Does invading your neighbor count as international collaboration? Not that all Russian people can be held directly responsible for the actions of their government.
Ehh they keep saying we are not involved we are not whatever. You can only say that so long. I mean the soldiers are coming from somewhere these are not people grown in vats.
It’s a little unclear what you mean, like because more than half a million Russian soldiers have already been killed so far and yet the war keeps going, that the people must be responsible for supporting?
Russia is conscripting, so most are not there by choice but required by law. If you draft dodge and get caught, you go to prison, and still just end up on the frontline anyway, since they are emptying their prisons to use as soldiers, too. And these people will be shot and killed by their own side if they attempt a retreat, while fed propaganda and misinformation about their treatment if they surrender. There has been significant human trafficking to support their war effort. They’ve also depended heavily on mercenary forces outside of their military in order to have skilled soldiers, and are now even receiving soldiers from North Korea in order to continue fighting.
Besides that, there are so many factors that go into why a person would decide to join the military and in reality, they are usually economic ones or from extensive propaganda.
@yogthos@theunknownmuncher I am in the US and I realize this. There was a funny meme a while back about look how aggressive Russia is, they put their country all around our military bases. Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in that. What other country has military bases throughout the world?
Aside from the fact that it’s pretty insane to suggest to kick someone off a project for no reason other than their nationality (the article doesn’t say any of these maintainers supported the invasion or had any ties with the government), even if these people actively supported the government, as far as kernel development is concerned… I don’t really care? If their contributions are good then I want their patches to be merged. Tor was made by the US government, which I in no way condone, but I still use Tor.
@theunknownmuncher The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with. Russia invades a neighboring country when we install a leader that is going to allow us to put missiles on their border. I really hate to see political hegemony get in the way of a good collaborative effort, we all suffer for it if we allow this.
The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with.
Absolutely fair point. I agree with you on this portion of your comment.
@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Zelensky took office on the promise of normalizing relations with Donbas and Russia, and then proceeded to do the opposite. Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Ukraine using its right to free association, to sign an agreement with the EU strengthening relations? Specifically including a further formalising of cooperation around Chernobyl (Euratom is independently a signatory), an issue entirely caused by Russia in the first place, who didn’t ever offer a similar level of cooperation? Is that what you’re referring too?
Nah, what I’m referring to is the violent coup by the far right that was openly supported by the west. Also, Russia never asked Ukraine to choose between economic association with Russia and Europe. It was western demand that Ukraine had to break economic ties with Russia. Maybe should get your facts straight so you can do more quality trolling.
@possiblylinux127@theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
Your perfective only make sense if we assume that Putin is retarded(what he propably is) because Ukraine couldn’t join NATO(Crimea) and now Finland is at NATO because that war, and Putin said that he don’t care that Finland is in NATO, I can only came to the conclusion that he didn’t care about NATO in Russia border, he just wanted to genocide ukranians, or die as the one who brought back Russia empire
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Seems to me that you’re the one justifying genocide of people of Donbas by the fascists that took power in a violent coup backed by the west. Even western media reported on the far right problem in Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing in Donbas before the war started.
@yogthos@theunknownmuncher Well we are two weeks away from an Presidential election here in the US, going to be interesting to see where that goes. If Kamaltoe, er, Kamala gets it then probably we won’t even be able to discuss it anymore.
@theunknownmuncher I don’t justify genocide, I acknowledge ALL conflicts involve at least two sides, and to punish only one of those sides is to take part in said genocide rather than oppose it.
Okay then, so describe the 2 sides and the punishments they deserved during the Nazi Germany invasion of Poland/Europe and the holocaust. I hate to bring Nazis into it as an argument, but you did say “ALL” and it easily shows how ridiculous that take is.
no matter whether you think russia is justified in invading ukraine or not, if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine, yankees have to get the boot as well
@bunitor That would be my take. My take is that as individuals we are were international cooperation needs to begin, it isn’t going to happen with our governments, at least it never has historically.
We had international cooperation but the world is splintering now. Might be some security concerns but also think some of it is America protecting its companies from China companies.
I’m sure removing these maintainers would be of great help to the Ukrainian war effort…
More seriously: We need to help Ukraine more. But this doesn’t do that. It just hurts a bunch of people (both the maintainers, and the people using their code) for no benefit whatsoever.
100% agree with you! Like I said, I don’t think we can hold all Russian people directly responsible for the actions of their government.
I wish for an ideal world where politics could stay out of Linux, but this is extremely tricky and cannot be treated black and white. Labeling things as “political” and then crying to keep “politics” out of things is often used as a weapon for exclusion, for example by sexuality or race, and I think exclusion should be anathema for Linux and open source projects.
I think the general idea is to create as much drain on Russia as possible. Limit there ability to import and export good while creating brain drain and terrible moral.
How many Russians have defected at this point? Spoiler is a decent amount.
@lily33@theunknownmuncher The best way we can help Ukraine is by removing outside influences from both sides. What is being portrayed as a war in Ukraine is really a proxy war between Russia and the US that was egged on by the US. This is most unwise given that both nations are armed to the teeth with nukes. We really should be looking at ways to de-escalate not escalate this war.
Only problem being that Ukraine never had nukes. USSR had nukes that were stationed on the territory of Ukraine. When USSR dissolved, Russia became the successor state and inherited the nukes. This has never been in dispute.
Does invading your neighbor count as international collaboration? Not that all Russian people can be held directly responsible for the actions of their government.
Ehh they keep saying we are not involved we are not whatever. You can only say that so long. I mean the soldiers are coming from somewhere these are not people grown in vats.
It’s a little unclear what you mean, like because more than half a million Russian soldiers have already been killed so far and yet the war keeps going, that the people must be responsible for supporting?
Russia is conscripting, so most are not there by choice but required by law. If you draft dodge and get caught, you go to prison, and still just end up on the frontline anyway, since they are emptying their prisons to use as soldiers, too. And these people will be shot and killed by their own side if they attempt a retreat, while fed propaganda and misinformation about their treatment if they surrender. There has been significant human trafficking to support their war effort. They’ve also depended heavily on mercenary forces outside of their military in order to have skilled soldiers, and are now even receiving soldiers from North Korea in order to continue fighting.
Besides that, there are so many factors that go into why a person would decide to join the military and in reality, they are usually economic ones or from extensive propaganda.
You do realize that the US has invaded far more countries than Russia has, do burgerlanders have no self awareness at all?
@yogthos @theunknownmuncher I am in the US and I realize this. There was a funny meme a while back about look how aggressive Russia is, they put their country all around our military bases. Unfortunately there is a lot of truth in that. What other country has military bases throughout the world?
Russia literally invaded everyone around them. Look at all the former USSR counties.
The US has been involved in a lot of places but that’s not a justification for Russia attacking its neighborhood.
So it’s ok if you’re invading non-neighbors… got it,
Does Russia invading Ukraine justify the US invading Iraq?
Though we are discussing individuals here, should we ban Americans in projects to maintain moral integrity?
BTW are you referring to historical (pre 1990) expansion as well? Because an American really shouldn’t want to go there.
27 million Soviets died liberating these people from the Nazis, and this is the thanks they get.
I hope this is sarcasm but the way this post is going I don’t know.
I assure you it is not sarcasm.
found the nazi
How to say you’re historically illiterate without saying so. Go read up on how USSR was formed clown.
Aside from the fact that it’s pretty insane to suggest to kick someone off a project for no reason other than their nationality (the article doesn’t say any of these maintainers supported the invasion or had any ties with the government), even if these people actively supported the government, as far as kernel development is concerned… I don’t really care? If their contributions are good then I want their patches to be merged. Tor was made by the US government, which I in no way condone, but I still use Tor.
@theunknownmuncher The US has been involved in probably 300 regime changes throughout the world, has invaded many countries, including those that we were not affiliated with. Russia invades a neighboring country when we install a leader that is going to allow us to put missiles on their border. I really hate to see political hegemony get in the way of a good collaborative effort, we all suffer for it if we allow this.
Absolutely fair point. I agree with you on this portion of your comment.
@theunknownmuncher And I could give countless other examples of other countries. I don’t agree with the war, but I also know if we hadn’t installed Zelenskyy and if the United States had honored our promise to Russia not to extend NATO past East Germany, then it would not have happened. So I understand that it is hardly one sided on Russias part. If we didn’t fund Ukraine, if we didn’t offer them membership in NATO, none of this would have happened. And I’ll add if the Ukraine and Russia did not have large oil reserves and some other precious minerals, the United States would be a lot less interested in them. But that’s all in the past. Now, you and I can disagree with each other and we can disagree with what our governments do, but if we want to build a better world it has to happen through the cooperative efforts of citizens NOT governments because the latter just historically a lot less likely to happen. So I can’t see this move as at all productive towards ending this particular war or world peace in general, I see it as quite the opposite.
So why did Russiactaje Crimera? Saying this wouldn’t have happened is BS. Russia I expected a quick and decisive victory.
Wait, what?? Zelenskyy took office after being democratically elected in 2019. Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014. Your timeline does not check out there.
Zelensky took office on the promise of normalizing relations with Donbas and Russia, and then proceeded to do the opposite. Also, wonder what happened in 2014 that might’ve provoked a response from Russia there.
Ukraine using its right to free association, to sign an agreement with the EU strengthening relations? Specifically including a further formalising of cooperation around Chernobyl (Euratom is independently a signatory), an issue entirely caused by Russia in the first place, who didn’t ever offer a similar level of cooperation? Is that what you’re referring too?
Nah, what I’m referring to is the violent coup by the far right that was openly supported by the west. Also, Russia never asked Ukraine to choose between economic association with Russia and Europe. It was western demand that Ukraine had to break economic ties with Russia. Maybe should get your facts straight so you can do more quality trolling.
Its almost as if it is coming right out of the Russian media
@possiblylinux127 @theunknownmuncher I know it might hurt your brain but it is helpful to fully understand an issue to understand the other sides perspectives.
Your perfective only make sense if we assume that Putin is retarded(what he propably is) because Ukraine couldn’t join NATO(Crimea) and now Finland is at NATO because that war, and Putin said that he don’t care that Finland is in NATO, I can only came to the conclusion that he didn’t care about NATO in Russia border, he just wanted to genocide ukranians, or die as the one who brought back Russia empire
How dare you suggest critical thinking?!
@theunknownmuncher Your timeline doesn’t go back far enough and I notice you completely ignored the bit about Eastern expansion of NATO and what the United States promised Russia.
Your justification of genocide is both ludicrous and gross.
Seems to me that you’re the one justifying genocide of people of Donbas by the fascists that took power in a violent coup backed by the west. Even western media reported on the far right problem in Ukraine and the ethnic cleansing in Donbas before the war started.
@yogthos @theunknownmuncher Well we are two weeks away from an Presidential election here in the US, going to be interesting to see where that goes. If Kamaltoe, er, Kamala gets it then probably we won’t even be able to discuss it anymore.
@theunknownmuncher I don’t justify genocide, I acknowledge ALL conflicts involve at least two sides, and to punish only one of those sides is to take part in said genocide rather than oppose it.
Okay then, so describe the 2 sides and the punishments they deserved during the Nazi Germany invasion of Poland/Europe and the holocaust. I hate to bring Nazis into it as an argument, but you did say “ALL” and it easily shows how ridiculous that take is.
there is simply no meaningful response to this
no matter whether you think russia is justified in invading ukraine or not, if russians get banned from the kernel bc russia invaded ukraine, yankees have to get the boot as well
@bunitor I’d agree, but on this same basis with all the conflicts in the world you’d have to expand this to about 99% of the globe.
YUP
so… maybe nobody should be banned and it sucks that this happened?
@bunitor That would be my take. My take is that as individuals we are were international cooperation needs to begin, it isn’t going to happen with our governments, at least it never has historically.
We had international cooperation but the world is splintering now. Might be some security concerns but also think some of it is America protecting its companies from China companies.
You should read the article because this is not a thing that has occurred, at least not yet.
my understanding was that the kernel didn’t publicly state any specific reason, but “complying to sanctions” semms like a safe bet to me
in any case, whatever the reason, this removal is unfortunate and uncalled for
I’m sure removing these maintainers would be of great help to the Ukrainian war effort…
More seriously: We need to help Ukraine more. But this doesn’t do that. It just hurts a bunch of people (both the maintainers, and the people using their code) for no benefit whatsoever.
The biggest help the west could’ve done for Ukraine was to fuck off when the Istanbul negotiations were happening two months into the war.
100% agree with you! Like I said, I don’t think we can hold all Russian people directly responsible for the actions of their government.
I wish for an ideal world where politics could stay out of Linux, but this is extremely tricky and cannot be treated black and white. Labeling things as “political” and then crying to keep “politics” out of things is often used as a weapon for exclusion, for example by sexuality or race, and I think exclusion should be anathema for Linux and open source projects.
I think the general idea is to create as much drain on Russia as possible. Limit there ability to import and export good while creating brain drain and terrible moral.
How many Russians have defected at this point? Spoiler is a decent amount.
How’s that working you for y’all there?
oh and spoiler, welcome to the real world https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/russia-relocation-emigration-return-reasons/
@lily33 @theunknownmuncher The best way we can help Ukraine is by removing outside influences from both sides. What is being portrayed as a war in Ukraine is really a proxy war between Russia and the US that was egged on by the US. This is most unwise given that both nations are armed to the teeth with nukes. We really should be looking at ways to de-escalate not escalate this war.
De-escalation is easy: Russia can get the fuck out of Ukraine. All of it.
I love how libs are utterly incapable of engaging with reality thinking that if they just repeat this mantra enough times it’ll happen.
@remotelove Yea sure, let the US place missiles on their border. Not a rational option.
Well considering the US said they would defend Ukraine from Russia when Ukraine got rid of there nukes. Yah kind of hand tied with Russia invading.
Only problem being that Ukraine never had nukes. USSR had nukes that were stationed on the territory of Ukraine. When USSR dissolved, Russia became the successor state and inherited the nukes. This has never been in dispute.