• 4am@lemm.ee
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    4 hours ago

    Imagine how much power is wasted on this unfortunate necessity.

    Now imagine how much power will be wasted circumventing it.

    Fucking clown world we live in

    • Demdaru@lemmy.world
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      4 hours ago

      On on hand, yes. On the other…imagine frustration of management of companies making and selling AI services. This is such a sweet thing to imagine.

  • quack@lemmy.zip
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    4 hours ago

    Generating content with AI to throw off crawlers. I dread to think of the resources we’re wasting on this utter insanity now, but hey who the fuck cares as long as the line keeps going up for these leeches.

  • oldfart@lemm.ee
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    5 hours ago

    So the web is a corporate war zone now and you can choose feudal protection or being attacked from all sides. What a time to be alive.

    • theparadox@lemmy.world
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      3 hours ago

      There is also the corpo verified id route. In order to avoid the onslaught of AI bots and all that comes with them you’ll need to sacrifice freedom, anonymity, and privacy like a good little peasant to prove you aren’t a bot… and so will everyone else. You’ll likely be forced to deal with whatever AI bots are forced upon you while within the walls but better an enemy you know I guess?

  • Onsotumenh@discuss.tchncs.de
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    3 hours ago

    Why do I have the feeling that I will end up in that nightmare with my privacy focused and ad-free Browser setup. I already end up in captcha hell too often because of it.

    • rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      6 hours ago

      Next step is an AI that detects AI labyrinth.

      It gets trained on labyrinths generated by another AI.

      So you have an AI generating labyrinths to train an AI to detect labyrinths which are generated by another AI so that your original AI crawler doesn’t get lost.

      It’s gonna be AI all the way down.

      • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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        5 hours ago

        All the while each AI costs more power than a million human beings to run, and the world burns down around us.

        • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          4 hours ago

          The same way they justify cutting benefits for the disabled to balance budgets instead of putting taxes on the rich or just not giving them bailouts, they will justify cutting power to you before a data centre that’s 10 corporate AIs all fighting each other, unless we as a people stand up and actually demand change.

            • LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              47 minutes ago

              In my country blue is conservatives… But I agree with the sentiment! It worked for California, it can work for your country, let the Dems stop fearing they lose elections, give them comfortable margins and then massively support progressives who can bring in the good stuff, they won’t have a chance if the party core thinks the very future of elections is on the line, but if they think they’ll likely win anyway, you might just be able to push through a progressive candidate and end the Neoliberal decay.

      • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
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        5 hours ago

        LLMs tend to be really bad at detecting AI generated content. I can’t imagine specialized models are much better. For the crawler, it’s also exponentially more expensive and more human work, and must be replicated for every crawler since they’re so freaking secretive.

        I think the hosts win here.

  • baltakatei@sopuli.xyz
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    4 hours ago

    Relevant excerpt from part 11 of Anathem (2008) by Neal Stephenson:

    Artificial Inanity

    Note: Reticulum=Internet, syndev=computer, crap~=spam

    “Early in the Reticulum—thousands of years ago—it became almost useless because it was cluttered with faulty, obsolete, or downright misleading information,” Sammann said.

    “Crap, you once called it,” I reminded him.

    “Yes—a technical term. So crap filtering became important. Businesses were built around it. Some of those businesses came up with a clever plan to make more money: they poisoned the well. They began to put crap on the Reticulum deliberately, forcing people to use their products to filter that crap back out. They created syndevs whose sole purpose was to spew crap into the Reticulum. But it had to be good crap.”

    “What is good crap?” Arsibalt asked in a politely incredulous tone.

    “Well, bad crap would be an unformatted document consisting of random letters. Good crap would be a beautifully typeset, well-written document that contained a hundred correct, verifiable sentences and one that was subtly false. It’s a lot harder to generate good crap. At first they had to hire humans to churn it out. They mostly did it by taking legitimate documents and inserting errors—swapping one name for another, say. But it didn’t really take off until the military got interested.”

    “As a tactic for planting misinformation in the enemy’s reticules, you mean,” Osa said. “This I know about. You are referring to the Artificial Inanity programs of the mid–First Millennium A.R.”

    “Exactly!” Sammann said. “Artificial Inanity systems of enormous sophistication and power were built for exactly the purpose Fraa Osa has mentioned. In no time at all, the praxis leaked to the commercial sector and spread to the Rampant Orphan Botnet Ecologies. Never mind. The point is that there was a sort of Dark Age on the Reticulum that lasted until my Ita forerunners were able to bring matters in hand.”

    “So, are Artificial Inanity systems still active in the Rampant Orphan Botnet Ecologies?” asked Arsibalt, utterly fascinated.

    “The ROBE evolved into something totally different early in the Second Millennium,” Sammann said dismissively.

    “What did it evolve into?” Jesry asked.

    “No one is sure,” Sammann said. “We only get hints when it finds ways to physically instantiate itself, which, fortunately, does not happen that often. But we digress. The functionality of Artificial Inanity still exists. You might say that those Ita who brought the Ret out of the Dark Age could only defeat it by co-opting it. So, to make a long story short, for every legitimate document floating around on the Reticulum, there are hundreds or thousands of bogus versions—bogons, as we call them.”

    “The only way to preserve the integrity of the defenses is to subject them to unceasing assault,” Osa said, and any idiot could guess he was quoting some old Vale aphorism.

    “Yes,” Sammann said, “and it works so well that, most of the time, the users of the Reticulum don’t know it’s there. Just as you are not aware of the millions of germs trying and failing to attack your body every moment of every day. However, the recent events, and the stresses posed by the Antiswarm, appear to have introduced the low-level bug that I spoke of.”

    “So the practical consequence for us,” Lio said, “is that—?”

    “Our cells on the ground may be having difficulty distinguishing between legitimate messages and bogons. And some of the messages that flash up on our screens may be bogons as well.”

  • AnthropomorphicCat@lemmy.world
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    7 hours ago

    So the world is now wasting energy and resources to generate AI content in order to combat AI crawlers, by making them waste more energy and resources. Great! 👍

    • brucethemoose@lemmy.world
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      5 hours ago

      The energy cost of inference is overstated. Small models, or “sparse” models like Deepseek are not expensive to run. Training is a one-time cost that still pales in comparison to, like, making aluminum.

      Doubly so once inference goes more on-device.

      Basically, only Altman and his tech bro acolytes want AI to be cost prohibitive so he can have a monopoly. Also, he’s full of shit, and everyone in the industry knows it.

      AI as it’s implemented has plenty of enshittification, but the energy cost is kinda a red herring.

  • RelativeArea1@sh.itjust.works
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    8 hours ago

    this is some fucking stupid situation, we somewhat got a faster internet and these bots messing each other are hugging the bandwidth.

        • melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          6 hours ago

          given what domains we’re hosted on; i think we’ve both had a version of this conversation about a thousand times, and both ended up where we ended up. do you want us to explain hypothetically-at-but-mostly-past each other again? I can do it while un-sober, if you like.

            • Val@lemm.ee
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              3 hours ago

              Not the one you responded to but how about the tiredness-fuelled rant that I replied to the other person with.

            • Val@lemm.ee
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              3 hours ago

              So here’s a little bit of lemmy lore for you. You’re instance lemmy.ml is considered to be a tankie instance by some users. lemmy.dbzer0.com is an anarchist instance. The user you responded to probably made a generalisation based on this and assumed you were familiar with anarchist/communist/socialist/leftist discourse. From this comment I assume they were wrong.

              So on behalf of no-one but myself: Hello! Welcome to Anarchism! The belief that authority should not exist. This belief comes from a lot of different places and wears a lot of different faces. Most short explanations aren’t sufficient and long explanation bore most. If you don’t mind a little learning here is a link: https://anarchistfaq.org/afaq/sectionA.html#seca1 and another one https://crimethinc.com/2016/09/28/feature-the-secret-is-to-begin-getting-started-further-resources-frequently-asked-questions#faq or if you like videos: https://youtu.be/lrTzjaXskUU.

              Also a little bit about authority: people use authority to mean many things (this is even bought up in the video I linked above). But as far as anarchists are concerned (in general (no specific statement can be made about a group so vast)) authority is the act of coercing people to follow orders or commit involuntary acts. You’re boss can coerce you to neglect your health by threatening to fire you. Your government can force you to obey gender roles by threatening to jail you. A rich person can make you do whatever demeaning thing they want by dangling money in front of you (for reference see mrbeast) because otherwise your landlord will kick you out. This is authority and it is wrong. Those in authority can make mistakes, become greedy and start to think they have the power to do whatever they want (mostly because they can). This leads to suffering. My meaning of life is to minimise suffering. Anarchy is the belief that no-one should hold power over others. That all leadership should be scrutinised. It rejects blind faith in single people and encourages to think for yourself so no-one can do you wrong. And if you can’t be bothered, it encourages you to find people who genuinely care about you and let them stand up for you.

              • morrowind@lemmy.ml
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                2 hours ago

                Thanks, I don’t really care for generalizing instances and didn’t really have a choice when I made my account.

                But also your definition is impossibly broad as you well and I’m pretty sure not the general consensus. The video doesn’t define it as such either.

                For one thing, by your definition we can have absolutely no meaningful human relationships. I can explain this more later when I have time if you don’t see what I mean

      • IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works
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        8 hours ago

        That’s not really relevant here. This is more of a “genie is out of the bottle and now we have to learn how to deal with it situation”. The idea and technology of bots and AI training already exists. There’s no socioeconomic system that is going to magically make that go away.

        • Revv@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          7 hours ago

          I think the point you’re missing is that without the monetary incentive that arises under capitalism, there would be very little drive for anyone to build these wasteful AI systems. It’s difficult to imagine a group of people voluntarily amassing and then using the resources necessary for “AI” absent the desire to cash in on their investment. So you’re correct that an alternative economic system won’t “magically” make LLMs go away. I think it unlikely, however, that such wasteful nonsense would be used on any meaningful scale absent the perverse incentives of capitalism.

          • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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            6 hours ago

            It’s difficult to imagine a group of people voluntarily amassing and then using the resources necessary for “AI” absent the desire to cash in on their investment.

            No imagination necessary.

            I mean Dmitry Pospelov was arguing for AI control in the Soviet Union clear back in the 70s.

            • Val@lemm.ee
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              3 hours ago

              Just another way the state capitalist soviet union was closer to capitalism than socialism.

        • andyburke@fedia.io
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          7 hours ago

          It is called regulation in sane parts of the world.

          Sadly, those areas seem to be diminishing rapidly until more people enter the Find Out phase.

        • melpomenesclevage@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 hours ago

          I don’t need it to not exist. I need it to stay the fuck out of everyone’s lives unless they work in a lab of some kind.

          see, it’s not actually useful. it’s a tomogatchi. do you remember those? no, you fucking don’t.

        • limer@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          8 hours ago

          He is not wrong. Unless people start to take steps , the dependency of tech will be used to chain most of us. Granted, these chains will be the kindest and gentlest chains seen in a long time.

          Social revolution lives on in decentralized services, like this; the true battles will be later though. This year is a mild warm up. I can’t imagine the challenges that await many

    • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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      7 hours ago

      Especially since the solution I cooked up for my site works just fine and took a lot less work. This is simply to identify the incoming requests from these damn bots – which is not difficult, since they ignore all directives and sanity and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second, that makes 'em easy to spot – and simply IP ban them. This is considerably simpler, and doesn’t require an entire nuclear plant powered AI to combat the opposition’s nuclear plant powered AI.

      In fact, anybody who doesn’t exhibit a sane crawl rate gets blocked from my site automatically. For a while, most of them were coming from Russian IP address zones for some reason. These days Amazon is the worst offender, I guess their Rufus AI or whatever the fuck it is tries to pester other retail sites to “learn” about products rather than sticking to its own domain.

      Fuck 'em. Route those motherfuckers right to /dev/null.

      • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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        6 hours ago

        and try to slam your site with like 200+ requests per second

        Your solution would do nothing to stop the crawlers that are operating 10ish rps. There’s ones out there operating at a mere 2rps but when multiple companies are doing it at the same time 24x7x365 it adds up.

        Some incredibly talented people have been battling this since last year and your solution has been tried multiple times. It’s not effective in all instances and can require a LOT of manual intervention and SysAdmin time.

        https://thelibre.news/foss-infrastructure-is-under-attack-by-ai-companies/

        • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️@lemmy.world
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          6 hours ago

          It’s worked alright for me. Your mileage may vary.

          If someone is scraping my site at a low crawl rate I honestly don’t care so long as it doesn’t impact my performance for everyone else. If I hosted anything that was not just public knowledge or copy regurgitated verbatim from the bumf provided by the vendors of the brands I sell, I might oppose to it ideologically. But I don’t. So I don’t.

          If parallel crawling from multiple organizations legitimately becomes a concern for us I will have to get more creative. But thus far it hasn’t, and honestly just wholesale blocking Amazon from our shit instantly solved 90% of the problem.

      • desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        6 hours ago

        the only problem with that solution being applied to generic websites is schools and institutions can have many legitimate users from one IP address and many sites don’t want a chance to accidentally block one.

    • IninewCrow@lemmy.ca
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      8 hours ago

      It’s what I’ve been saying about technology for the past decade or two … we’ve hit an upper limit to our technological development … that limit is on individual human greed where small groups of people or massively wealthy people hinder or delay any further development because they’re always trying to find ways to make money off it, prevent others from making money off it, monopolize an area or section of society … capitalism is literally our world’s bottleneck and it’s being choked off by an oddly shaped gold bar at this point.

  • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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    5 hours ago

    Cloudflare kind of real for this. I love it.

    It makes perfect sense for them as a business, infinite automated traffic equals infinite costs and lower server stability, but at the same time how often do giant tech companies do things that make sense these days?

  • Empricorn@feddit.nl
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    8 hours ago

    So we’re burning fossil fuels and destroying the planet so bots can try to deceive one another on the Internet in pursuit of our personal data. I feel like dystopian cyberpunk predictions didn’t fully understand how fucking stupid we are…

    • Flagstaff
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      4 hours ago

      They probably knew, but the truth is just boring and it’s funner to dramatize things, haha.