Happened to me a few days ago, and I just can’t believe how bad this redesign is!!
It’s hard to comprehend what goes into the heads of that dev team, but they basically ruined everything nice about the platform. The API changes were pretty much a fatal shot already, but this new redesign seems to be what tipped the scales for me, and hopefully many more.
It’s a great time to switch to Lemmy, and I think I’m going to make the effort to stick around and abandon the habit of opening reddit multiple times per day.
Do you think forcing this re-design will bring more people here? I’m hoping for that. Reddit betrayed us and I can’t find it me to keep forgiving them for every horrible, anti-user decision.
I noticed in some moderator subreddit, that it is planned to kill new.reddit.com as well. Old will likely stay for longer, but new is what I got used to, and if they take it down I won’t bother getting used to the newer, garbage UX.
As an ex-redditor, my only reaction is
Lemmy users talking to Reddit users.
The hurdle is content. Lemmy has an overflow of politics and mindless memes, but it needs to have more content beyond that to attract people in.
Everyone who wants Lemmy to succeed should give redditors a reason to stay by posting in some of the smaller and more niche communities.
The Gaming Comunitys on lemmy are also alright.
Yet without an audience, it’s just people posting into the void.
I think we need to accept that we aren’t going to become Reddit pt. 2 anytime soon. Smaller steps might be a good way to go - e.g. if a small sub dedicated to a single game is too small, then post in a medium level one like its genre.
But also, the main reason I stopped recommending the Fediverse to people - well aside from the fact that nobody was listening:-P - wasn’t just lack of content, and instead mainly bc there are so very many technical glitches. I eventually left Kbin entirely bc it never seemed to progress anywhere, but everywhere I’ve gone on Lemmy, while it has been better, is still far from perfect. For instance, I have to re-login every single time I come here - even on the same day, and sometimes also just randomly while browsing, both mobile browser and also desktop.
We who are here are okay that it is alpha version software, but the kind of people on Reddit who have remained are not. Consent matters: we haven’t enticed them here, and we need to be okay with that, or else do a LOT better job trying - which will take time and effort, which is underway - and either way it would help to accept the situation as it is not just how we might dream that it could be otherwise.
Chicken and the egg. Nobody is posting or commenting because nobody is posting or commenting.
I’ve decided to ignore waiting for others to post and just post. Some communities I’ve done this in are still voids. Others have actually come to life somewhat. Still slow, but at least other people are now consistently engaging.
The one thing I have noticed is the proliferation of overly niche communities rather than congregating in larger hubs and then organizing into smaller communities as the userbase scales.
I do believe that was an early mistake made throughout the platform.
Since it is functionally unreversible, my personal solution has been to try and make networks of these communities by encouraging sidebars to reference each other, share mods, and partake in cross posting.
They can also just merge like the cooking communities did some weeks ago
That’s what I was suggesting yeah:-). That’s awesome that you are following through, and hey if it is working then that’s the proof!:-P
I would presume that it is attracting existing Lemmies to those new communities (well, new-to-them, or at least far healthier than the used to be), though my point about technical issues applies more to people who remained on Reddit. Especially those who already tried Lemmy but didn’t like it and thus left, which could be for both reasons - lack of content and technical capabilities.
How about not attacking people who express a liking for Windows?
I’m more of a doors person, myself.
Yeah! Like rimworld.gallery
Reddit has zero content. Lemmy has zero content. Only people.
It’s worse than that. The politics is a far left echo chamber which appeals to a small number of chronically online but repels everyone else.
Lemmy is not much farther left than reddit is.
Also the younger generations who spend more time on these sites lean left to begin with. They aren’t going to be repelled by people shitting on Biden.
Monthly active users are 35% lower than July last year when Reddit turned off the external API. Just 42,188 now. Since then there are 45% fewer servers online. Average comments per month are up, which means fewer and fewer people are posting more and more. This is the definition of an online circlejerk. I’m glad you like it this way but normal people do not, and these stats will only get worse in time.
MAUs are counted by commenters and posters. The stats could just as well show that there are fewer people engaging for the sake of engagement, which was a huge problem last summer.
I am a leftist who participated on Reddit for more than a decade without any issues, and I catch bans on Lemmy for not being “left” enough. The politics on Lemmy are so far outside anything resembling mainstream, you get bans for daring to quote Jacobin or the fucking internationale.
From where I am standing, as someone who has actually studied political science, Lemmy looks a lot more like right wing trolls pretending to be leftists
I don’t like Trump at all and not a fan of Biden but there are lots of vicious comments to the point where I have felt tempted to just skip the comments on political posts.
I’m right there with you. This is even more toxic than Reddit.
The redesign was garbage ux from the start and they ignored absolutely all feedback for years. It was fundamentally flawed from the very beginning and they buried their heads in the sand because they knew most people would still use it.
Most people seemed to use the official app anyway, which is even worse, so I don’t see many people changing over this. I was one of the people who said when old Reddit was gone so was I, I just didn’t expect them to do something worse before that time came.
Won’t change much. Look at OP, complaining about the betrayal and going back several times a day. Old habits are hard to break.
When RiF broke I never went back, i need lemmy to prosper or I will be out of doomscrolling app
Honestly I kind of like that lemmy has less content at the moment. When I’ve seen everything I’m interested in I close it and do something else, rather than doing nothing but scroll.
Though I do miss the long format text stuff a bit.
What app do you use to browse on mobile? I’m using Memmy but had trouble posting.
I’m using Jerboa, it’s not perfect but I’m too lazy to change lmao
It’s not habit, it’s that there are many things on Reddit that are not on Lemmy in any meaningful sense yet. I use reddit for those communities that don’t exist here and I don’t feel like quitting, but Lemmy gets my full attention for everything else.
Using both platforms at once is more about necessity and patience. Lemmy will grow, I’m certain of that, but I’m not going to pretend it’s anywhere near active enough yet to fully replace every aspect of reddit. It will, but it isn’t there yet.
Same. I tried to quit (and even deleted my account) but realized that the Lemmy equivalent of my home city community isn’t yet on here (and there’s also a buy nothing subreddit that’s been helpful for getting baby stuff). I use RedReader and I’m only subscribed to three local subreddits.
Their motto seems to consistently be: “Drive out the old users who remember what we used to be. Rein in the new users who embrace the enshitification and change from content aggregation to social media”
deleted by creator
It’s kinda hard to cut out something like reddit 100%. I technically stopped using Reddit, I’ve only been on Lemmy since RiF was shut down since I’m mainly a mobile user. I logged into my reddit account once and that was to commission an art piece. And that’s something I’ll probably keep doing because it’s been the best experience for commissions.
There’s also search inquiries that you can get actual answers to just by typing reddit at the beginning of your search. Like when my TV started having an issue I tried normal search results and forums, absolutely zero help. All the answers were either buy a new TV or call a tech, and the people that dealt with techs said it was minimum $300 for the tech to tell them they had to take the TV for a minimum 2 weeks. So I tried a search by typing Reddit in front and I found a solution within the first two posts. Lead me to a YouTube channel where the guy showed how to fix the issue in 10 minutes with just a piece of tape.
Reddit will keep getting worse, but there will still be useful posts from it’s better days. I wouldn’t say that it’s that consumers have no spine, but rather it’s a mix of old habits and sunken cost fallacy. But it will reach a point like Myspace and Facebook did and lose a large amount of users.
deleted by creator
I tried Fiverr a few times, especially after the Reddit changes. But i haven’t enjoyed my experiences so far. I’ve also tried deviant art and art station, but so far HungryArtists has been a great experience. Would love to have that on Lemmy.
That’s why Meta and Xitter don’t let you do anything without being logged in. Fortunately that’s something Reddit still allows.
Dear god, now that you say this I realize it’s just a matter of when. Why is enshittification so rampant?
deleted by creator
Xitter? You mean Twix? ;-)
So now there’s a NewNew Reddit? That IPO is getting ever closer, guess they’ll be thrashing around all the harder in the lead up to that to try to show some kind of path to profitability.
Yeh try opening reddit in incognito w/o logging in. It’s basically a mobile design, but now for desktop as well. They haven’t even implemented Compact mode. It’s unreal. Half of it is wasted space, and it looks so green. Baby vomit vibes.
Can’t even view it because I’m using a VPN.
Which should tell you enough, tbh.
Huh. Kinda looks like the front page of twitter. I hate it. I mean, I don’t go to reddit anymore unless I’m forced to Google something and even then I gotta turn off my VPN first, but still. Yuck.
Wait even if you go to old.reddit.com?
Edit: old still seems to be fine
Old is fine, and the 2nd redesign is currently at new.reddit.com (but it’s possible it could be gone at some point).
“How do we get rid of old reddit?”
“Make a new new reddit, and the make new reddit old reddit.”
“Promote this man.”
deleted by creator
You can see it by going to sh.reddit.com. A lot of people are getting forced to this if they try to use new.reddit.
old.reddit supposedly remains unaffected, so if you use that domain specifically you should be fine. Assuming the Admins aren’t lying.
Soon old.old.reddit
old reddit the only way to use reddit for me. When it’s gone I will have to waste my time exclusively here.
I have a community for a project on Reddit which is the only reason I use it anymore, I’ve tried using new Reddit so many times but it’s so painful that I really think I’m just let the community die if they force me off old
There is one community over there which I miss here, but only so long there is old reddit.
The redesign would be bad if considerably improved. Because as it is now, it’s simply awful.
Things that they did not get:
- People might not like a crammed interface, but they certainly don’t like to unnecessarily roll stuff.
- Desktops typically have a horizontal screen. Vertical space is at premium, but horizontal space is cheap. That leads to “stripes” of content, not to square blocks.
- “Muh consisrency! Mobile n desktop inrurrfaces must look teh same!” leads to either a shitty mobile interface, a shitty desktop interface, or both. Never neither.
- If you can guess that a user is using a desktop interface (YES YOU CAN, you spam the shit out of the users if they dare to use the mobile interface), then you can also guess that desktop users won’t “download your appz XD”.
- Everything else.
Reddit is a dogshow but Lenny has issues too.
Maybe it’s my instance or some other config but when I open lennmy it’s just wall to wall communist/anti capitalist, open source wanking and musk hate.
Look, people, musk is a cunt, capitalism is ruining not only the planet but yes also the hearts and minds of people and proprietary software probably should be a little less pervasive than what it is but can we, just for one fucking nano second discuss literally anythingbg else?
In my experience (and again perhaps just with whatever I’ve been able to set up) lemmy is tiresome, parochial and very much a one-dimensional experience.
Can any of us remember when Reddit was actually fun? A little of the silliness that made it endearing? Dumb stories about Kevin, incessant nonsense about bacon, when AMA was a fucking legendary little nook of the internet? Surely some of those are the things this community would want to foster, a little light heartedness? Look at the popularity of the Trekkie stuff, nothing to learn there?
It’s cool though, I don’t have to come here and this has all helped me realise that. I’m literally only on here typing this because I’m taking a dump rn.
:)
deleted by creator
Hey, 20 bucks is 20 bucks.
Dude, yesterday was the Superbowl and there was no thread for it (other than one hating on it) on the front page of Lemmy. That was a depressing realization to me.
It’s not mainstream, not even close. It literally is what you said and some memes. Maybe one day it’ll have a better breadth of content. Reddit content right now is much better to the general user.
Also taking a dump rn.
I would truly like Lemmy if there were social communities like in reddit instead of what you just described. 2something4you, fantasy, hfy, roleplaying, cats, yurop, etc etc. We need all of that fun stuff
All of those things exist here. I feel like you guys haven’t explored other instances maybe because while the parent commenter is right, there is a lot of the topics they’re tired of, there’s plenty of other stuff. And there’s plenty of fantasy, role playing, cats, there are a few 2[blank]4you spots.
i just use the Everything option in Sync. I expect it to just bring ‘everything’ available in lemmy
Me too. I spent 8 months blocking communities and it’s starting to get bearable.
I’ve tried roleplaying on Reddit before but I could never get the format of it. just feels really weird rping on a thread with multiple nested posts instead of one constant scroll. I feel like discord is better for RP
Nope. Sorry. Best I can do is 700 Linux communities
There is [email protected] and a good number of DND and TTRPG communities.
I don’t know what that means.
Can I see that from my lemme account?
Until the fedivrs has a eli5 about how it all works, even tech minded people like will find it a frustrating experience to find subs that I want to participate in
What are you using to browser Lemmy? The website and the apps usually just allow you to click on links like the one before to visit a new community. And that is valid for every lemmy instance, so you should be able to see it from your Lemmy.world account.
Interesting communities for you
Honestly you don’t have to mute a lot of communities to get a feed with less of those.
And you’d be surprised how better it is to engage with people you disagree with here as long as you’re civil, with the exception of a few trolls or extremely online people.
It’s definitely a big step up from Reddit and the quality of the content is great when curated and if you don’t open it more than 2 or 3 times a day for less than 10min.
It’s not civil though. You get banned at the drop of a hat for gently questioning the commie dogma even as a leftist.
The frustrating part is that these communities are extremely far outside of the academic mainstream but they simply refuse to hear it. I am far from a troll, you can check my comment history if you want. But I keep catching bans for merely being a voice for a different kind of leftist thought. It’s exhausting.
You’re probably not leftist if you’re getting banned for expressing your views.
Caveat: I haven’t read your comment history but I’m going to now and I’ll come back and edit this comment with a more informed view.
Edit: I’ve read a lot of your comments and as best I can tell you’re a Social Democrat and that’s probably the issue. Feel free to correct me.
Lmao you’re exactly the kind of person socsa is talking about
I don’t really care one way or another, I have my own political views.
I was more trying to unpack why this person kept getting banned.
A lot of people who claim to be leftist aren’t actually leftist and this can be shocking.
Oh no, they’re merely quite radical in the context of US politics, or mainstream leftist in the context of Scandinavian politics! You’re right – they must be shunned and mocked for this, that’s a surefire way for a fringe group to win hearts and minds…
I don’t think many consider a Social Democrat radical.
Social Democrats don’t wish to dismantle Capitalism. Hardly a radical take.
On the contrary, I think your information bubble is pretty limited if you think that a social-democratic position isn’t on the leftward fringe of the Overton window in America, where large parts of the political spectrum believe “the invisible hand” obviates the need for market regulations, and even the most basic and punitive of social safety-net programs get tarred as “communism!” by the mainstream right.
Yeah America isn’t the world and I don’t listen to the opinions of people who are ignorant on this topic (to be clear I’m not directing that at you) what I’m saying is that people certainly do hold the view you’ve described; that a Social Democrat is radical left, but that simply is not the case when you have some cursory knowledge of political theory (I assume you agree with this).
The whole issue is this kind of pigeonholing and purity testing. My most controversial conjecture is first that political science isn’t a static thing, and that so much of “the left” seems more interested in relitigating the cold war and “eat the rich” fan service than actually engaging in pragmatic policy debates. This is why i much prefer to discuss politics in terms of first principles instead of labels, and for whatever reason, this rubs a lot of leftists the wrong way.
I believe that individual liberty is essential to democratic agency, and that democratic agency is critical to the administration of a just state. Any socialist state must rest on this foundation and not route through autocracy. You will find that I am very focused on the human side of socialist praxis - what are so many people skeptical of these ideals? What does modern socialism actually look like in practice, and how do modern socialists win support of a relatively comfortable middle class? I see social justice as a key aspect of this, as it tears down social structures which marginalize and exclude. This is also why I balk at some of the more obnoxious “class warfare” rhetoric on Lemmy in particular, because it serves to divide and exclude, not unite and elevate.
I am very skeptical of overly utopian visions, and liturgical populism, as these are historically distractions which serve to divide workers the same way culture wars do. I actually believe that these are some of the primary roadblocks to the above questions, and the rhetoric in online leftist spaces is often extremely counterproductive in this way.
I would describe myself as something like a democratic socialist, leaning more towards the libertarian/syndicalist side of the spectrum, but again - I tend to see such labels as uselessly modernist. I think material scarcity is a primary driver of economic injustice, and a big part my ideology revolves around substituting capitalism’s role in resolving scarcity with more egalitarian economic structures. Rather than setting the world in fire, this starts with some basic things like mandating worker shares and worker councils for all industries. In general, the idea is to extend and scale the whole “means of production” to a more generalized labor landscape where we aren’t just dealing with factories and machines, via wholesale democratization of the workplace.
Political labels are just a heuristic to shortcut longer conversations.
Sure fidelity is lost but time saved is nice. I wouldn’t be worried using them so long as you know what you mean when you use them.
It sounds like you’re conflating socialism with deprivation of individual liberties, if you can’t conceive of a socialist state where that isn’t the case then I’m not sure what to say.
Modern socialists that aren’t authoritarian aren’t advocating for that.
However a socialist state and maximising individual liberties are in opposition to each other. How can we expect the best outcome for the majority without curbing certain individual rights? Like for example, firearm ownership.
If you agree that capitalism must be dismantled then you’re a leftist in the true sense.
If you think there are redeeming qualities to capitalism then you’re not leftist.
Lemmy in my experience is just leftists arguing with each other about the best way to dismantle capitalism.
Anyone who thinks capitalism is salvageable gets berated, in my opinion, rightly so.
I am not at all stating that autocracy is a feature of socialism, I am very much arguing for the exact opposite of that. And to that end, I refuse to make tyrants into folk heroes, as so many internet leftists do, and acknowledge that this is one of the things which puts me in conflict with many of these communities. Refusing to learn from the mistakes of past socialists isn’t cool, it’s stupid.
When I speak of liberty being a necessary condition of democratic agency, I am talking about things like free expression, civil rights and free assembly. Again, this is pretty simple - you can’t have democracy without the ability to freely engage with political questions. I absolutely agree that if online leftist communities were more open to engaging honestly about the failings of past movements in the regard, this conversation would definitely be extraneous. First principles, and whatnot.
In terms of capitalism itself, it is the manifested corruption of a few organic economic primitives. Capital itself is merely a tool, like markets, and commerce, and fiat value proxies. If you dismantle the corruption and place control of these tools in the hands of the people, you have dismantled capitalism. Good job team. This is the thesis of democratic socialism, and it is far from controversial among actual democratic socialist. It is only controversial among people whose knowledge of socialism is primarily built on edgy revolution fan service.
At first, I registered on Lemmy.world but, after a while, it was unbearable. Sometimes I couldn’t log in because the servers were overloaded, sometimes because they were updating. When they decided to defederate certain instances, I went to eslemmy…until it disappeared without warning. I had the same luck with firefish.social. I signed up to try it out, it looked promising, but it was very slow. Now it’s dead too.
For me, Lemmy was not yet ready for the amount of users coming from Reddit.
I like being able to hear all the different narratives, but if you have sync for lemmy as your client app you can block instances now
I do hope another reddit influx will drown out the circle jerking
Why is anyone here still using reddit? What’s the point of not using reddit anymore if you still use reddit? Whats the point in saying fuck u/spez if you keep using reddit?
I’ve been exclusively on lemmy since the reddit blackout, and it’s been great.
Just give reddit up my dudes. Its shit
Momentum, there are active niche subreddits that don’t really exist on lemmy yet.
It’s a fair point, but i think it would be better to encourage those niche subreddits to jump ship to lemmy. Or create the community here yourself.
If reddit has a reason for people to stay then reddit will remain relevant and continue to make money for spez.
Recipe for instant good Lemmy community
Effort required from you: 1 hour
- Sign up two or three Lemmy accounts. 5 minutes
- Go to a niche reddit community and grab half a dozen good submissions in the last year or so. Post them to your Lemmy with different accounts. 10 minutes
- Now for the hard part. Go and create some good quality original submissions. Work hard on 2-3 good pieces of content that don’t exist on reddit. 35 minutes.
- Post links to those submissions on reddit. 5 minutes
- Spend a few seconds voting up and engaging with any commenters in your new community. 5 minutes
Even simple upvotes from your few accounts can catalyse engagement and make the community start to come together.
While browsing all, seeing the effects of #2 is a signal to block the community. When I see 10 posts from the same community in a row on all, it gets blocked.
ok cool, so what is your alternative?
Stagger posts? Make the posts a month apart?
Simple in practice but obviously harder to grow a community… but the answer is to post like a normal person. Stagger posts a few hours apart at a minimum.
Pretty solid advice
Because lemmy isn’t useful. Open the app and all I see is anti capitalism, Linux, Elon musk, and a bunch of unfunny memes
I had a specific question about Iceland yesterday I had to go to reddit for because lemmy has no Iceland community
And when reddit started it wasnt useful. I dont want to repeat what i already said in another reply but essentially it boiled down to: the only way that lemmy replaces reddit is if people create the communities here and encourage people to move here.
Reddit is great for info but its gotten quite alot worse since the blackout when alot of people deleted their comments in protest. I have had a number of situations where a comment with a bunch of replies saying “thanks that solved it” has beem deleted and my problem goes unsolved.
We all need lemmy to become more popular so it can replace reddit as a massive repository of useful information about everything.
Reddit wont be useful at all in a few more years.
Just give reddit up my dudes.
Aren’t you subscribed to this community? , 🤔
Oh! I am. If i recall, i moved to lemmy and subbed to this community when reddit went dark to keep in the loop on how the protests were going and if there had been any real impact on reddit overall. I guess i never unsubbed.
Either way, it doesn’t change anything i said.
If anything it juat raises the question of what the purpose of this community is. Is it reddit recon, is it a space to point and laugh at rhe choices reddit makes, or is it a place for those who can’t let go to cling to the past?
Any time Reddit makes a stumble is likely to generate at least a small exodus looking for alternatives. This is an example of such a moment.
In order to keep those users on Lemmy it needs to have activity. A community with no posts or only ancient posts is not attractive. Yes, Lemmy has politics and memes, but it needs more activity in other types of communities. People say as much constantly and it is obvious.
If you want Lemmy to thrive then I highly suggest you post in communities relevant to your interests.
It would also be nice if some of the largest instances didn’t ban people for not thinking Mao Zedong was a good dude.
Wait, there’s a newer redisgn than new?
You should be able to see it if you open reddit in incognito without logging in: https://reddit.com/
Looking more and more like the current version of digg.com.
This is why we teach history, kids.
it ain’t worth disabling my old redirect (which still works) to look.
“Forced” is a really weird way to describe it. Companies redesign their physical and virtual spaces all the time and people [edit: usually] don’t react like it’s an act of violence.
Funny thing is, they do. Our company’s app is in the middle of redesign. Previously the “design” was made by programmers just making it work and not really caring that much about visuals. Now there’s actual vision and concept behind the new design and yet we’ve already got some complaints. People always treat redesigns like a personal insult.
In most situations, ‘vision and concept’ just add bloat and additional clicks required to complete the same tasks as the previous, spartan/utilitarian design did.
A good example of what I’m referring to is the Metro UI of Windows 8; yes it arguably looked ‘prettier’ - but that’s largely subjective and made actually using the device worse, without 3rd party applications to restore the Windows 7 Start Menu functionality.
Sometimes, albeit not always - programmers do end up making pretty efficient UIs.
Metro would have probably been a decent layout for a dumb terminal with a touch screen. I have no idea why they thought it was a good idea for a typical computer OS.
I think it was a good idea they just stopped too soon. They should’ve made the window manager better and made a better story for legacy apps.
Instead they just went “eh you’ve got the old desktop as an app, good enough right?”
It’s like creating iOS and then having the Mac desktop as an app🤦♂️
Not in this situation, the old UI is horrible and the new one actually looks great (we got some complaints previously for how bad it looks).
It’s fair in a way though, if someone has invested time and effort into developing a workflow using a tool then the hammer company come and say 'we’re talking away the solid handle and replacing it with a soft one then of course you’ll be angry.
The worst is when they make things look like bad science fiction by moving everything into awkward places and wasting 90% of my screen with dumb looking polish that does nothing but slow performance and add bugs.
Because you take away their safe space. I went through this with every major Firefox redesign. Then i spend several hours trying to reverse the changes through css.
When its bad enough they do… hell a redesign is what killed Digg (arguments that it was already falling off aside) and new reddit is pretty dogshit.
Facebook helped establish the smaller more frequent changes as the norm vs the “redesign” from the older days.
Yes they definitely do, I remember when Facebook moved to timeline and everyone went ape shit.
deleted by creator
I don’t know if I’m the only one who feels this way, but the new design makes it look more like a social media site than a forum.
I’m sure we’ll start seeing stories/reels/shorts making a comeback as well, they just want to make it a copy of other social platforms indeed. Their brainrot knows only one thing - copy trends that make money. They had no clue what to do with reddit, and it’s apparent in every decision they’ve made. RIP Aaron Swartz. He had such a different vision. Reddit team needs to be disbanded. It looks like that’s the plan anyhow. Sell reddit and fuck everything off to whoever comes next.
Pretty sure that’s the point
The Old Reddit Redirect addon for Firefox still works.
The day that breaks, is the day when I finally come to the realization that I will have to find someplace else for niche content that isn’t available here. I’m not so sure that such a website exists. Reddit killed off all the competition.
deleted by creator
