People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google’s Play store, without having to:
- pay Google
- give government ID to Google
- agree to Google terms and conditions
People should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google’s Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We’ve got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
fuck google and fuck android.
donate to https://postmarketos.org/ (and any of the great opensource mobile projects).
stop begging for longer chains and bigger cages.
Lowkey postmarketos isnt where its at sorry i think mobian would be better because look at debian, ubuntu made it better but not quite there and then we got mint and zorin. I think the same will happen mobian and postmarket is based on mobian. Also kde and gnome are the one that need the funding since they run the gui/desktop environment.
Or… just don’t use android. There’s a few degoogled forks out there, they should really catch on.
“The tighter you squeeze, the more slips through your fingers.”
Also, we all know this isn’t about keeping malicious apps off people’s devices, because even the play store is full of malicious apps. I’d trust anything on F-droid more.
They are, graphene will be getting a side launch with a major distributor about a year a after launch and you can mamual install it when the flagship is released. The reason google phones buy is so people can install graphen lol.
I trust 8 year old out of date F-droid apps more than google play front page apps.
Some fdroid apps are absolutly goated that you cant get on playstore
Where’s “you should use Graphene OS”, which you should do anyway?
United States?? antitrust Law??
I’m anti trusting any U.S. law these days.
Yall are following laws?
Yup. We’re big on pre-fascist nostalgia.
Microsoft was the same, protected from antitrust when they opened up a back door for the US government.
Honestly we need operating systems to be regulated to have the freedom to install any app you want without the company’s permission. Maybe not all of them, but any provided with a general computation device such as a computer or smartphone, and the freedom to replace operating systems on any device that isn’t highly specialized with immediate safety concerns (stuff like insulin pump systems and cars)
The problem is these companies have infinite lawyers and will find ways around. With the way you’ve worded it, PCs and Phones will no longer be marketed as personal devices. They will instead be a licensed device you paid to have the privilege to use, and only to be used for communication, work and internet access. This making it so it won’t fall under “general computation”
What we really should be pushing for is open platforms. Getting our friends and family on open platforms, and asking our governments to fund open platforms. The EU was almost doing good until this ID bullshit where you have to have a Play Certified or iOS device.
Dumb question: how is this affecting projects like Graphene OS?
Can android just be forked and detached from google?
I am guessing that despite being “open source”, the project depends on many binary blobs to interface with the wireless devices ??
Okay here what noone talks about android is linux at its core if android and linux were merged it wouldnt to hard of a parject but the issue is time and resources. If linux and android were merged as open source it screw up the entire system and google would be screwed and thwy realised that and thats why their quietly trying to do it first.
Google has been systematically moving stuff out of the open-source part of Android and into proprietary areas for some time now. They’re making it harder and harder for anyone to make a working Android OS that isn’t full of closed-source Google spyware. For now these projects survive, but Google is clearly hostile to them.
My last straw was when I had location services permission denied to chrome, and then one day discovered that it had turned them back on without notifying me…
Also, every time my apps updated they gave themselves back permissions that I had disabled.
What would it take to start from a clean slate? I mean, a mad lad said about 35 years ago “UNIX expensive. I’m gonna make my own OS”
What are the obstacles for something like this to happen for phones? I assume device drivers, but probably it is much more complicated than that
I assume device drivers, but probably it is much more complicated than that
Yes, device drivers are an issue. Reverse engineering them is a bitch and slows you down, particularly if you want to support a wide range of models and those models keep getting hardware updates.
But that’s not all, software ecosystem is another big one. Android and iOS have seen two decades of people developing software for them. In order for them to want to port their software over to your cleanSlateOS, it would have to have a significant user base. And in order for cleanSlateOS to draw that significant user base, it would have to have an attractive suite of apps to run on it. It’s a catch-22.
You could, in theory, try to develop emulators or compatibility layers so that Android apps will also run on cleanSlateOS. But that, again, is time-consuming, will never be free of friction, and require you to make compromises with regard to security and privacy (many apps simply don’t run properly without Google’s main piece of spyware, the Play Services). It will also kind of tie you to Google again - and that was the thing you were trying to get away from in the first place…
I dream of a system with the same philosophy as unix: simple tools with one and only one job, that pipe with each other.
perhaps, defining some “common ground formats” to smooth the in/out across apps.
developers and apps will eventually come. but drivers, that depends on the manufacturers
FSF has a project called LibrePhone
Broken link?
I have a GNU/Linux phone I carry in my other pocket. Here are the biggest issues I can see:
- Driver support for components in the mainline kernel (lets you install any distro and things like camera, Bluetooth just work)
- Power management; turns out it is a hard technical problem to have your phone suspend to save energy, while being awake enough to know what and when to turn back on yo receive chats/calls, playback music, etc
- Cameras have a lot of stuff beyond drivers happening behind the scenes these days in software that would need to be developed, especially given it is a big reason people choose their phones for
- Phone certification is tough, this has stopped even companies like Fairphone from shipping their devices worldwide, I imagine even harder for a device like the Purism Librem 5 where you can literally upgrade Wi-Fi, BT, and cellular generations like a gameboy cartridge
- App ecosystems take a while to build up, it is a chicken/egg scenario. I think things are in a useable state for all the default apps an iPhone has, but if you want Uber, Uber Eats, you either have to draw even more power essentially running Android via Waydroid, or use a typically more janky web app that may be missing some features
Aren’t there also issues with Banking Apps and their requirements around security and signing?
access the bank website in the browser?
The problem is: at least where I live, banks use mobile apps to generate second factor authentication. (No TOTP, all proprietary / homegrown mechanics.) No second factor - no login.
The proprietary second factor in bank apps tends to work fine, since it is displayed before any invasive authentication crap.
It feels stupid to have the whole app and that’s all it does. But it tends to work.
But then, I consider a proprietary second factor app to be a huge red flag for security, so I prefer ones services compatible with Aegis or other open second factor solutions.
Not all have websites sadly. Virgin for example got rid of their web app and now direct you to download them mobile app as the only way to manage your accounts outside of the brick and mortar branches. Obviously I now rarely use that credit card, if ever. But others may have their main bank accounts and mortgages etc with such a bank and that would suck.
oof, yeah, that sounds like a good reason not to do business with them
way ahead there, I use Android and my internet banking app is just a wrapper for their website.
As some other people mentioned the Waydroid app or their website can work. If you do Waydroid, you can install Gapps, and other banking app isn’t happy with that, they typically offer decent mobile websites.
GNOME Web and Mozilla Firefox via this PWA extension let you have a dedicated app icon for any web service you want into your app drawer. The Firefox one works best, and I believe does a better job isolating stuff from the main browser.
What’s cool is you can run an entire Monero wallet (or other cryptocurrency) on device for full mobile financial experience, though don’t store more in it than you would a regular wallet.
GrapheneOS is currently unaffected, at least specifically regarding your freedom to install apps. They’ve stated this won’t affect GrapheneOS.
The main problem as pointed out by floofloof is that a lot of Android development is no longer part of AOSP, but separate proprietary implementations. For example, if you install stock Android, Google has a feature to recognize music playing around you and provide a list to you later. GrapheneOS lacks this feature, because it relies on proprietary code. Same goes for the features to find your device if it’s lost, AI stuff, etc.
Personally I’d be very heppy if Graphene OS continues long into the future without those features anyway.
Most of them aren’t necessary to most people, but the main concern is features that should reasonably be part of the core Android experience being removed, or features that have no reason to be reliant on Google at all.
For example, GrapheneOS can’t support the detection of your phone being quickly ripped away from you to auto-lock the device, even though that should only require onboard sensors and processing, and it can’t support the additional custom clocks for lock screen customization, because Google decided those would be built into the Google app then extended to Android after, rather than being built into AOSP.
You can reasonably see a future where other functionality gets put into these proprietary blobs too. Maybe the launcher becomes proprietary and GrapheneOS has to use or develop a separate FOSS one that might not support all the same features. Maybe charging optimization gets locked behind proprietary code because Google claims it uses “special algorithms” to adjust how your phone charges. Maybe Private Space gets turned proprietary because Google claims it needs special security features.
That’s why it’s particularly concerning, because in the future, Google could just decide that any number of features aren’t part of AOSP anymore, and now GrapheneOS either has to give them up entirely, or make/find an alternative.
And I’m already steadily moving to Linux based platforms like Mobian, SailfishOS, Ubuntu Touch, and others.
This vile move by Google was written on the wall for years. Those who use their products are test subjects who then are promoted to cattle, not customers.
Which devices do you use? I really want to do this but need banking stuff, WhatsApp (for family communication) and the phone on my Pixel 7 is really good so dont want to lose that.
Graphene runs on pixel and has a step by step guide on how to install it. You can also put your banking apps in another profile with Google Play services in it or run Google Play services in a sandbox on your main profile (I believe you can set that up when setting up the phone it’s just a toggle switch).
I will say my pixel 6 runs significantly better with graphene than my 8 does with regular Android and it was easy to install to test drive. I did have an issue with Android Auto but I have to check again to see if I fixed it.
I have a Pixel 7 I’ve been dailying for over a year with GrapheneOS. All my banking apps work great in their segregated profile and even Android Auto. I don’t use WhatsApp, I’ve converted my friends and family to Signal. Your mileage may obviously vary, but definitely consider it. Graphene doesn’t address the meat of this post (Google fucking Android), but definitely helps for the interim (until Linux phones are truly viable).
Run any Android specific apps in Waydroid (e.g. WhatsApp) and it appears as just another icon in your app drawer, or use a web app, again you can make it a dedicated icon in your app drawer.
Unfortunately Google Pixel 7 is not a device supported yet on any distros I’ve seen; PostmarketOS has the best support for Android devices. Across distros, Fairphone has the best support.
What people with Android devices can do though, is install Linux on top of Android. Opposite of Waydroid (not as good), but at least lets you play around with it to get familiar without needing root:
Not OP, but when i was running custom ROMs on my main device I carried 2 devices, i had my main phone in my pocket and my secondary in my purse. The secondary ran “Android” so i could use tap pay and the like.
You said ‘When’ - does that mean you stopped?
Yeah, i just run a very heavily modified android now. Hard to find good phones (with features that i want and need) with enough software support. Couldn’t get lineage os working on my zenfone, it was a horribly buggy experience and I couldn’t get mobile networks working. I needed more reliability and stability, so i manually debloated and stripped almost all telemetry. Rooted this thing and blocked anything that isn’t whitelisted.
lmao
2026: Return of the Blackberry OS???
From your lips to your god of choice’s ears. This effective duopoly in the smartphone market is really starting to wear thin.
From the FAQ page
Sideloading is fundamental to Android, and it’s not going anywhere.
What’s the concern here?
The problem is that “not going anywhere” doesn’t mean it won’t get severely restricted, and that they’re still gonna force devs to verify before being able to distribute an app.
It doesn’t mean that it will be severely restricted either.
What’s wrong with making devs verify? How does that hurt the end user if side loading still works?
These questions are always asked in the opposite direction. What’s right with making devs verify? What does it gain an end user?
You think AI app slop is good? Cause that’s all you’ll have if literally anyone can just put an app into whatever store they want.
So let the app stores sort that out. If Google wants signing on play store then fine. Don’t force it on people who don’t want it.
If someone makes an app and I want to install it, that’s between me and the developer.
What’s wrong with making devs verify?
It’s just okay to you if an unwanted third wheel wants the power to choose which developers apps I can install? They also conveniently collect a fee for it.
It’s a curated app store. App devs are still free to just not put it on that store and host it themselves. You can definitely keep it between you and the dev.
This is not about Google Play it’s an OS level thing.
But this has nothing to do with a curated app store? Nobody is complaining about play store verification. Google is planning to block “unverified” developers’ apps from being installed at all, from any source.
Because it exposes devs of projects that may not want to be exposed such as ICE trackers. Furthermore it gives Google veto power over whst you can sideload
it gives Google veto power over whst you can sideload
Source?
The source is Google themselves doing exactly this.
Nobody saying it definitely will be either, but that there’s a possibility and that’s what the concern is.
Don’t interrupt your enemies when they are making mistakes. Let Google make this mistake and the EU fuck them up.
If a mistake harms people, it should be stopped.
Not all harm is equal and not all harm is useful.
What are you talking about ?
What do you not understand?
How’s letting Google doing this shit end up helping us ?
I think they were asking you to elaborate
@[email protected] Google has been allowed to operate this way because they are the only real alternative to Apple. If that alternative disappears, it will pressure either the community to rally and create awareness, for it to work on alternatives, or (and this is my bet) for a bigger instance like that of an EU nation or the EU itself, to step in. Since the EU is beginning to see the US threat and voices for digital sovereignty are getting louder, such a move by Google could realistically draw the attention of the EU Commission, parliament, and courts.
However, that can only happen if Google makes the mistake. If we prevent it from making the mistake, it will have moved the Overton window enough to make the situation worse than it is now, but not as bad as it could’ve been. So we’ll just end up with a worse situation and no political nor judicial attention. Google will have boiled the frog.
The short term gain of Google backing off will offset the long-term gain of a real solution.
We saw what it’s doing for Microslop with their forceful introduction of windows 11…
Thank you for elaborating
I think you make good points, but I’m still convinced pushing back is necessary. It may not be enough, but it will at least make some of our voices heard.
Then the EU has 3 options :
-
It does nothing because it doesn’t even think it’s a problem (e.g they seem to think this about Apple, because they do the same thing. Correct me if I’m wrong)
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It tries tu regulate it, but fails because of Google’s lobbying and possibly corruption
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It successfully breaks Googles fingers and gives back freedom co the consumer.
I personnally wouldn’t try to pass the breaking point hoping for the best. I’m more of a pessimist: I’d rather fight, thinking of the worst outcome but still hoping to be wrong (if that makes sense)
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I think that’s a fairly good take. It’s also fairly accelerationist, rather than pushing back the other way. What about the momentum and awareness that would be gained by publicly pushing back against Google to a level to force them to recant the policy? In other words, why don’t you think an iterative approach is better than letting the bad stuff happen and then having to essentially start over, and risking all sorts of other problems?
It’s kind of like having a car with serious issues. And you either drive it until it explodes and you get in a car accident, or you pump time and money into it and fix it? Except the car is also you and you need to grow in order to learn to stop using sawdust instead of oil.
