I just go without.
the overwhelming majority of apps are nothing but websites wrapped in apps that strip away all the privacy and protections anyway, and demand far to many permissions for shit that are completely irrelevant to their purpose (because they want to siphon literally everything out of your phone and monetize the information).
I’d rather miss a deal, a sale, or whatever, than to deal with that shit.
When the app is prompting you to accept cookies
TBH I dont use an app for anything that can be done in the browser, especially when mobile websites ask me tl get their app.
I’m the same way. The less apps there are on my phone, the better. Also, using the web app is the only way to block ads on certain sites such as Instagram or Twitter.
then there are companies like yelp who disable their mobile site and make their desktop site as shitty as possible on mobile to force you to the app.
Doesn’t really sound like a company that I would want to do any business with then.
What’s that other shitty company that constantly pesters you to download the app every time you average the site? Teddit?
For reddit, just type in
old.reddit.comand those nags disappear.true but also old reddit is awful to navigate on mobile.
Huh, is that why I haven’t used yelp in years?
My favorite part of the 30 day dumb phone challenge I did recently: I couldn’t install your crappy app even if I wanted to.
A little over halfway through the challenge, was paying for my order at a local eatery, and the cashier started plugging their new app and rewards points and digital coupons and shit. I was like “I’m gonna stop you right there: flip phone.” and pulled it out of my pocket and brandished it like I was the sheriff of Luddite-ville.
Kinda like this, but “Flip phone!”
I just tell them ‘no’.
That’s what I used to do, but a good portion of the time they’d continue their spiel to try to change my mind. Have only had to brandish the dumb phone once, but so far it’s got a 100% shut down success rate.
I just tell them I don’t have a phone. Even if I’m still holding it in my hand. Most don’t want to engage. They likely figure they’re not payed enough for that.
Same.
Cashier: “What’s your phone number?” (For the store tracking/rewards/whatever)
Me : “Don’t have one!” (As I remove the credit card from the case on the back of myphone)
Nobody has questioned it once. They don’t want to ask in the first place but are forced to.
Huh. Doesn’t happen often I guess but typically when I’m asked for a phone number or email I refuse or say I don’t have one and it really throws people off and they usually refuse to complete the form or do whatever the hell it was they were doing.
You can do almost anything with a website that you could do with an app. The only reason they are pushing the apps so hard is because they can collect a lot more data than a website can.
As Cory Doctorow put it, “An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it.”
The cloud is many things, but most of all, it’s a trap. When software is delivered as a service, when your data and the programs you use to read and write it live on computers that you don’t control, your switching costs skyrocket. Think of Adobe, which no longer lets you buy programs at all, but instead insists that you run its software via the cloud. Adobe used the fact that you no longer own the tools you rely upon to cancel its Pantone color-matching license. One day, every Adobe customer in the world woke up to discover that the colors in their career-spanning file collections had all turned black, and would remain black until they paid an upcharge:
The cloud allows the companies whose products you rely on to alter the functioning and cost of those products unilaterally. Like mobile apps – which can’t be reverse-engineered and modified without risking legal liability – cloud apps are built for enshittification. They are designed to shift power away from users to software companies. An app is just a web-page wrapped in enough IP to make it a felony to add an ad-blocker to it. A cloud app is some Javascript wrapped in enough terms of service clickthroughs to make it a felony to restore old features that the company now wants to upcharge you for.
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software, and it depresses me to no end how few businesses or users see it for what it is.
And it’s exactly this: a trap. A trap users people are racing into, and they have no idea, at all, how bad it’s going to get when the doors close behind them.
The rest of us are left with little recourse. Looking at the difference between Outlook and New Outlook is genuinely depressing because that’s the future we’re all being shepherded into against our will. I swear, in like 10 years, Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
Windows will mostly just be a kiosk for Edge.
I think for the vast majority of average users this has been true for a long time.
I’m with you 100% up to the “little recourse,” I think there’s more options now than there have ever been. Open source (including linux and self hosting) are about the only tech-future things I’m genuinely excited about.
There’s still a learning curve and progress to be made, for sure. However, anecdotally, I’ve seen programming and hosting become vastly more accessible in the last 15 years. Also, not everyone needs to self host, people just need to know someone who is willing and able to set them up.
Not saying it’s a guarantee, but it’s a possible way out, at least. And being here on lemmy, reading and writing about these issues is a good sign there’s movement in the right direction.
I agree with you on everything, other than
I legitimately want to scream sometimes as I feel the continual death of local computing and actual software
…it seems to me that it’s never been better, there’s free software for everything, osm data for mapping, it’s just that our expectations have shifted.
This is the main reason why I seldom install anyone’s “app”.
Most of these apps aren’t true apps anyway, they’re just customized browsers that lead you to a website and are free to collect as much data from you and your phone as they want.
I’ll go on your website first if I have to and 9 / 10 I get what I want. Besides, I’ll only ever visit the service once or twice so I don’t need to install a permanent app on my phone for that.
Also desktop mode to circumvent those phone detection systems and trying to force an app.
Desktop mode plus zoom out on iOS, sometimes… then over to a desktop browser app when that falls. Sigh
I wish. Every fucking bank has their own shitty app for 2FA instead of just using standardized and proven TOTP, no way around that.
Same about school apps the article mentioned since it’s connecting to their (one of many) proprietary system, no website for that.
And recently got into the home automation rabbit hole. Lots of devices that require their fucking app, sometimes with mandatory cloud account, just to connect! And people in reviews even praise how easy it is, it’s infuriating! I don’t need light bulbs connecting to the internet, thank you very much.
I get emails from school, with a link that opens a 3rd party app, which only displays a link that opens in the default browser. I’ve asked the school to just send me direct links to the announcements, but they say they can’t. The site doesn’t require authentication, but the URLs have UUIDs so I can’t just guess what the link would be. The app is quite literally just a data exfiltration layer that does everything it can to make sure you can’t bypass it. Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
Good luck getting any other parents to give a shit though.
That’s the big one, sadly.
Ha, sucker, you think your non-Internet-connected lightbulbs make you safe? My Internet-connected lightbulbs have sent my online-car to wardrive your neighbourhood and sniff your Zigbee network!
…if you see my car please tell it to come back to me, I need to go to the shops…
All of the banks I’ve used in the past utilize email or SMS for 2FA, which isn’t the must secure, but doesn’t require an app.
They need to switch to Webauthn. SMS-based 2FA should’ve been big 10+ years ago, not today. I don’t really understand why this old style 2FA has been just now becoming popular lately.
Around here, Target (department store chain) will let you order stuff through their app and pick it up in the store parking lot. If you order through the web you have to wait around inside the store to get it. I still won’t install the app but this issue annoys me.
And then there’s guys like me. I don’t announce when I’m coming. I grab the items myself, and then I pay in cash. Nonsequential bills. I’m like a ninja! I can’t be traced! Shashasha!!! Pocket sand!
Then on the way home, if I see someone following me home, I make 3 left turns. If they’re STILL following me? I turn around, and I shoot them…a dirty look!
What? I’m not a psychopath. I just don’t like being followed.
Target is full of video cameras and apparently they can ID people almost instantly now. Although I wear an N95 mask in the store, so maybe that helps. Main reason for wanting parking lot pickup is to stay out of the store, as infection prevention. I do go in when I have to, but try to get out quickly. I find it is quicker to get the stuff in the store and pay at self-checkout, than to order online and then wait around for them to show up at the service desk, so I mostly don’t do the latter any more.
I was thinking about that a while back. There’s got to be some sort of upper limit to collecting data being useful. I mean at some point it becomes more economical to just buy the data from one other thousands of companies data mining phones rather then going to all the trouble of building and maintaining your own data mining app.
They just sell the data. If they need user data (beyond basics) they might buy it from a data mining company.
One big supermarket chain here has an app where you get a few cents bonus discount on already discounted items with the app coupon. The in-store announcement praises it as the first place of some insitute’s supermarket app ranking. Even if that institute were legit, the ranking fair and the spot well-deserved, I always felt like that’s a competition with no winners.
I legitimately do not have enough space on my phone to install all the crappy bloatware of all the stores I go to. They quite literally ask the impossible of me.
I have yet to see an app that does something a website could not do…
most apps are just containerized websites.
You know why?
Cause browsers do a lot to protect your data from invasive sniffing.
but if you containerize it in an app, you can remove all those pesky safety measures Which lets you turn a customer into a product by siphoning up all their data and information.
I work in a manufacturing environment. A few years ago they decided they needed a company social media app. They hired, or more likely were sold the idea by Salesforce and built this stupid ass website, then went on a fucking War campaign to get people to install the app on their phone.
They demanded. They begged. They removed functions of HR to the app exclusively. When we protested they simply said no, no room to negotiate, no give. You will use the app or you will not have access to certain information required to do your job. When they closed the plant one day and posted it on the app, they threatened to write up an entire shift that showed up to work anyway without knowing any better.
Because apparently, when you get up at 4 am the first thing you’re supposed to do every day is check an app on your phone to see if you have work that day.
They used to just push out a robo call.
When we have committee meetings with HR they go something like this.
HR: how can we get you guys on the app Committee: how can we retrieve these functions from the app HR: you can’t Committee: that’s your answer.
There have been at least 6 versions of this meeting that I have been a part of.
Most of my coworkers are older than me. Few of them have fancy phones, generally the most basic phone you can get. A number of my coworkers are on parole or work release and have limited access to smart phones for one reason or another and literally have no access to the app.
I was chatting with one of the IT gals recently and apparently resistance to the app is pretty widespread. When I said “venture capital IT firm” she gave me a high five.
They want everyone using this thing and maybe 15% of the company has it. Then they switched to Workday.
It hasn’t gone well.
I’m surprised you guys havent started the push of “If you are going to force us to have this app for essential day to day work, then you need to provide us with phones to put it on, because we can not be expected to devalue our personal devices with excess work related use”
I did mention at one of these meetings that we wouldn’t give them space on our personal devices for free, it did not change their tune. The union has been hammering them on it during negotiations but I doubt they’ll budge on that and we have bigger issues to deal with so they won’t let it be a sticking point.
Someone should analyze the app and see what permissions it needs, cause it could be a much bigger sticking point than anyone realizes if its spying on your phone activities.
Push Notifications, Mediacontrol with locker screen…
Websites can absolutely send push notifications.
Harvest data more efficiently for our corporate overlords :)
And the app is just a glorified website (Electron app).
I recently switched to GrapheneOS and decided to avoid the Google Play store entirely, and honestly, the inconveniences have been pretty limited. The only bank I’ve had trouble with is Citi, everything else (I’ve tried several others) work fine through the browser. Likewise for most services I use, the web version works fine, though occasionally I’ll need to use the “desktop” version.
Some services just don’t work properly on the web, but most of the ones I used to use through an app work just fine. Give it a try, maybe together we can send a signal that apps should only exist when they provide value.
It still depends. I live in China and the internet here suckass. Every product, say taobao(Amazon), xianyu(eBay), Alipay(PayPal), WeChat(instant msg), banking, etc. that is crucial to your daily usage mandatories an application. The API is closed and the webapp has no functionality other than a banner with “go fuck our mobile app”. The only way to bypass these privacy beast apps is to live in an isolated wood cabinet with self-sufficient agriculture.
Wow, that sucks. I imagine government policy has a significant influence here…
If the apps wouldn’t be slow React Native or whatever “multiplatform framework” crapware, then I’d actually say that well designed, native Swift UI (iOS) or Material (Android) apps can enhance the user experience for a lot of services that are otherwise offered via website. Native integrations with shortcuts, widgets, fully supporting accessibility features of the OS etc.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
The problem is most apps are just low-effort web app conversions.
If only that. Web apps are relatively well sandboxed. Most dedicated apps (that should be websites) are designed to harvest as much data as they can and spam you with notifications/ads.
Hell I use my garden diary selfhosted service via a webapp (hortusfox).
Just put a direct link on my homescreen. With the included favicon it almost looks like a native app.Yep! Most of my “apps” are just web app shortcuts or self hosted PWAs
Isn’t that the promise of App Clips? iOS and Android both allow you to run a mini app temporarily for shopping and not cluttering your system.
Open source social media app: 30MB full size.
Privative social media app: 300MB install + 500 MG data full size 700MG
Go figure. I could have thousand of apps. If they were not packed with intrusive software to get all my data and to lock the company IP.
download our app
Nah
delete account…
Literally me
Used get my haircut at one of those “no appointment needed” haircut chains. Then they got an app, and every time I went it was “Why aren’t you using the app? You need to use the app. Next time use the app. Download the app on your phone. It’s gonna be an hour wait because you didn’t use the app.”
Now I just go to a local place.
This is what CalDAV is for. We don’t need apps. We don’t need Calendly or Google Calendar or some BS.
As someone who needs to let other people schedule time on my calendar without wanting to give them every detail about my personal life I find Calendly to be incredibly useful. But I direct everyone to their website instead of the app, which I’ve never used.
You can break those up into private vs. public calendars
Great, now I have two calendars to manage.
I mean most calendar apps like the default in LineageOS & ikhal aggregate calendars & have a simple selection + coloring for the two calendars. It isn’t rocket surgery.
Okay, now how do I get that second calendar’s availability to someone who isn’t using CalDAV so we’re not playing email ping-pong trying to find a time to meet?
Why assume everyone else has Google?
But I mean, you gotta install an app if you want that functionality. The key thing is if you do or do not have full control of that app. While you allow it freedom in your 🤳📱, is it doing stuff you are not aware of that you don’t want it to do. Like I found an app to do a sound sweep. Great, but will it go thru my contacts while I’m at work? It is going to learn about who I work with because it has blue tooth access. That’s just nefarious shitty business that should be illegal. Either tell me what it does or don’t do anything other than want you say it does. I also write my own apps for photography stuff and I wouldn’t want to have to go ask a judge if I can please use my phone for specific programming I want to do.
