?
Nature according to people who use that argument
Well if the ants can do it, why can’t we?(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation, and even had my own chicken in the past before I couldn’t anymore for eggs. Now I just pay the premium and researched which were the most ethical eggs in the store available. Happy hens make better eggs anyway. I’m just pointing out we’re not the only ones that raise animals for consumption in nature).
Why would what ants do have relevancy to what we should do?
It tracks the logic of the meme then counterpoint, this is the counterpoint to the counterpoint.
Those ants are farming aphids. They keep them in close quarters. Ants are nature. Ergo the meme
Everything is nature. But which closed quarters are they kept?
The ones where of the aphid strays too far from the closed in pack it becomes an instant snack (hey that rhymes).
At least we cook our chickens first (/s)
ants can do it, why can’t we?
(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation
lol. Classic carnism.
You vegan? Apparently y’all are fine with meat too according to some:
I invented a fictional society for stories in which you are allowed to buy and consume meat, but only if you have a “carnivore’s medallion”. The only way to obtain one is to have witnesses observe you personally slaughter a living being (eg, a chicken) with no assistance.
Ideologically, seems like a good way to put friction on meat obsessions and get people to think about it.
Isn’t this just hunting?
No assistance would be no guns, no bows, no knives, no traps, right?
Literally using your bare hands or something you find on the ground.
I mean humans have always used tools but sure, you could take a chicken bare handed. Fish might be easier for a first go as I have seen a few people catch fish out of the water bare-handed after a few tries
Well, hunting involves the whole orange vests, ensuring legal permission, stalking an animal, etc. The idea would be if this world has hunters, any of them certified as a witness can get their colleagues a medallion without going the whole chicken route.
But obviously, most people who eat meat today don’t hunt. So they would need to go through the experience of taking life once before reaping the benefit.
I like this idea. We’re raising chickens and probably rabbits this spring. If you’re going to eat meat, you should face the reality of the life you are consuming.
Sounds interesting.
90% alive today would not eat meat if they had to kill. You can grow up used to it of course.
If they went to live naked in the woods and used their apex predator canines to tear out a deer’s jugular, I’m not judging.
As much as I admire the morality and overall health of vegetarian/vegan folks, I would also super respect anyone who got all their protein by monstering whole live mice that they caught by hand.
I’d support a “you can eat all the meat you can catch and kill with your bare hands” diet.
Our ancestors have been using sharp sticks, heavy sticks, and sharp rocks since they could walk upright, so I’d support that, too.
Well… I’ll allow a sharp rock but only hand chipped.
I’m vegetarian and my partner is vegan but neither of us are strictly against the “hunter and gatherer” approach.
Where I live traditional hunting is almost nonexistent, but fishing and other ocean-based “hunting” (crabs, crays, oysters etc) is super popular. I’ve considered taking up spearfishing as it’s more intentional than throwing in a hook and dragging up whatever, and requires more (in my opinion) skill and nerve to pull off successfully. But even if I actually caught something the thought of cleaning it puts me off and I’d more than likely ruin it and waste a life for nothing.
No issues with anyone that can fairly catch and prepare their own meat for themselves, but I’ll stick to my tofu and seitan for now.
IMHO traditional hunting isn’t a problem at all. It’s sustainable and the animal gets a real life and a respectful death.
I’m not gonna do it myself but I’m not going to tell some Inuit that his ancestors were all wrong.
Hell yeah
Great, now I have to replace all my beef with veal.
Vegans and vegetarians are not often more healthy than meat eaters. In fact a lot of them subsist mostly on junk food and ultra processed shit.
I dunno about their morals. For me it depends on whether they are opposed to meat because they think it’s murder (absurd notion: see op) or because they opposed the treatment of living animals in industrial meat farms, which is the real issue.
OP’s argument is far more absurd than its strawman.
There is not only a treatment problem, but also that livestock eats a lot of calories that could be used elsewhere
Are you gonna eat all those metric tons of corn that are produced to feed the cows? Because I sure as fuck won’t.
I understand your argument but I think that it is just one way of looking at it and it is still more focused on human welfare rather than sentient life form welfare. Because of that I think the scale of meat production and the treatment is the problem. In a perfect society people would buy a cow to eat per year per 2 people in the household and we would have far more human treatment of a sentient species and they could be afforded good lives and painless deaths.
Life by itself has no value, what is valuable is to what extent that life can be enjoyed.
However you gotta justify your choices I guess.
I just don’t think life by itself has any value, nor that death in itself is tragic. Life for me is valuable so much as you have the ability to enjoy it, and I think it to be the same for all sentient beings. But the reality is we are all interlinked and dependent on one another, we need to eat one another to survive. And so I don’t believe that animals dying is a tragedy in itself, I think an animal living in agony and then dying painfully is the real tragedy. We can eat them but we should have them live like kings before we eat them, in honor of their sacrifice.
Veganism isn’t about respect for nature. It is a philosophy and way of living against animal cruelty and exploitation.
Congratulations on a legit shitpost.
For me it’s 70% about trying to do something about climate crisis and 30% wanting to eat healthier
Whoosh.
E: For those downvoting, remember this is a shitpost and some level of inaccuracy is almost required. It’s the shit part of the post. Like, c’mon guys…
Vegans have to deal with arguments like this but unironically on the daily. That hits a nerve, wether it’s meant as a shitpost or not. Don’t take it personally.
And it gotten so bad, that some people will accuse you being a vegan if you’re not doing keto/carnivore diet, and thus an extremely militant and unpleasant one.
Mayhaps it is the vegans who need to avoid taking things personally
Yeah, it’s totally unreasonable to get tired of hearing the same shitty comments and warmed over “jokes” every day.
It’s a shitpost on a shitpost community and they’re in here taking it like it’s a personal attack. They’re clearly the ones who need to calm the fuck down in this scenario lol
The fact that it’s such an old, overused, and mostly not even correct only enhances its status as a shitpost. That’s what they’re all about
Calling it “jokes” and shitposting is the chickenshit’s ratfuck way of saying inflammatory things while attempting to avoid natural consequences. If you want to be an asshole to strangers on the Internet then at least have a spine about it.
It can be both
I’d agree with both
I wonder how people arguing with them know they are vegans… 🤔
Ooh I know that one! They are in a social situation that involves food and the vegan politely declines an animal product. Then they make an anti vegan joke and the vegan politely disagrees. Have been there many times.
Really? Because I have seen quite a few times vegan claiming that eating meat is a “murder” when people were trying to enjoy their steaks.
Here on Lemmy one idiot even claimed that cutting sheep wool or something similar is a sexual assault
You know mate you get people with extreme opinions in all walks of life.
No doubt about it, but I am yet to see someone who eats meat calling for vegans to be forcibly fed meat - and I have seen vegans saying that eating meat should be forbidden.
I’ve seen quite a few times black people have abused welfare programs. Usually they’re posted under conservative accounts, and I get flamed in the comments for pointing out that these are videos posted by someone with an agenda who wants their audience to think certain things about certain groups of people without providing actual data on the subject
Do you think maybe some of the videos of vegans being douchebags that you’ve seen have been posted by someone with an agenda who wants their audience to think certain things about certain groups of people without providing actual data on the subject?
Have you seen how wool is actually collected? It’s quite violent.
Have you seen how wool is actually collected?
Yes, in a shearing shed and not on youtube.
It is not violent when done correctly, and the best shearers in the industry who can smoothly and quickly sheer a sheep without injury are highly sought after.
Are you one of the idiots claiming sheep are sexually attacked during wool cutting?
Here’s a video on wool, but content warning, it is graphic despite blurring.
Is wool cutting a sexual assault according to you?
Have you ever tried to not eat in front of people ever? Turns out it’s pretty hard to do. Sometimes, if you’re nice to people, you get invited to go out to eat to a place. Often those places have no vegan options, and you have to explain why you can’t eat there so people don’t just think you’re blowing them off constantly. We don’t just go around telling everyone we’re vegan like all the hate memes like to say.
Most vegans I’ve met, myself included, don’t pick fights with people about veganism. We just live by example. It’d be cool if more people went vegan, but arguing with people about doing it doesn’t help. Doing that is like trying to push religion on people or make people experience empathy. It isn’t easy to go vegan (getting easier at least). Food is tied to a lot of people’s culture who have a hard time relearning how to cook/eat and make generational recipes or comfort foods they’ve always eaten.
Tell them to find a vegan inclusive place next time and go anyway, the animal is already dead and being a patron this one time to satisfy a friend and have a good time is fine
the animal is already dead
Never heard this one before. I think I’ll use it next time someone says that jerkin it to child porn is wrong. I mean, the harm is already done, right?
You also have to keep in mind that it sucks to be a vegan sharing a meal with an omni. Even with access to plant-based options, we’re still required to be surrounded by what we see as gore, and people consuming gore.
You know how smokers can’t smell smoke as well as nonsmokers? When I stopped consuming animals I was surprised to find that all meat, no matter how fresh, smells rotten. And everybody who consumes animals smells faintly like rotting corpses - especially during and right after eating.
By putting a post on the interwebs making fun of them and waiting for them to arrive? Not what you are implying, but also a quite effective method.
Lmao. Look at OPs comments. They actually believe this shit. Based on all the other shitposts they post here and all throughout lemmy, they probably picked it up on reddit or some other trash site, thought it was funny, and came here to share.
Imagine making this literal exact comment under a post about black people committing a bunch of crime
“Remember this is a shitpost, and some level of inaccuracy is almost required. It’s the shit part of the post” under a 13/50 meme
We’re destroying the Amazon for cattle but haha birds eat rodents lmao gottem
I’ll take “things actual vegans never say” for $500!
it’s not even a contradiction. One can respect something and not emulate it.
I for one have great respect for the ocean, and the brave people who risk their lives sailing across it. I’m fine here in kansas lol
I feel like this is the “attack helicopter” joke of veganism
Isn’t that every joke on veganism?
