MJ calls what happened to her in Zion national park “small ‘T’ trauma”. She knows women have experienced worse from their partners. But she still feels the anger of being left behind on a hike by her now ex. “It brings up stuff in my body that maybe I have not cleared out yet,” she said.
Five years ago, MJ and a new partner – he was not exactly her boyfriend, and the pair were not exclusive – traveled from Los Angeles to Utah for an adventure getaway. MJ, who is 38 and works in PR, was looking forward to exploring Zion’s striking scenery; its vast sandstone canyon and pristine wading trails were on the list. But on the morning of their big hike, MJ was not feeling well. She could not shake the feeling that something was “off”; indeed, MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women.
As they made their way up Angel’s Landing, MJ’s partner started walking faster than her. “I could tell it was getting on his nerves that I was slow,” she said. “I was like, ‘Fuck it, just go ahead of me.’” He did without hesitation.
When she caught up at the top of the mountain, they took a picture together. Then her partner hiked down the mountain with a woman he had met on the way up, leaving MJ to finish by herself. They broke up shortly after that trip. (MJ asked to be referred to by her initials for the sake of speaking openly about a past relationship.)
Last month, MJ opened TikTok and heard the phrase “alpine divorce”, a label she now attaches to her experience in Zion.
I’m just gonna say it, if you want to break up with your girlfriend don’t be a dick about it.
“Don’t go on a hike with someone you don’t trust.” All you little boys in here victim blaming need to be checked.
Got back into the dating world recently and was pretty surprised to learn that respectfully communicating your feelings about things afterwards is apparently rare. People need to grow up.
Ever since social media took over, dating and relationship rates have plummeted.
The amount and stuntedness of emotionally stunted immature men is only going up with social media…everything
the pair were not exclusive
…
MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women
…isn’t that was “not exclusive” means?
Casual partners may still prefer to know if their partner is sleeping with others for a variety of reasons. The first one that comes to mind is health.
Sure. My point is, though, isn’t that already implied by them not being exclusive?
They could be not exclusive but still agree to let the other know when they introduce a new sex partner.
Y’all never heard of safe sex?
Soooo, this guy was a dick, but aren’t you just defining “exclusive until we say we are not”?
Maybe I’m getting old and have lost the lingo (very possible) but I feel like we’re redefining exclusive here.
How would they be exclusive if additional sex partners are allowed? It’s not an asking for permission scenario, it’s just keeping your partners informed of who is involved.
I’ve mostly done so for health reasons.
I still think we are saying the same thing.
“Let’s not put labels on anything, let’s just choose to not have any other partners while we are sleeping together. If one us changes our mind about that, they should be up front with the other person about it.”
“Let’s be exclusive. If one us changes our mind about that, they should be up front with the other person about it.”
Am I missing something? Is “exclusive” used for a different definition now?
They could already have existing partners and wouldn’t be exclusive, but have an agreement to inform if there are new partners being added.
Also being exclusive is a more serious type of relationship than just friends with benefits imo.
The chance that they agreed on that and she wouldn’t mention it is slim, though
I’m shocked by this comment section… Guys defending some POS for leaving their non-committed partner on their own?
I mean, she said go on without me.
It’s an out and back. They waited for them up at the top.
To me the only shitty part is dumping them for another partner on the way down, goddamn that’s pretty shitty. We’re only hearing half the story though. Maybe she was being a jerk too and he didn’t want to put up with it.
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You don’t expect your BF to hook up with someone new mid-mountain.
Actually it says he wasn’t exactly her boyfriend either
Ok so it’s ok to abandon your fuck buddy. TIL
Nobody but you said that that part is OK.
You’re in a thread wondering about thee thread’s confusing description of their relationship status, not about the “leaving her behind” part.
Nobody but you missed the sarcasm. Or the moral behind it.
I was talking about the hooking up mid mountain part, which is what your comment I replied to was primarily about. And the OPs too.
You can just admit you missed that part instead of getting defensive.
I missed nothing. That is not important to the story. When you go into the wilderness with someone, you have formed an inherent defense pact and have a duty of care to each other. Hooking up mid mountain and leaving the other person, regardless of their relationship, is immoral. If harm comes to them, then it was likely illegal.
Your comment wasn’t talking about the “abandoning mid mountain” part. It was talking about the relationship status part. That’s the part I corrected. We weren’t, in this comment chain, talking about the overall story - it was about your comment on their relationship. Stop trying to build a strawman.
Geez, Americans really can’t admit they made even a minor mistake.
Adding you to my block list. Keep your petulant pedantry to yourself.
“I thought he was only seeing other men!”
Yeah, this is just zoomers not realizing what they’ve signed up for.
Uhhhh
“seeing other women” means “not exclusive”
but “not exclusive” does not always mean “seeing other women”
He could be, just as one example of many, very unsuccessful at trying to see other women despite having an existing “nonexclusivity” agreement with her.
yes, but people are emotional and they don’t abide by their own terms
every casual relationship i ever had was never actually casual. it was just full on monogamy with a ‘get out of jail if someone better comes along’ card built in.
Valid, but far from universal. Poly people do exist.
poly people have rules.
Like telling their partners when they have a new sex partner.
A recent case study illustrates this point: last month, an amateur Austrian mountaineer was found guilty of gross negligence manslaughter for leaving his exhausted girlfriend behind on his country’s highest peak while he went in search of help. The man, a Salzburg chef identified only as Thomas P, said he was “endlessly sorry” for her death, and his lawyer called it a “tragic accident”. But Thomas P could not explain why he failed to wrap his freezing girlfriend in her emergency blanket before heading down the mountain without her. Earlier in their trek he had also told a police officer over the phone that they did not need any help, even though a rescue helicopter was made available to them.
I remember hearing about this one.
He had done it before with another woman, but she didn’t die. In the recent case, the dead woman’s family supported him. Even though he took their survival supplies. Very odd situation.
A new kind of serial killer 😂
This is so fucking sexist.
Hey everyone, women are just as capable of surviving in the mountains as men!
There’s some safety and ethical rules in the mountains. You don’t leave your hiking/climbing partner unless you both agree it’s fine. Gender of this partner doesn’t matter. Guy leaving another guy is equally bad as guy leaving a woman. Women are not inherently more prone to dying in the mountains than men. The fact that everyone treats this as someone abandoning a helpless person is infuriating. It’s shitty behavior but it would be equally shitty if this guy left his male friend or if she left him. It’s 2026, this is fairly progressive space and still everyone looks at with “women need protecting” mindset. It’s mind boggling.
When I see women in the mountains I don’t think to myself “oh my god, they are here without supervision? hope they will be fine!”. Am I the only one?
Yes, it is ethically wrong to leave anyone behind in the wilderness.
What has surfaced in the news more often recently is men doing this to women. Was that not clear from the article?
There was actually a case in Brazil recently where a girl left her male friend alone during a hike, and the guy got lost and stayed 5 days surviving alone in the jungle near the mountain until he was eventually found alive. Almost no news outlet mentions that he was abandoned, but there is a video from the girl who was supposed to be with him saying that she left him behind and out of her sight. No news outlet blamed the woman like they would if the gender roles had been reversed.
Was that not clear from the article?
No one throwing a fit about this article has actually read the article
Yeah, I started reading the other responses… Big oof.
I’ve actually been left alone on a trip before. I was the less experienced one, but I managed. Not trying to play the victim just saying it happens. I’m used to being left behind it’s so ordinary I wouldn’t call the news, (because when women do this to men it would never reach the news, and whyd I’d need this attention anyways)
When women do this to men it doesn’t reach the news.
Yeah, you’re right. I’m always complaining to my Bros how I’m sick of getting left in the woods by women. /s
Come on, why bother with the lie? Why not just paste a nice link to some stats? Get out of here, man.
Everyone I don’t agree with is lying
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What has surfaced in the news more often recently is men doing this to women. Was that not clear from the article?
There was one story from the Alps. That’s it. It looks like someone saw this story and tried to create a new phenomenon looking for stories that will fit the narrative. All assuming that when two adults go into mountains women are universally the ones that can’t take care of themselves and need help and it’s men’s responsibility to provide this help. It’s sexist.
if you do wilderness first aid training, they do in fact tell you to leave people behind, especially in circumstances where it would get them aid faster or in which you staying would further hasten their demise.
but that has no bearing on this story.
How did they establish it’s not also happening at the same rates in other-gendered situations? Seems anecdotal and contrived.
Sounds a lot like whataboutism.
This the same reaction as “men also are abused!”, which is obviously true, hut at much, much lower rates than women.
There is no requirement to establish a pattern of women abandoning men for this article, because it’s not about that.
which is obviously true, hut at much, much lower rates than women.
i take it you’ve manned and run the domestic crisis phone lines and seen this firsthand like i have because my experience is that women get much much more help (because help exists for women, it does not for men). men just report their first experiences, move on without getting the assistance that does not exist for abused men and then do not report any more abuse they suffer.
So an article about women being abandoned in the wilderness should somehow evoke the plight of men’s lack of support… What’s the connection between these two?
men report abuse less than women because the support structures are not there for them. it’s like autism and left-handedness. it does not go away simply because you are not looking for it.
Again, I’ll ask wtf that has to do with the article.
You want to know the fun thing about your fucking dipshitted lie? If you are a man and you call a domestic crisis phone line, they will still give you resources. Resources for abused men, be they straight, queer, cis, or trans, DOES EXIST. In bigger areas, they will attempt to direct you towards more specific help since there might be groups better geared towards your specific situation, but, like the fact you think that a women’s crisis resource would abandon men in need because they are men is such a fucking sexist lie. They might not be able to offer the same level of help, true. But they are there to help people in domestic abuse situations. Go fuck yourself.
It’s not whataboutism, even if it sounds like it.
Primus “I want chicken”
Secundus “What about salmon?”
Primus “Whataboutism! Your claim is invalid you have lost the debate.”
Pro tip: We’re not locked into one topic. We’re allowed to make comparisons, we all do it every day.
Yes, I know you will now say I a gaslighting. You win
Some women in the outdoors industry bridle at the gender stereotypes wrapped up in alpine divorce: chiefly, the assumption that a woman cannot take care of herself or has less experience outside than her male partner. “Believe it or not, we can do things that have nothing to do with men,” said Ellison, the Climbing editor. “I really struggle with saying ‘men do this,’ and ‘women do that,’ and those generalizations.”
Blair Braverman is a writer, adventurer and dogsled musher who has competed in the Iditarod and Kobuk 440. (She took 36th place in the 2019 Iditarod, becoming the first Jewish woman to finish the storied, 1,000-mile (1,609km) race.) “Personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I’d be more worried for him than me,” she said. “I think it’s interesting that [the term] assumes that the woman is the one with less capability.”
If there is a feminist spin on alpine divorce, it’s what comes after the women are left behind. When her ex ditched her in Zion, MJ hiked alongside a friendly female stranger and her young son. Naomi helped the woman with vertigo in Arches. “It happened to me many years ago,” one user wrote in the comment section of the viral TikTok clip. “I met 2 girls on the mountain and told them what happened, and we walked down together. They wouldn’t let me go alone.”
The article also goes into this aspect of the conversation.
So some women in the industry agree with me. Good, I was starting to think everyone is sexist. I hated the excerpt so much I didn’t read the entire article. Nice to see they also covered it.
You should really read the article before you get all upset about how sexist it is.
I was referring more to the concept the article was talking about and the general attitude in comments under this and other similar posts as being sexist. It’s good that this article is somehow better at covering it but this doesn’t change how most people react to those stories.
It could have bolstered your argument if you had actually read the article before spouting off.
At the end of the day, it’s just women noting to others another way men can choose to abuse. It’s just another way for women to keep each other safe by sharing our stories.
Ok, I guess I didn’t consider leaving someone to hike alone abuse because in my experience women are perfectly capable of hiking alone. It’s like saying that leaving someone to shop alone in a mall is abuse. If it’s actually reasonable to assume women need male companion in the mountains then you’re right, it’s not sexists.
You’re ignoring the subtly to these stories - in a lot of cases, these women’s male partners were more experienced, were carrying more supplies, or were otherwise more prepared for going into the wilderness. So there’s an additional layer of danger when these men decide for whatever reason to leave behind their less experienced partner.
A shop is not the same as a hike in the wilderness. People do have different levels of experience and preparedness.
Reading the article would have shone a light on this for you.
It’s sexist in the way that it might depict only women suffering from this type of behavior, but I think that women do tend to be the major demographic that suffers from this type of behavior, which, to me, is a type of sexism that is nowhere near as harmful as the behavior it condemns. It’s not saying they can’t hike.
This type of abuse can happen literally anywhere. You’re out in the city and you’re not walking fast enough? Get ditched with no warning. And that’s the problem. There is usually some modicum of control that the people ditching (you can read this as men) have over the situation that leaves the partner in a vulnerable state. Sometimes they drove. Sometimes they know the way. Sometimes they have the experience. It’s an abuse tactic to do something like that.
So, idk man, calling this sexist and then pretending there’s some unrelated problem to address is a weird take.
Thank you. Weird ass take, I thought we left this shit on Reddit?
When I first moved to Lemmy from Reddit it wasn’t this bad. Now it’s no fucking different than when I worked in a sawmill, surrounded by shitty men.
I recognize your username now that I’ve been on lemmy for a minute and I always appreciate your contributions here <3
This place has a misogyny problem and looks no different than 4chan or early days of Reddit.
So it’s not just me thank you! Shocking to see. Honestly I feel impotent towards it, idk what one can do apart from organizing, and if one is to organize, what to do?
I think we just keep existing and being firm in our points of view. Downvotes from pouty men are a badge of honor now lol
Right back atcha Velma. Always good to have comrads fighting beside you. :)
I think the main takeaway here is that alpine divorce is an intent to murder. And yeh, it’s sexism. Not exactly in the way you’re putting it tho.
When they abandoned First Nations in Saskatchewan, and one made it back alive to tell people what was happening just like this woman is, the takeaway wasn’t that hey , gee, ya know they can survive being abandoned …it’s that they were abandoned to begin with WITH A VERY SPECIFIC INTENT TO DIE OUT THERE.
I think you not noticing that is the overall disgusting misogyny that society regularly overlooks and minimizes women’s right to life and safety should be considered not just that she can do it herself it’s that no one gives a shit if there was a chance she didn’t survive and how.
This shouldn’t be dismissed or minimized.
I think the main takeaway here is that alpine divorce is an intent to murder.
Assuming that women alone in the mountains will die is the sexist part. There are to aspects of this story:
-
men are breaking up with women in the mountains - if you can prove this is something men do but women don’t it’s a valid take. You can call it ‘alpine divorce’. It’s weird behavior. It would be interesting to learn why it happens (if it a real phenomenon)
-
more experienced hiking partners are leaving less experienced hiking partners alone in the mountains - this is shitty and dangerous no matter the gender. It’s about basic safety in the mountains
Both are valid concerns. It becomes sexists when you combine the two for no reason and assume women are always the less experienced person in the mountains. When I’m reading about it I’m imagining two adults going their way in the mountains. I don’t immediately assume one is responsible for the safety of the other only because of their genders. Because I’m not sexist.
The fuq did i just read. Looks like a manifesto written by a psychopath
Begone stupid bot.
Are you on drugs or something?
-
“It’s such a common thing,” said Julie Ellison, the first female editor-in-chief of Climbing magazine who now works as an outdoor lifestyle photographer. She has heard “so many stories” about men fumbling outdoor dates. “There’s that male ego element to it that’s not necessarily evil or ill-intentioned, but it usually has a negative effect on the partner who’s being left behind.”
But Ellision also says:
Some women in the outdoors industry bridle at the gender stereotypes wrapped up in alpine divorce: chiefly, the assumption that a woman cannot take care of herself or has less experience outside than her male partner. “Believe it or not, we can do things that have nothing to do with men,” said Ellison, the Climbing editor. “I really struggle with saying ‘men do this,’ and ‘women do that,’ and those generalizations.”
Blair Braverman is a writer, adventurer and dogsled musher who has competed in the Iditarod and Kobuk 440. (She took 36th place in the 2019 Iditarod, becoming the first Jewish woman to finish the storied, 1,000-mile (1,609km) race.) “Personally, if I were with a man and he wandered away from me on a mountain, I’d be more worried for him than me,” she said. “I think it’s interesting that [the term] assumes that the woman is the one with less capability.”
So there’s some acknowledgement that women can be just as capable of men in the outdoors, but I agree with you that the article tone is more of “women are helpless out in the wilderness and need a man to protect them”.
The difference being, it’s your fucking partner, and it’s guys doing it. No sexism here, just men being shitty partners. Shame them and move on instead of deflecting.
Yes, shitty men are shitty partners. Why is being shitty in the mountains different than being shitty anywhere else? All this is assuming that when a couple goes into the mountains men is responsible for women. Which is sexist. Both are adults, both can take care of themselves.
because cultural sexism. that’s why. innocent women must be protected from evil horrible men at all costs!
i bet if this story was about a gay couple you’d have a wildly different set of comments on here. and it would also be different about a lesbian couple.
but since it’s hetereosexual you have everyone projecting their sexism and relationship violence fears and generalizing it into some epidemic.
shitty people are shitty to each other, no matter the relationship. it has little to do with the sex of the people involved.
the truth of the story is probably far more complex and nuanced than is being told, but that would get in the way of the simplified narrative of an innocent woman being abused and neglected by a horrible man, onto which people can morally condemn and project how they’d never do that.
I bet if you looked at the numbers, it happens to ciswomen from cismen a statistically large amount of the time. Like at least three times higher than the others per capita. I mean, that wouldn’t be particularly surprising to me because queer couples tend to have different issues, but I am gonna take a wild shot in the dark and say that you have maybe one queer friend and thus know very little about the relationship dynamics.
I think if your problem is that women are complaining about men is sexist, then you are preemptively trying to shield shitty partner behavior when it’s done by men. To me, that reeks of someone that thinks it’s okay to be abusive to women, which is sort of a shitty person indicator, which, as you indicated, is because you are shitty to others.
I think if your problem is that women are complaining about men is sexist,
No one said this. The complaint is that women are painted as helpless in order to manufacture abuse. The man that continues the hike alone is in no danger because he’s a man. Woman alone is in danger.
Before you say anything, yes, there can be many different situation where it’s not just about being alone. There can be difference in experience or someone can be left without supplies. None of the examples in the article alleges anything like that. All the described cases are simply women that are left behind by someone walking faster. One example is a women left behind by her male and female friends. The implication is that women left without a man is in danger which I find sexist.
Well, in spite of the fact that the person I replied to is definitely a misogynist (and thus sexist), I would argue that there is one hundred percent an intended bias in their message to try to defend men’s (specifically) behavior when it is abusive by downplaying it.
But, thank you for standing up for women! I was unaware that women being infantilized was, in fact, more sexist than saying it is okay for anyone to abandon their partners when they explicitly did not want to be abandoned! Was that your message? Because it’s weird that these women were saying they didn’t want to be abandoned and yet they were and that that fact must be about them being defenseless and not about abusive behaviors on the part of those men. How strange. Can you explain that?
"I was like, ‘Fuck it, just go ahead of me.’
The man and woman left Naomi on the way up.
her date had gone to retrieve his camera
One woman described a 12-hour journey out of the Grand Canyon after her boyfriend ditched her
Another described getting lost in the woods after a man left her behind
Which of those stories are about women “abandoned by their partners when they explicitly did not want to be abandoned”? The thing is all the situations in the article lack any details that would make them abusive. MJ from the excerpt was hiking very popular, short trail. She told the guy to go ahead because she couldn’t keep up and found another person to hike with. Those are the details we have. Naomi was left behind by two friends, man and woman, not her partner. The other guy went to retrieve a camera. It doesn’t say that he wasn’t coming back. It doesn’t say anything about how the “boyfriend ditched her” or “man left her behind”. If those situations were abusive and places those women in danger against their explicit wishes why it’s not in the article? I’m assuming it’s because there are no other important details. All we know is that women were left behind by someone walking faster. You somehow after reading the same article understood that all those women were saying they didn’t want to be abandoned while nothing like that is in the article. Then you claim everyone who disagrees is a misogynistic monster.
Of course it’s possible I missed it. If you show me the parts of the article about the situation you’re describing I will of course agree with you it was abusive and sexist behavior on the part of the partner.
This isn’t deflection, it’s someone trying to start a deeper conversation. You know, the whole point of a comment section?
Society is very fucking sexist. In my experience (which is a small dataset), unprepared women are more likely to go on a hike with a man than the other way around. Men like to play the provider/protecter role. Women know that. Society has taught women to put themselves in a vulnerable position to appeal to men (movies… constantly). Some women seem to actually want to be “rescued” by thier man as well. Dunno if that is social training or something else. So yeah, it’s very sexist, but it is also a breaking of the social contract, and it is unacceptable. Even is the roles are reversed it would be unacceptable. It’s just less likely to happen.
Dunno if that is social training or something else.
It’s the patriarchy.
In general yes. But is the desire to be “rescued” from the patriachy or is it somehow a leftover instinct from a bygone era that the patriachery reinforces?
You’re overlooking that men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience. When they invite their inexperienced girlfriend, they have a duty of care towards them. You’re right, sex doesn’t matter and this could be reversed, but you need to ask yourself where the statistic lie.
This is not sexist. You’ve found the wrong conclusion.
Many of the women described having some level of dependence on their partner in nature. They may not have been carrying the right supplies or enough water, or were not familiar with the terrain, making them feel vulnerable.
“It’s such a common thing,” said Julie Ellison, the first female editor-in-chief of Climbing magazine who now works as an outdoor lifestyle photographer. She has heard “so many stories” about men fumbling outdoor dates. “There’s that male ego element to it that’s not necessarily evil or ill-intentioned, but it usually has a negative effect on the partner who’s being left behind.”
Yep! Also touched on in the article.
men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience
I live in hiking prime area. This is not true in any way.
Men historically outnumber women hikers, but the split is relatively close. Like 55-57% of hikers are men with women and non-binary making up the rest.
Not enough to suggest the “men are innately better hikers” thing the person I was replying to was alluding to.
You’re overlooking that men tend to be attracted to this sort of activity more and may have greater experience.
They didn’t suggest men are innately better hikers. They literally said men are attracted to this hobby in larger numbers and tend to have more experience doing it.
men are attracted to this hobby in larger numbers and tend to have more experience doing it
That’s my point. I call bullshit on that.
The gender breakdown of avid hikers results in more men than women hiking. About 55-57% of hikers are men.
I’m really not trying to like argue with you or anything, I just think you’re misreading what they meant. There are more men that hike than women statistically.
This is why anecdotal evidence has little use in the real world.
Yes but the story of MJ doesn’t talk about experience. It’s just talks about gender.
because it’s rage bait. It’s not about hiking, it’s about men being awful to women and fanning the flames of gender war rage.
fanning the flames of gender war rage.
Seeing as that’s you doing it I would think it’s only you who can stop it.
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Poor you. Why don’t you just block me then? It might help with your rage problem.
The fact you think calling people out on their shit is rage, is very telling.
Disagreement isn’t rage, but when you live in a world of sensationalized articles for ‘news’, no doubt that is the lens through which you view the world.
You don’t have to read or participate in these posts, y’know.
You don’t want to be here and we don’t want you here - just leave.
People are so weird. I once worked closely with a single woman, and the boss had a big Christmas party for the managers, and she brought a guy that she’d been dating for a couple months, and was getting close to.
For some reason that none of us ever learned, he decided to completely ignore her that night. He knew nobody at that party but her, and yet he pretended like he’d never seen her before. It wasn’t a big party,maybe 20 people, so we ALL saw what was going on. Eventually, he took her home, but they never went out again.
I asked her about what happened, and he wouldn’t discuss it. He dropped her off at home, and they never spoke about it on the ride home or after. The guy just decided to turn into a different person that night.
BTW, she was a really cool person, pretty, fashionable, great hair, super smart, funny, great job, owned her own house, etc. The loss was entirely his.
Ugh, that is the stupidest, irritating thing. I felt disgust through the screen.
There are lots of parties where I don’t speak with my partner at all, but we’ve been together for nearly 15 years. That’s not how it works in your first… I dunno, three years?
Was she dating my ex-husband? He would do this to me when we went rock climbing. To the point where the people there didn’t recognize me at all even though he worked there.
Damn what a cowardly way to dump someone. Is it really that much of a pain in the ass to stick it out for a couple of days until you’re not literally abandonning someone somewhere they didn’t expect to be alone? Bunch of douchy and selfabsorbed asshats.
For context, angel’s landing is one of probably the top 5 most famous hikes in the country. It’s so popular that they have timed entry, and you have to book a time well in advance. It would be very, very, very hard to get lost, you can see the spot you started from pretty much the whole way, you are part of a steady stream of people, and there’s cell service. There is no “alone” on that hike.
People have died on that hike, but if you exclude suicide and people who were intentionally going off trail to get pictures closer to cliff edges, it’s very unlikely. You are probably safer getting dumped there than at a restaurant in a part of town you aren’t familiar with.
I would not put that anywhere near the same category as guy who left his girlfriend on a mountaineering expedition.
My comment was mainly aimed at the general thought of just abandonning someone on any hike, not necessarily this particular one, but the whole “alpine divorce” thing in itself.
People can have problems on a hike that aren’t deadly but still require support. If a partner is slow it might be because they’re getting sick or injured. Even if the chance of them dying is low, it’s still your responsibility as their partner to look after them. No one else on that trail is going to have a higher responsibility to support them.
It seems like the man and the women in this story both had different expectations for what kind of partnership they had.
If I was hiking with a buddy where we were on equal footing and both self-sufficient, and we were pissing each other off, then I wouldn’t feel like I had any special responsibility to them over any of the normal shared responsibilities that all hikers have to each other. We would owe each other common courtesy, but wouldn’t need to babysit each other on the trail.
If I felt like I was responsible for the other person, because they weren’t self-sufficient, then of course I wouldn’t leave them behind.
If I felt like I was in a relationship with the other person, and we were pissed off with each other, then maybe I would hike ahead for a few minutes to give each other some time to cool off. But I wouldn’t leave them to hike the hike on their own, if I knew they wanted to hike it together. I would care about my partner in a different way and want to prioritize the relationship vs. a buddy I was friends with.
Although I guess it would depend on the friendship I had too. There are some friends who I would feel comfortable hiking separately to the summit if we pissed each other off. And there’s other friends who I think I would not do that with.
I could even imagine being partners with someone who would prefer to hike separately to reach the summit and then try to make up there.
I’m sure that things vary from place to place, but wherever I’ve been in nature, strangers are very quick to check on you and help you out if you seem to be struggling. Whether it’s hiking, mountain biking, skiing, or anything else, we all know that it could be us someday.
I think this comment section is so contentious because there is a whole range of behaviors and experiences that this story brings up in people. And we’re all trying to speak in generalities about situations that are very nuanced when they happen in the real world.
Is the timed entry a new thing? I remember just walking in to the park. Maybe I was in the off season because it had just snowed the week before and there were still a few campsites closed.
I think it’s relatively new. It might also be seasonal. Last time I was there, they let you hike all the way up to the scout lookout before you need the permit. Basically as soon as you get to the bottleneck of the chain section.
Well, damn. That particular location would suck to be turned around at, because you’re so close…
But I can also see how having too many people at the last outcropping would lessen the experience for everyone.
My guess is once you get too many people on that segment, you’ll inevitably get someone moving crazy slow, and people going off trail to get around them.
The spot you have to turn around at least has a great view, lol.
Or to call it off before you start hiking. Or even to stick together not happy and not liking each other on your way back
Don’t expect good things from shitty people.
Women need to learn how to identify womanizers if they don’t want to be womanized. Most of them don’t care though so it keeps happening.
I hear what you’re saying about staying away from shitty people, but anyone can lie about who they are short term, and when women are wary of all men in order to stay safe, we get hit with “not all men.” It’s a real lose-lose.
Just a few weeks ago I saw a dude have an argument with his partner on top of Cradle Mountain and then head down before her. We kept an eye on her to make sure she made it down OK (sketchy down climbing). He was at the bottom of the steep bit on his phone when we got there… She caught up and they seemed fine, but it was a weird vibe.
I went with my ex to a local waterfall once. It was pretty dry, so I wanted to explore the top of the falls a bit since it’s normally not accessible. It’s very flat up there, and I kept back from the edge since I don’t like heights anyway, but she got mad at me for being up there since she didn’t feel comfortable coming out with me.
So a couple minutes later, I’m done poking about, and I turn around and she’s nowhere to be seen. Now I’m worried she went over the side and something happened to her. I started looking over the edge of the hill leading up to the falls and trying to see if she’s down there, but there was enough water to still be spraying the rocks. My foot slides out on a wet patch, and now I’m falling down the rock face!
I crashed off at least 3 ledges on my way down, and was flipping over and trying to grab onto things to catch myself, but there was nothing but rock and moss, but I finally come to a stop. I have no clue how I didn’t die or break anything. It was one of the scariest moments of my life. After I checked on my own life, I saw she wasn’t there, so I made my way to the car. She was there just being annoyed.
She seemed to think I deserved it for not listening to her for saying it was dangerous, while it was not the activity I was doing that led to me falling, but that I thought I needed to be looking for her after she disappeared without saying she was going to the car. I don’t think she must have realized it was not just one rock I fell off of, but probably at least 10+ feet of rock, but needless to say I wasn’t very appreciative of her lack of concern. I was just grateful to be alive at that point. I was sore for a few days and had some bruises that lasted a couple months. Was I a jerk? I don’t feel so, but I don’t believe remote places in the outdoors are the place to put arguments ahead of everyone’s safety either way. If I would have gotten hurt badly, who knows how long she would have sat there before looking for me.
Damn, you’re both lucky things didn’t go worse. “I told them it was too dangerous, then I left them alone anyway, and they died from their injuries” would be a hell of a thing to have on one’s conscience, let alone one thing to admit on the defendant’s stand.
I mean, you’re (presumably) an adult who can take responsibility for your own actions, but if she was truly concerned for your safety, abandoning you makes no sense. No matter how skilled my partner might be, I’d be waiting at the edge watching like a hawk, not saying anything, just making sure their stunt didn’t end the way I feared it would. There’s plenty of time for arguments about it when we’re both back on solid ground. Literally turning away and walking off at the height of a dangerous act while alone in nature doesn’t say “I’m concerned about your safety” as much as it says “I’m emotionally-immature and can’t prioritize your actual well-being above my personal feelings.”
Glad to hear she’s an ex.
You are very correct. We both could have regretted the events much more than we did.
When I see parents take their smaller children places, I count them as “not dangerous.”
This is where I was.
People will photograph each other chilling there all the time. I don’t want to get close enough to see over the edge since I don’t like heights, I just wanted to walk on the creekbed.
This is still at the top of the falls, but more indicitive of the side of the falls where she “disappeared” on me and what I was looking for her in. What I bounced off on the way down was three or so of those big boulders to the right of the tree there.
IMO, that incident was ¾ your fault.
I’m sure I deserve partial credit. I was in a bad place mentally back then so I did a lot of stupid and inconsiderate things I regret. But I’m also now with someone who wouldn’t walk away from me even when I am being an idiot because they care about my safety, so I learned a lot of lessons since then.
I mean what else are you gonna do? Have an escalating fight while you are in an emotionally unstable state? Walking away to calm down is just the right thing to do often, that doesnt change just because you are on a hike.
The cases in the article sound like there is more to them though.
Walk back silently while in sight of each other, or if you really need time and space, take it while neither of you continues to hike. Or just fucking get a hold of your emotions to finish the damn hike.
Especially on a hike, it’s far safer when you’re not super upset about something.
You can have a fight and still look out for each other’s wellbeing. If this was a walk on very safe flat terrain, maybe you’d have a point, but this was kilometres of intense scrambling and climbing over steep boulder fields with serious risk of injury. I’m a OK rock climber, and there were parts that freaked me out.
Astounding that there are men in here defending these dickbags left right and centre. And presumably other men just like yep good point bro, technically correct. Please dump me and run off a fucking cliff you spineless turdweasels
This idea that it’s totally normal and cool to start a hike with someone and then decide to leave them behind is mindboggling.
Yeah. Even if you figure out halfway through that you hate spending time with them you just fucking walk the rest of the way with them in silence. Sometimes things don’t go how you hoped and you have a bad day. Deal with it.
This! Fucking grow up
This sounds like an actual nightmare.
Lemmy is better than Reddit but there are still terrible trolls and awful people here.
I’m willing to accept that it’s better in ways not relevant to this discussion, but tbh the ubiquitous casual misogyny is far more inescapable here imo
yes, I feel like Lemmy has a misogyny problem :-(
being critical of a news article isn’t misogyny…
You have no room to speak with the amount of terrible views about women you share on the daily.
I’ll admit that I had not noticed it before but it makes sense in light of other threads I have seen. There are a lot of people who act just like the meme angry vegan, the meme angry incel, or the meme angry tankie around here. It is disappointing, but humans are going to be human no matter where they are.
There are absolutely legit reasons to leave someone behind on a hike.
And I’ve heard zero of them in these stories from women.
Well, leave behind yes, abandon no. If they’re injured and you need to go for help, you make them safe as you can and then go. He did not make any effort to make her safe.
I actually expected far more defenders than I am seeing. Mostly I see some forms of victum blaming, though not directly defending the men’s actions. I do see some discussion too, which is pretty rare on subjects like this. Still a long way to go, but it’s a baby step forward I guess.
A bunch of tech-focused men have shitty views about women? Color me shocked. /s
The guys who can’t muster up the courage to talk to a woman sure have a lot of opinions about them, don’t they?
And some men wonder why some women would choose a bear.
A bear would totally run away and abandon you on a hiking trail. No difference there.
Speaking from experience.
*results may vary in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and Alaska.
TBF bears are pretty great. Bears probably win over women, too.
I would choose a teddy bear over any human in the woods.
Some of these comments are absolutely disgusting, many of you guys desperately need to talk to a therapist. If you read a story like this and feel the need to defend your gender identity, you have some deep-seated insecurity which you should take seriously before it starts harming your relationships with others. I am saying this as a man who had deep-seated insecurity which took a heavy toll on my relationships before seeking years of therapy. It’s not as expensive as it sounds, I promise, and it could totally change your life for the better.
MJ and a new partner – he was not exactly her boyfriend, and the pair were not exclusive…[MJ] could not shake the feeling that something was “off”; indeed, MJ would learn on this trip that her partner was seeing other women.
This is like saying you agreed to go dutch on a date, and then feeling that something was “off” because you couldn’t shake the feeling he was intending to split the bill.
No shit?
Articles like this are 99% trash
So are some comments.
So two or three “credible” stories over a century qualify for this headline? Seems a bit inflated.
I mean… it’s not a nice thing to do to someone but… eh…
What is everyone’s problem with women sharing these stories though? We’re not allowed to speak about these instances because you decided it doesn’t happen frequently enough?
That’s not what I’m saying. Don’t make it about something it’s not.
If something happens a handful of times… it’s barely a story.
That’s literally what your comment is saying - that this type of abuse doesn’t happen enough to warrant attention. Why do you have a problem with women sharing stories like this?
Apparently you can’t read.
I think sharing is fine, and the actions of these boys are deplorable. But the story makes it out to be a major trend, instead of just sharing the stories. And to me, that is likely to make it happen more often, not less. So that bothers me.
“Shhhh don’t talk about abuse you’ve suffered because it might bring more abuse”
Do you ever look yourself in the mirror? You keep misrepresenting what other people are saying and being an ass, but in another comment you complain it’s impossible to have a conversation with someone because they are being scornful.
I’m guessing this is why you have a new account; probably banned a lot for being a dick.
I was thinking the same. Some people just enjoy a fight. Triggers adrenaline and such. I do feel bad for them that they don’t have better ways to get happy feels.
I’d agree, and this sounds more of a failure of communication and expectation setting from the get go, from both parties.
Why would the woman in the story have to express that she expects her partner to hike with her the whole time?
Edit: Who are all you men who think that it’s acceptable to abandon your hiking partner while on a hike?? What the fuck is happening here? Fuck all of you.
Because it obviously wasn’t clear to her partner. Instead of assuming, communicate. Women do this often and yes I’m generalizing but men aren’t mind readers. Different people will have different expectations unless you talk and agree.
Why didn’t these men communicate to their partner that they no longer wanted to hike with them?
How is it not clear that when planning a hike where there is only 2 people, that the assumption is those 2 people stay together unless there’s an emergency?
That’s the whole issue here, right? Why are these men deciding on their own that they no longer want to hike with these women and are abandoning them on the mountain? Why didn’t these men communicate with their partner?
You are again assuming. It’s obvious you shouldn’t. The confusion is your own.
Balanced take. This kind of thing is very veryserious. But also a dilution of the term Alpine Divorce, which people have died from.
Some people, not anyways men, have been taught, rather mercilessly, that they have to be self sufficient. These people get aggravated, even angry when someone else fails to live up to the standard that they (unfairly) were forced to. There can be an instinctive feeling that it is somehow an injustice to them.
That doesn’t excuse abandoning someone in the wilderness. Often these people struggle to learn to be a kind helper.
Also, none of this is meant to excuse the behavior. It is possible to understand “why” without condoning it. When confronting this it is important to be firm that it is unacceptable, as well as understanding that it may be a struggle to relearn.
Co-opting alpine divorce, which regularly involves a murder attempt, feels weird? Just call it the sierra split.
I do wonder how much of this is a cheapening of the weekend getaway, where you’d go to a B&B upstate, find out your potential partner snores, drinks to much, is rude to service workers, or views a toothbrush as optional. You’d sigh and split. It’s just a bad weekend.
But with this, camping and hiking is a complication. You’re drinking warm filtered water from a Nalgene, eating granola because someone forgot to bring a lighter. Also, it’s raining and all your socks are wet. Did you bring anything to wash dishes? Ah, there are no dishes. You smell like smoke and are covered in sand.
Granted, you can do camping/hiking well, but I’d bet some of these cases are from people doing it poorly, trying to save a buck by avoiding more expensive weekend getaways.
