- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
So the thing is classical liberals were (and are) capable of a lot of damage without Fascism. Fascism is a specific ideology. Not the suffering people are capable of creating. It’s important to understand that your normal democracy is perfectly capable of creating mass suffering.
Woa, hey now. Too close. I think I’m going to have to back up a truckload of apologia. BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP - is it there? Is it up to the line? Good.
Unloads why republics should be ethnically pure, but spun in a way that vaguely unsharps the truths jagged edge, while pining for a time gone by and fear mongering to whatever would be mob that could dawn balaclavas and facemasks to terrorize local neighborhoods with bigoted chants and flags in hand.
I say no, fascist, back to hell with you - and stay there. That is your home, that is where you should stay, forever and ever and ever - and if for some reason they should be let back out, it’s up to the entirety of the human species to slap them straight back down to the depths that they came from.
Give me liberty, or give me dead fascists - because the latter has a tendency to produce the former.
None of that is fascism. It’s just run of the mill liberalism.
Same difference, just one has a smile and bright colors.
While not exclusive to it, they are elements of fascism.
It’s funny that we have all these lists and essays and books on how fascist ideology and policy is a confluence of many such elements, yet people still act as tough “is this person/party/state fascist?” is a simple yes or no question with no gray area.
There’s a joke that if you ask 10 people to define fascism, you’ll get 10 different answers.
It’s an imprecise term whose definition changes with every author who makes a try of it. Even the more popular lists of traits like Eco’s or Paxton’s have a lot of issues and contradictions which ppl have pointed out.
Any posts that even mention fascism always devolve into ppl trying and failing to agree on its definition, the point of this deflective practice enabling ppl to uphold their own liberal democracies as being sacred and less genocidal.
Its arguable that its better to define them by the intent of the ideology rather than just their outcomes.
Anyone downvoting this, should be able to explain why what the the US and European powers did to Africa, Asia, and the americas during the 1700-1900s, was any better or fundamentally different than what fascist formulations from 1920-1945 did. And those atrocities were all done using a far more stable form of government: bourgeois parliamentarism / liberal democracy.
People really need to read Losurdo’s - Liberalism, a counter-history. Liberals invented the slave trade, and the victorian holocausts. The only difference between them and the fascists, are that they’re far better at colonialism and genocide than the fascists were.
I keep trying to tell people classical liberals were bastards. There’s this perception that just because we can vote that means we can’t be the bad guys. It’s an ideological catechism that actually fits with the above picture. If Fascism is just whenever mass suffering and death is perpetrated but also World War 2 non voting systems run by strong men then it gives the modern person living in a democracy permission to stop paying attention. After all they can vote and their guy would never.
We need to get this through people’s heads, stop putting flashy words on human rights violations and start holding leaders accountable. Because a culture of not being accountable is how you get actual Fascism.
Yes I know my enemies. They’re the teachers that taught me to fight me. Compromise. Conformity. Assimilation. Submission. Ignorance. Hypocrisy. Brutality. The Elite… all of which are American dreams…
All of which are American dreams…
All of which
when I think of fascism I first think of America, then Nazi Germany
Not that Nazi Germany wasn’t far worse but America is a right now thing, not an 80 years ago thing.
For me it’s Germany Italy Spain USA Portugal
Germany and Italy are making good progress to make it back onto the list
Id say Italy had a Donald Trump 15 years ago.
USA 1941:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute
The German Nazis loved the whole salute to the flag thingy.
Also Henry Ford - The International Jew
Also American Eugenics SocietyHot take: forcing children to pledge allegiance should be more concerning than the exact posture they are ordered to make while doing so.
Didn’t they quickly stop this after it became the Nazis favorite thing?
They only changed it in 1942, which is 9 years after Hitler rose to power and 3 years before his reign ended.
The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
When the United States entered WWII, the future head of the CIA, Allen Dulles, bemoaned that his country was fighting the wrong enemy. The Nazis, as he explained, were pro-capitalist Aryan Christians, whereas the true enemy was godless communism and its resolute anti-capitalism. After all, the U.S. had, only some 20 years prior, been part of a massive military intervention in the U.S.S.R., when fourteen capitalist countries sought—in the words of Winston Churchill—to “strangle the Bolshevik baby in its crib.” Dulles understood, like many of his colleagues in the U.S. government, that what would later become known as the Cold War was actually the old war, as Michael Parenti has convincingly argued: the one they had been fighting against communism since its inception.
Never forget, the fruit of the tree of capitalism is fascism.
Capitalism unrestrained and left to do its thing, as it has, always leads to fascism. Fascism is the takeover of the state by the capitalists.
This is why fascism is blooming all over the western world. The global capitalist economy is simply in full bloom sitting on entirely captured nation states and fruiting.
The fruit being concentration camps, war, poverty, and scapegoating. Anything to blame literally anyone and everything else for all the inhuman malice the capitalists are doing to attempt to satiate their unquenchable greed.
If anyone still cares about maybe not ending the world for humanity, the capital markets must be destroyed, and speculative investment by passive robber barons not actively participating in laboring to produce products and services must be outlawed. But don’t worry, we’ll fade into the oblivion of greed made climate change out of cowardice. We’ll probably be grateful to die to that after the Fascists have had their fun.
Fascism is the takeover of the state by the capitalists.
What. Capitalism is already the takeover of the state by capitalists. The state apparatus is just the means by which the dominant class exerts its power.
It is inevitable that capitalists will conquer their state, but with constant vigilance, for a time, capitalism can and is used as an engine to serve society, so long as it is heavily regulated and hobbled. The Nordic nations for example.
It’s when the capitalists begin to be allowed to influence their government, and convince the people THEY can live larger than their neighbors if it weren’t for all the social equity evil government enforces, capitalism’s signature siren call.
The Nordic countries still have free to roam policies. Capitalism here capturing their own regulators and being allowed to warp public opinion with blatant self serving lies through for profit media pulpits make some Americans eager to shoot other Americans.
I’m not for capitalism at all because it eventually leads here, to fascism, and eventually someone in power will be dumb or corrupt enough to let their guard down. But we let our capitalists conquer our government, as have several western nations. And here we are.
Nope. The Nordic countries are still controlled by capitalists, they (akd most of western Europe as well) just have given the workers some welfare policies in order to appease them and stop any revolutionary ideas. It’s no coincidence that these policies were in place while the Eastern bloc was around and they began to dismantle the welfare state as soon as the USSR fell and they felt they could get away with it.
(Disclaimer: I’m not saying that the welfare state is evil, and that we’d be better with the shitty US way of doing things)
It is inevitable that capitalists will conquer their state
This I disagree. While we’re seeing it keep winning and winning, and we might be put through all sorts of unimaginable hell’s as it keeps winning, but human societies have been here before. A lot, in fact. People like to point at Mao’s communist China and how bad that was, without knowing about the capitalist warlord China that preceeded it. Conquering the state by their means, such as violence or compromising/begging in grand halls? No, we’ll never win, but nature always wins, it is the one true God we’re all at mercy to. Back in the day of native central-american hyper-capitalism/imperialism/monarchism such as the Mayans, Aztec’s, etc. where the population was literally everyone being enslaved to worship and human sacrifices, salt mines and pyramid building. While we don’t exactly know how it happened (probably plague, it’s always plague) but what is evident is that they consciously rejected hierarchy, dispersed into thousands of different tribes across the Americas, practicing amazingly complicated distributions of land and trade amongst eachother, totally free from any central forms of leadership but a series of central comittee’s, consciously rejecting individualism, consciously rejecting laws in favour of reason, consciously rejecting arbitrary authority, consciously choosing a discussion over coffee and tobacco before resorting to war, even consciously giving preferential treatment to slaves they captured. Instead of labouring over pyramids and mines, they built social housing literal fucking palaces that thanks to modern archaeology tech has unearthed these things by the hundreds of thousands. And even then, by the time all that was so ancient it was all buried and overgrown, when the Europeans first came over and saw the garden forests they’ve maintained for millenia, the remarkable intelligence displayed by people who couldn’t write or didn’t wear pants, that women had autonomy! It was quite enlightening to those Europeans, so much so that they wrote plays that questioned European authority through sock puppets and fictional natives used as vehicles to promote ideas such as liberty, freedom, and atheism, without being imprisoned or executed for heresy. It was so popular, so was tobacco and coffee, upon which these certain Natives would come and speak in these French salons, the very same ones that great European Enlightenment thinkers frequented. While European culture has yet to assimilate to (Native) American culture, it has been reeling since, and the European ideaology of Kings has been shaken ever since.
Keep pushing, act as if you’re already free.
I get the frustration with unrestrained capitalism and the real harm it can do—wealth concentration, exploitation, and rampant inequality are major issues that can breed extremist movements. However, to claim fascism is an inevitable “fruit” of capitalism ignores a whole host of other historical, cultural, and political factors that shape authoritarian regimes. There are plenty of capitalist societies that have never slipped into fascism because democratic institutions, social safety nets, and regulations acted as guardrails.
It’s also important to remember that while corporations can capture political systems, it takes more than greed to sustain a fascist state—there’s often a strong dose of nationalism, militarism, and scapegoating of minorities involved. Lumping all of these under “capitalism leads directly to concentration camps” oversimplifies a complex issue. Yes, we should criticize harmful capitalist excesses, but we need to be precise in how we analyze the broader political environment that actually fosters fascist ideologies.
You left off Hitler being impressed by Henry Ford.
Being very impressed by US segregation laws too.
The nazi’s eugenics programs were copy-pasted from California’s even, they were explicit about that.
And US scientific racism too
From a lemmygrad post on fascism
The western left’s use of the term fascism, is borderline white-supremacist at this point. Fascism was a form of colonialism that died by the 1940s, and is only allowed to be demonized in public discourse, because it was a form of colonialism directed also against white europeans. It was defeated, and Germany / Italy / Japan reverted to the more stable form of government for colonialism (practiced by the US, UK, France, the Netherlands, Australia, etc): bourgeois parliamentarism.
British, european, and now US colonizers were doing the exact same thing, and killing far more people for hundreds of years in the global south, yet you don’t hear ppl scared of their countries potentially "adopting parliamentary democracy”. They haven’t changed, and their wealth is still propped up by surplus value theft from the super-exploitation of hundreds of millions of low-paid global south proletarians.
This is why you have new leftists terrified that the UK or US or europe “might turn fascist!!”, betraying that the atrocities propagated by those empires against the global south was and is completely acceptable.
Make no mistake about it: parliamentary / bourgeois democracy is not only a more stable form of government, it’s also far more effective at carrying out colonialism, and killing millions of innocent people.
This is why you have new leftists terrified that the UK or US or europe “might turn fascist!!”, betraying that the atrocities propagated by those empires against the global south was and is completely acceptable.
While the criticism is on point, I think you’re underselling the legitimate dire fear modern leftists have when they see the brutality of the periphery returning home. We have to recognize that - individually - we’re incredibly weak in the face of a mobilized police state. And we have every reason to be horrified of The Jakarta Method being visited on LA or Atlanta or Houston, particularly if we’re members of that domestic political underclass so often targeted for abuse.
Any opposition must be a unified and organized resistance. But we are also plagued by mass surveillance, structural alienation, and a profound sense of vulnerability cultivated over decades of “War On” maximalist state propaganda. So we’re feeling weak, we don’t know who we can trust, and we see this horrifying inevitability cresting over our heads like a tsunami.
This isn’t a betrayal of comrades abroad but a reflection of our own dismal moral, disunity, and despair. It represents one more hurdle for a modern western left to overcome and should be received as such, rather than used as a bludgeon to degrade left-wing moral even further.
Far better to be awake and aware and justifiably afraid of the threat of fascism than blind to it as the unaligned, compromised by it as the liberals, or enthusiastically participatory as the conservatives.
I think you’re underselling the legitimate dire fear modern leftists have when they see the brutality of the periphery returning home.
Liberal democracies have historically been as brutal to their domestic populations as any historical fascist formulation. You can look at how the US treated (and still treats) it’s internal colonies / minorities. Nazi Germany explicitly wanted to carry out in eastern europe, what the US successfully carried out against native peoples, and failed.
Even outside of internal colonies, if you look at how the US or Britain treated its workers or its poor of their own races(they arguably entirely defeated its domestic working class movement, rebased their countries on finance capital, and exported class struggle to the global south), it doesn’t look any different than how the historical fascist countries also defeated their working class movements.
To me, the basis of this is western chauvinism, and belief that “liberal democracy” isn’t far worse. By pointing a finger at fascism, they get to keep their belief in the supremacy of their mode of government, that continues to wreak havoc on not just the globe, but internally also. It’s a subtle form of western-supremacist scapegoating (pointing a finger at a settler-colonialism that dared to attack western countries also)
Removed by mod
The White House’s new exertion of control over the media finally gets us a perfect 14/14 score according to Britt’s Characteristics of Fascism. Granted, it’s not pass/fail. Things can still get far worse.
Huh…so we passed on all 14…which is a fail…at least from my perspective. Maga perspective may differ.
Yes, perfectly modeling fascism is a failure. I didn’t want to suggest that we hit bottom just because we checked some boxes. There’s still plenty of room for things to get worse if we don’t do anything to stop it.
I feel like it’s unamerican in regards to the values our country espouses, even though it completely and utterly fails to uphold them.
The purpose of a system is what it does
“American values” are just a smokescreen, they aren’t failed, more they serve their purpose of obfuscation well.
Nah man, Americans have values. Freedom, perseverance, independence, self expression. It’s just that we have utterly failed to uphold those values in our actions. Even in the beginning, talking about slavery being terrible but still allowing it for political reasons right at the founding.
Those values only really served as a way for the ruling class that founded America to justify itself. They weren’t genuine.
I’m talking about the shared cultural values of the society we have today, views shared by most Americans. Most Americans like free speech. Most Americans like liberty. Et cetera and so on. These are things that are part of our culture. You aren’t any less of a person for recognizing that these are values that are held by this culture.
I am also saying that despite culturally sharing in these values, our society also fails to actually support them in very big ways.
And I am telling you that the cultural aspects came from a desire from the ruling class to support freedom for Capitalists to do what they want, and morally justify it. That’s why these values never seem to actually be supported, just gestured towards.
“Espouses but fails to uphold” sounds more like negligence to me. Negligence would be allowing fascism through inaction (like democrat administration). But the US does far worse than that (funding genocide and propping up fascism elsewhere)
Nah, I liked how I phrased it. We’ve been failing to uphold our ideals since the beginning, even Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite who hated slavery but sure as hell did a lot of it.
Jefferson didn’t hate slavery, he even pledged support for France against Haiti’s slave rebellion.
None of these are specifically fascism. Get better examples
Militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation, and strong regimentation of society are all characteristics of fascism listed in the meme.
“You say we live indoors yet you pointed to four walls, a door, and a roof. None of these is specific to a building.”
Fucking hell
He’s right tho. The stuff in the meme are just things that happened under capitalism.
Let’s not whitewash capitalism by blaming its atrocities on fascism.
Well capitalism tends to lead you to fascism so idk how it’s white washing.
It’s whitewashing because it’s implying that genocide, leftist suppression, etc are the exclusive characteristics of a fascistic system instead of business as usual under capitalism. This removes the bad aspects of capitalism (“if this is happening it’s because the US has turned fash, it’s not capitalism’s fault”).
This doesnt even mention nationalism or belief in a natural social hierarchy
It would be closer to saying that pointing to four walls, a door and a roof disprove the statement “this is not a building”
Feels like imperializem merits to be further down the line, if not the last panel.
But yes, good memetics in this meme, gg.
I think the point you’re making is true, but the titular argument could still be useful rhetoric to the misguided patriot.
The title is sarcasm
No, this is Patrick
@Confidant6198 most incarcerated??? You mean excluding countries with numbers undisclosed or altered or killed like China or North Korea
“America doesn’t have the most incarcerated if you baselessly assume other countries secretly have more!”
Ok
Hey it’s not like we have secret prisons with no due process where people are tortured.
??? 100 GORILLION NO IPHONE !!!
@davel iphone is the most capitalist bullshit I’ve seen but I so do I hate communism
I hate it when China and North Korea kill numbers. Like I’m just trying to count stuff here and you’re telling me that 9 is dead?
@HiddenLayer555 yes because 7 8 9 because a communist famine
German
absolutely frothing at the mouth at the mention of communism
checks out
Famines had been commonplace occurrences in feudal China and Russia, which the communist states brought an end to. And those final famines occurred under post-war conditions, and under disastrous crop seasons that affected neighboring states as well.
@davel pick up your history book. The famine under mao Zhedong was because of stupidity. He killed all birds that ate all crop eating insects. The famine under Stalin in Ukraine for example was just pure evil. They took the crops from Ukraine to export them not leaving enough to feed the population causing a massive starvation.
@dessalines you won’t find exact numbers for China. estimations of the ones killed of about 70 000 per year for organ harvesting. But hey it’s bad enough that USA is being compared to a country as evil as China.
Organ harvesting is not a real thing. You really need to stop passively accepting Cold War II atrocity propaganda. Falun Gong is a CIA-backed far-right religious cult and their organ harvesting narrative is bullshit.
And even if it were all true, the USA would still be far, far, far worse.
- List of Atrocities committed by US authorities
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
- Infographic: US military presence around the world The US controls about 750 bases in at least 80 countries worldwide and spends more on its military than the next 10 countries combined.
- Shock therapy (economics)
- Super-Imperialism
- Confessions of an Economic Hit Man
- The Shock Doctrine
- How to Hide an Empire
- The Jakarta Method
In Germany Jan Böhmermann did an expose on Falun Gong once, and it was hilarious. Highly recommend, it’s still on YouTube.
@davel I think reports like “the slaughter” “bloody harvest” from 2007 2016 and the 2021 UN tribunal and the fact that after the persecution in 1999 the organ transplant numbers suddenly shot up before China had a organ transplant system and have in hospital multiple floors for organ transplant with transplant waiting times of only a week (despite organ tourism especially from Korea) speaks for its self.
On international scene China is more subtle with debt trap diplomacy neocolonialism Africa
“Chinese debt trap diplomacy” is yet another Western Cold War II psyop. It’s pure projection of what the Global North has been doing to the Global South.
- The Atlantic: The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ Is a Myth
- Learning from China: Theoretical bases of China’s “win-win” foreign policy concept
- Chatham House: Debunking the Myth of ‘Debt-trap Diplomacy’
- Johns Hopkins U.: Debt Relief with Chinese Characteristics
