I don’t consider myself an atheist because that whole position and subculture seems awfully confident about something that can’t actually be diagnosed.
But that said, if there IS a god that is “all powerful” and “all knowing” then he sure as shit isn’t watching my sorry ass all day and judging how many times I think about boobs.
My God, if he exists, oversees quasars annihilating entire galaxies with cosmic blowtorches of the focused fire of a billion stars. He is interwoven in the nebular that birth new planets and civilizations. He exists at all points in time simultaneously. He knows everything I will ever do, or all possible alternatives that I may ever choose, and my reasons for my decisions. He doesn’t need to test anyone. He doesn’t need me to prove shit. He doesn’t “need” anything, he is absolutely unknowable and inhuman and incapable of being harnessed into human motivations and emotions.
My God is scary and far more powerful than everyone else’s God. My God can beat up your God.
edit: I don’t care. I am not interesting in being in your club, I don’t want to belong, you can call me what you want, that’s my whole point, nothing you say matters, none of your stupid labels and need to belong matters. It’s all utterly pointless, so your “GOTCHA” comments about the definitions of words are utterly lost on me in this context. Just save your energy and go do something good for someone else.
So your God is just the universe. Which we already know exists. So we don’t have to believe in it, because it is real already. Therefore, you are an atheist too
Ah yes, the Mother Theresa approach. You know, she accepted modern medicine near the end, despite denying it to others. This is more often than not the truth of this subject amongst the “devout”.
I don’t think all-knowing exist outside of fiction, and neither do God.
But just for fun, I think there is an interesting way religious people would answer, and a more satisfying one than just saying God’s works in mysterious way.
See we can see free will as a God given power to make choice in a otherwise deterministic world.
The testing would just see what we do with his power.
And since it comes from him, it could be outside of something knowledgeable, outside of the “all”.
Or, at least to make him or his powers outside of the “all” would be the best solution to paradoxes like can ‘God create a rock he can lift?’ etc…
P.S. Obviously another way to answer the paradox and my personal belief is to discard the reality of words like all-knowing or omnipotent. But i think this view has some merits, it can’t probably be better put philosophically… (I’m not a philosopher thought ^^)
I think about this a lot, about free will to make a choice in an otherwise-deterministic universe, and the thing that gets me is… yeah, it sort of makes sense if you consider the person making the decision like a black box. A decision comes out, and it seems free.
But what goes on in the box? How can it possibly be free will? If I were making a choice to benefit myself, and I had perfect information about the options and the consequences, then wouldn’t everybody in my position make the same (objectively best) choice? If I make a non-optimal decision because I lack some information, then that’s not free will, that’s due to an external circumstance. If I make a non-optimal decision because I’m not of rational mind, then that’s not free will, that’s either an intrinsic quality of my mind, or due to external influences. If I chose to be intentionally non-rational to prove that I have free will, the idea of free will itself and the need to prove it would be the external influence driving me.
If the choice was just one of just one of preference, then the preference is either one I was born with, or the product of outside influences. Maybe there’s somebody who can logic themselves into liking cauliflower au gratin without reference to subjective sensory experience, or cultural significance, and I just can’t imagine how?
First of all, i don’t think we can reduce choices to something to optimize. You can’t know everything and your benefit is a pretty unknown variable too. Being rational is great but also not suitable for every choice, it’s not that that i would call free will.
Now the idea that what we are born as and every experience from then on shape you and your choice is a good hypothesis. It means we humans are just as deterministic as everything else.
Then free will is just the term we use for the unknown and unknowable in us. Like when we call rolling a dice random. But it’s not a real physical thing.
But here is where my proposal can still be a good hypothesis too…
There is one thing that is a black box to our knowledge, not our biology or our brain, but our conscience.
We don’t really know what it is yet. We know a lot of biology and we’re getting better and better at understanding our brain. But our subjective experiences are not explained by science. And thus in it could lie something not deterministic.
(As a parallel, just like we don’t know how to interpret quantum mechanics, wich could have true randomness, or not…)
P.S. i do this parallel with physics because i’m more knowledgeable on it, but also because i think there is a good amount of understanding and questioning we can have on determinism through it ^^
I do tend to think of choices that way. The way I understand the human mind is as a rational optimizer of utility. The brain has to balance all manner of competing sensory and cognitive input, and the mind constantly seeks to maximize pleasure and/or relief from distress. (That’s what I mean by utility.) They say that all models are wrong, but some are useful, and this one proves very useful. Instead of dismissing people as disturbed or crazy, look for the pleasure or relief that their mind is optimizing for. Drug users destroying their lives by seeking the next fix do so because the pleasure and relief of the drug is greater than distress from alienating family and friends. This is why people have to hit rock bottom before they’ll kick the addition; it’s when the distress of ruining their lives overwhelms the lure of the drug. This model even helped me understand a friend with schizophrenia. Her decisions were quite rational, actually, but were based on distorted and false perceptions.
Now this is funny, writing it out like this brought a mini-epiphany to me, a different model of what “free will” might mean. Our minds do have the freedom to change and react differently to different sensory and cognitive inputs. We’re not automatons fixed to a preset course of action. And it makes sense that way that even protozoans have some degree of free will. Intriguing!
Ho, I see what you meant now by this optimizing idea. And yes i would agree, it’s not exempt from exceptions, but this is a good way to describe most brain functions, definitely useful. Reward circuit being a prime example, one you summed up very well.
I don’t know for protozoan but to anything complex enough to have subjective experiences yes, it could have it. Definitely an interesting idea, wich i guess would fit with God, but possible regardless.
Not defending religion, but part of religion is philosophy. It seems to be a pretty fundamental part of psychology that people need to experience hardships and overcome them. This is the path to reach a peaceful feeling that you have some control in this world and the ability to carve out a life worth living.
Why the fuck would an “”“all-knowing god”“” need to test people?
Only the most benevolent of beings test people.
For fun
Touché… It just get pretty boring being omnipotent and all-powerful
Because humans experience a lot of growth during trials and tribulations.
Fuck that; he’s all powerful, if he wants me to improve he should use his divine magic and do it himself.
I don’t consider myself an atheist because that whole position and subculture seems awfully confident about something that can’t actually be diagnosed.
But that said, if there IS a god that is “all powerful” and “all knowing” then he sure as shit isn’t watching my sorry ass all day and judging how many times I think about boobs.
My God, if he exists, oversees quasars annihilating entire galaxies with cosmic blowtorches of the focused fire of a billion stars. He is interwoven in the nebular that birth new planets and civilizations. He exists at all points in time simultaneously. He knows everything I will ever do, or all possible alternatives that I may ever choose, and my reasons for my decisions. He doesn’t need to test anyone. He doesn’t need me to prove shit. He doesn’t “need” anything, he is absolutely unknowable and inhuman and incapable of being harnessed into human motivations and emotions.
My God is scary and far more powerful than everyone else’s God. My God can beat up your God.
edit: I don’t care. I am not interesting in being in your club, I don’t want to belong, you can call me what you want, that’s my whole point, nothing you say matters, none of your stupid labels and need to belong matters. It’s all utterly pointless, so your “GOTCHA” comments about the definitions of words are utterly lost on me in this context. Just save your energy and go do something good for someone else.
Maybe not, but ceiling cat is watching you masturbate.
Ah yes, I’ve been here before… Atheism actually does not mean you believe god’s don’t exist. It literally means, and I quote…
I bet that’s you, isn’t it? Don’t reply… Just think on it.
I literally do not care.
So your God is just the universe. Which we already know exists. So we don’t have to believe in it, because it is real already. Therefore, you are an atheist too
I cannot possibly find a way to make myself care.
Doesn’t change what you are, still
My God doesn’t exist so your God would have to invent one just to beat up. And that’s what a sad, pathetic, loser god does. 😌
Ah yes, the Mother Theresa approach. You know, she accepted modern medicine near the end, despite denying it to others. This is more often than not the truth of this subject amongst the “devout”.
Because He feels like it? Why does God have to behave according to your standards?
I don’t think all-knowing exist outside of fiction, and neither do God.
But just for fun, I think there is an interesting way religious people would answer, and a more satisfying one than just saying God’s works in mysterious way.
See we can see free will as a God given power to make choice in a otherwise deterministic world.
The testing would just see what we do with his power.
And since it comes from him, it could be outside of something knowledgeable, outside of the “all”.
Or, at least to make him or his powers outside of the “all” would be the best solution to paradoxes like can ‘God create a rock he can lift?’ etc…
P.S. Obviously another way to answer the paradox and my personal belief is to discard the reality of words like all-knowing or omnipotent. But i think this view has some merits, it can’t probably be better put philosophically… (I’m not a philosopher thought ^^)
I think about this a lot, about free will to make a choice in an otherwise-deterministic universe, and the thing that gets me is… yeah, it sort of makes sense if you consider the person making the decision like a black box. A decision comes out, and it seems free.
But what goes on in the box? How can it possibly be free will? If I were making a choice to benefit myself, and I had perfect information about the options and the consequences, then wouldn’t everybody in my position make the same (objectively best) choice? If I make a non-optimal decision because I lack some information, then that’s not free will, that’s due to an external circumstance. If I make a non-optimal decision because I’m not of rational mind, then that’s not free will, that’s either an intrinsic quality of my mind, or due to external influences. If I chose to be intentionally non-rational to prove that I have free will, the idea of free will itself and the need to prove it would be the external influence driving me.
If the choice was just one of just one of preference, then the preference is either one I was born with, or the product of outside influences. Maybe there’s somebody who can logic themselves into liking cauliflower au gratin without reference to subjective sensory experience, or cultural significance, and I just can’t imagine how?
First of all, i don’t think we can reduce choices to something to optimize. You can’t know everything and your benefit is a pretty unknown variable too. Being rational is great but also not suitable for every choice, it’s not that that i would call free will.
Now the idea that what we are born as and every experience from then on shape you and your choice is a good hypothesis. It means we humans are just as deterministic as everything else.
Then free will is just the term we use for the unknown and unknowable in us. Like when we call rolling a dice random. But it’s not a real physical thing.
But here is where my proposal can still be a good hypothesis too…
There is one thing that is a black box to our knowledge, not our biology or our brain, but our conscience.
We don’t really know what it is yet. We know a lot of biology and we’re getting better and better at understanding our brain. But our subjective experiences are not explained by science. And thus in it could lie something not deterministic.
(As a parallel, just like we don’t know how to interpret quantum mechanics, wich could have true randomness, or not…)
P.S. i do this parallel with physics because i’m more knowledgeable on it, but also because i think there is a good amount of understanding and questioning we can have on determinism through it ^^
I do tend to think of choices that way. The way I understand the human mind is as a rational optimizer of utility. The brain has to balance all manner of competing sensory and cognitive input, and the mind constantly seeks to maximize pleasure and/or relief from distress. (That’s what I mean by utility.) They say that all models are wrong, but some are useful, and this one proves very useful. Instead of dismissing people as disturbed or crazy, look for the pleasure or relief that their mind is optimizing for. Drug users destroying their lives by seeking the next fix do so because the pleasure and relief of the drug is greater than distress from alienating family and friends. This is why people have to hit rock bottom before they’ll kick the addition; it’s when the distress of ruining their lives overwhelms the lure of the drug. This model even helped me understand a friend with schizophrenia. Her decisions were quite rational, actually, but were based on distorted and false perceptions.
Now this is funny, writing it out like this brought a mini-epiphany to me, a different model of what “free will” might mean. Our minds do have the freedom to change and react differently to different sensory and cognitive inputs. We’re not automatons fixed to a preset course of action. And it makes sense that way that even protozoans have some degree of free will. Intriguing!
Ho, I see what you meant now by this optimizing idea. And yes i would agree, it’s not exempt from exceptions, but this is a good way to describe most brain functions, definitely useful. Reward circuit being a prime example, one you summed up very well.
I don’t know for protozoan but to anything complex enough to have subjective experiences yes, it could have it. Definitely an interesting idea, wich i guess would fit with God, but possible regardless.
Not defending religion, but part of religion is philosophy. It seems to be a pretty fundamental part of psychology that people need to experience hardships and overcome them. This is the path to reach a peaceful feeling that you have some control in this world and the ability to carve out a life worth living.
Maybe the test says less about the tester, and more about the testee.