• Guy Dudeman@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    “But genocide!” - Dude, it’s gonna be genocide either way. Voting for a third party or abstaining entirely isn’t going to change that.

    But it could be a slightly less painful genocide if Kamala is in charge. Why not help make things marginally better?

      • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        Welcome to the real world. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. It’s terrible but it is also your best course of action.

          • photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 month ago

            That’s more of a general human trait than an American one. Yes, Americans are very fond of their exceptionalism, but valuing the lives of your own tribe and kin more than those of others is something most mammals share. I dont want war anywhere in the world. I hope you have a nice day.

              • Vespair@lemm.ee
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                1 month ago

                Nobody asks you to fix America, they asked you what choice you would make.

                Here are the options:
                -You can vote for a candidate that represents 10,000 people dying

                -You can vote for a candidate that represents 5,000 people dying

                -You can abstain and guarantee that the candidate that represents 10,000 people dying wins.

                These are your options. There are no other options. So maybe you value your own personal moral integrity more than the lives of 5,000 people, but any reasonable person will see that the second option is the only viable choice if you actually want to be decent.

                edit: formating

                  • Vespair@lemm.ee
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                    1 month ago

                    Cool man, you successfully recognized that class divide exists in the US just as much as anywhere else and that the ruling class are a minority whose decisions don’t represent the working class. Kudos to you for your next-level observation skills!

                    Here’s the thing though: even if we do spark up the fires of revolution tomorrow, you know what? It’s probably gonna take more than a month. In the meantime, there is still going to be an American president and there is still going to be an election the fate of which will still have real world impact immediately, including in regards to the Palestinian genocide. Which means even if we’re marching up on the White House in victory 8 months (imagining an impossibly best-case fictional scenario here) for now we still have the weight of the choice for President and the inordinate amount of very real lives that decision impacts, both domestically and abroad. So again, any decent person will make the moral choice for harm reduction; whether they acknowledge more needs to be on the personal level to solve the greater issues or not.

                    Stop letting your childish hateboner for America steal all the blood flow from your brain.

        • index@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          The reality is that there are thousand of choices but propaganda makes you believe there’s only two. The world and society weren’t build by the red and blue party.

          • photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 month ago

            Aspirationally, of course there are more than two choices. Realistically, only two of those have a chance at success. The US electoral system has ensured this. The way to fix the system is to elect those who want to change it for the better, not those who wish to destroy it and all it stands for.

            • index@sh.itjust.works
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              1 month ago

              Realistically until elections are over everyone has the same change of winning because ballot polls are hypothetical. Voting is not the only way you have to change things for good. The same way there’s people advocating for corrupted parties you can waste your energies on something more useful.

              • photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                1 month ago

                Sure, every voter in the country could suddenly and radically change their minds about who to vote for, but we both know that isn’t going to happen, because it’s never happened. The only time that a third party has ever upset an established party is when the Republicans threw out the Whigs before the American Civil War. They did that through years of lead-up and messaging, along with a growing emancipation movement. You’re not changing anyone’s minds that radically this close to an election.

                Believe it or not, I don’t spend most of my day voting or responding to internet comments.

              • Vespair@lemm.ee
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                1 month ago

                And as you smile smugly to yourself about your moral superiority for choosing philosophy over the unfortunate situation that is reality, women die due to lack of reasonable healthcare, minorities and those deemed “deviant” by fundamentalists are oppressed, and the genocide in Palestine is ramped up and overtly supported by American interests because the right doesn’t do this kind of philosophical masturbation and thus handily wins the election.

                Look, I want to see the end of the binary too, but only an ignorant person thinks you can win a race by being dropped off at the finish line and walking 2 steps. The end of the binary will not come from a surprise upset Presidential election out of nowhere. It just won’t. Not today, not ever. If you actually give a shit about making a change and not just feeling above it all personally, you’d be out on the streets in non election years working to legitimize third party candidates in viable lower and local races where they can win and affect change outside the party system. And if you’re somewhere where that has already happened, you’d be working with them to extend their reach, pushing their influence further. Or you’d be running locally as a third-party candidate yourself.

                And if you are already doing that, first off thank you so much, but secondly, then you must understand what a difficult uphill battle the fight is and more importantly you must understand you can’t just skip ahead to the finish line.

                You mention that voting is not the only way to change things for good and you are absolutely right. Hell, I’d say it’s not even one of the primary ways. But what voting is is one of the highest return on investment ways of effecting change; the amount of effect it takes to vote is beyond nominal, practically insignificant, yet the consequences have significant real world impact. Not smartly utilizing your vote is like being hungry in a cabin in the woods and taking a knife out hunt a wild boar for food when there is a literal ham sandwich in a ziploc bag in the fridge waiting for you.

                • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  But what voting is is one of the highest return on investment ways of effecting change

                  I’m constantly working on local stuff, my vote has never made any kind of a difference - I live in an urban area jerrymandered to include as much of the suburbs as possible, they vote in lockstep to keep their taxes low and poors out. They are bipartisan about that. The local democratic committees are all just full of the family of people running for office and nobody with good politics has the time or energy to participate in the democratic party

                  I’m in a blue state, I’ve voted every year for decades, it’s always felt like a waste of time. Any time I ask elected representatives about something they didn’t already want to do they (or their staff) tell me to fuck off.

                  • Vespair@lemm.ee
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                    1 month ago

                    Seems a great time to see the section of my comment about legitimizing or running as a third party in your community to effect change on the local level, then.

                    The point of my comment was not to be satisfied, it is that change doesn’t start at the finish line. If you are fed up and think your vote is worthless, then do something about it rather than impotently protesting which accomplishes nothing but throwing away that tiny bit of power you did wield.

                    Here’s the deal guys: nobody is coming to save you. Not Harris or Trump, but also not Stein, or Bernie, or anyone else. There is never going to be a time when you can just vote and suddenly things are all sunshine and rainbows. Change takes work, and we’re discussing enormous change on a massive scale.

                    Or, let me offer you a counterpoint - maybe the democrats in your area aren’t a lost cause. Maybe they can be better utilized, motivated, incentivized, etc. Going back to the change takes work/nobody is coming to save you bit, what have you personally done to change the situation in area beyond voting or donation?

      • YeetPics@mander.xyz
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        1 month ago

        Some infinities are larger than others.

        Most people prefer less genocide. It’s quite good for it to be scarce.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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            1 month ago

            Oh, you only want no genocide and not no killing? Do you have a soul? You’re such a monster!

            We can go on forever saying some things are worse than others. Eventually you have to accept you don’t have a choice of perfection, and you never will.

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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                1 month ago

                I’m sorry, I don’t have a bomber. That is not a choice I have. I also am not a member of the International Court of Justice nor am I an attorney or a UN representative. I don’t really have any power to enforce the Geneva convention. By the way you’re speaking it appears you do and you should use that power instead of telling others they aren’t doing it.

                What does boycotting the election do that is any different than if I just didn’t exist? If they can just ignore me, then what effect does that have that forces them to change? It would appear effectively being non-existent is the cowardly option.

                You speak a big game, but you don’t actually play it. Its easy to say something isn’t enough, but what actually would be? I can always point to a flaw. A coward would say “I’m just not going to do anything.” Someone who actually cares will accept that they have a moral responsibility to do what they can to achieve the best outcome, even if that outcome isn’t perfect and still has massive moral flaws, because the alternative would only be worse.

                Being cowardly and letting the worst option come to fruition is true moral degeneracy. The Palestinians that die from US support ramping up will be on everyone’s hands, and especially those who chose it or didn’t try to prevent it, including those from outside trying to make other do so.

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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                1 month ago

                There is no way to write that sentence without a double-negative. Quotes could have differentiated it (not “no killing”), but there’s no alternative with the same meaning that isn’t a double-negative (at least that I’m aware of).

    • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      People who say “Kamela Harris supports genocide!” keep forgetting Trump literally put the Israeli Embassy in Jerusalem and wants to nuke everything…

      I randomly remembered that Ben Shapiro claimed multiple times that radiation was a myth liberals made up to get people to not use nukes… These Right Wingers are crazy

    • hark@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      But it could be a slightly less painful genocide if Kamala is in charge.

      Are you joking? The situation is dire when people are patting themselves on the back for a “slightly less painful genocide” whatever the hell that means in practice.

      • Wrench@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        It’s called accepting reality for what it is and doing your best with the plausible options available.

        I.E. being an adult

          • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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            1 month ago

            No, it means recognizing a shitty situation and working to make it less shitty - the “I won’t vote for Harris because genocide” crowd are refusing to make a situation less shitty because they want the situation to not be shitty at all. Big problems don’t have easy solutions - in this case we can all see what a good action would be (stopping any offensive arms sales to Isreal) but the political situation is such that that’s not going to happen - we tried to make that happen and I’m deeply grateful to everyone who protested the DNC.

            But, at the end of the day, Trump will accelerate the genocide. He’s the worst outcome.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          The Adults In The Room are here to make Tough Decisions just like in muh TV slop and wouldn’t you know it, those Tough Decisions involve slaughtering the poor and vulnerable for the benefit of the rich. Anyone who thinks wanton slaughter of the poor is bad, actually, is just a Whiny Child who Doesn’t Understand muh Complexity and Nuance needs to Grow Up and Accept Reality, and anyway that’s why we need to Kill All The Jews Palestinians.

          Grow a fucking spine. Or a conscience. Or both.

      • kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 month ago

        It means genocide but the bombs have pride flags instead of American flags, so completely different and if you disagree you’re a Russian bot :3

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      If you only see the choices where you don’t sacrifice anything (between something prepared and served for you), you don’t have a choice.

      “Slightly less painful genocide” will not even be slightly less painful. But people there sacrifice lives, while you won’t even sacrifice effort (and future efforts in court) to do something of a long list of actions which constitute political terrorism. You are not willing to even break law to defend people who are not being just abused, but murdered en masse in horrible ways.

      Then you pretend with that cowardly logic that these are all choices you have, so you don’t even want to take responsibility for choosing the easy and safe path of doing nothing.

      • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        People on the internet will really be like ‘you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart’ and then not firebomb a Walmart.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          When people are getting firebombed by thousands in your name, you’d do well to at least dream day and night of firebombing anything near you.

        • xmunk@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          Hey, I regularly do that… it usually happens after I’ve had too much taco bell but I leave those bathrooms looking like a war zone.

      • Guy Dudeman@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        you won’t even sacrifice effort (and future efforts in court) to do something of a long list of actions which constitute political terrorism. You are not willing to even break law to defend people who are not being just abused, but murdered en masse in horrible ways.

        Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.

        You don’t know me. You don’t know what I have or have not done. Voting and direct action are not mutually exclusive.

        • SquirtleHermit@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.

          Pot calling the kettle black a bit ain’t ya.

          I hope you do walk the walk to go along with your big talk, but take responsibility for your words too. Statements like yours gives people a reason to feel “good enough” about “slightly less genocide”. And if we all keep repeating the mantra “slightly less genocide”, we can feel “good enough” all the way to complete genocide.

          Then we can all wear a big frown so everyone knows how upset we are about it.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.

          Not your business.

          You don’t know me. You don’t know what I have or have not done. Voting and direct action are not mutually exclusive.

          All I’ve said follows from your own comment.

    • index@sh.itjust.works
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      1 month ago

      Shame on you, you are complicit. You will go down in history as one of the person that supported this genocide.

      Dude, it’s gonna be genocide either way

      Help make things better and stop supporting the government and parties who are fueling the genocide

      • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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        1 month ago

        Good news! You will too! You are a member of a society that is all participating. Just because you pretend like you have better morals by not actually participating in a meaningful way doesn’t mean you aren’t complicit. If someone is about to be murdered and you don’t stop them because “you don’t want to get your hand dirty” then you made a choice to do nothing. Doing nothing (or meaningfully nothing) doesn’t keep you clean, it makes you complicit with anything that happens, not fighting against the worst possible outcome.

        • index@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          Good news! You will too! You are a member of a society that is all participating.

          Don’t confuse being a victim yourself of your authoritarian state wrongdoings with actively endorsing and supporting your government.

          not actually participating in a meaningful way

          Not supporting fascists (israel government) or these behind them is a much more meaningful way to help things for good than directly endorsing and supporting them.

          If someone is about to be murdered and you don’t stop them because “you don’t want to get your hand dirty” then you made a choice to do nothing.

          Kids are being murdered in gaza right now as we talk and what you are doing is advocating for the perpetrators, again shame on you.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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            1 month ago

            Not supporting fascists (israel government) or these behind them is a much more meaningful way to help things for good than directly endorsing and supporting them.

            What does not supporting them do? Give me an actual answer of how it effects them in a way that’s different from you not existing at all.

            Kids are being murdered in gaza right now as we talk and what you are doing is advocating for the perpetrators, again shame on you.

            Women are dying in the US because they can’t get treatment for pregnancy related complications. Trans people are being denied Healthcare. People are starving and unhoused.

            No matter what, everything won’t be fixed. Even if you got to hand pick a perfect candidate, they wouldn’t or couldn’t fix everything. You always only have the choice between what the best outcome will be, not the perfect outcome. Not making a choice makes you a participant in whatever outcome others pick for you.

            Shame on you if things get worse because you wanted to pretend moral superiority. Everyone who gets hurt or dies after this is on you (too). Actual morality is a little more complicated than what you’re pretending. It’s a very complex and diverse subject, and there really isn’t black and white.

            • index@sh.itjust.works
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              1 month ago

              Women are dying in the US because they can’t get treatment for pregnancy related complications. Trans people are being denied Healthcare. People are starving and unhoused.

              And you are advocating for the government in charge! Shame on you! If someone gets hurt you voted for it, don’t you try to put the blame on others, you are supporting this shit more than everyone else

              • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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                1 month ago

                And if someone gets hurt, you didn’t vote to prevent it. Which one is worse? I’d rather try to do good than not participate and allow bad to happen.

                … don’t you try to put the blame on others…

                Oh, only you’re allowed to do that. My bad. I forgot that only people doing nothing get to blame other people! Sorry! People who actually do want to participate in making the best choice for the most people just have to accept that we did what’s best and can’t point out the failing of people advocating for not doing what’s best.