“It’s so hard to get movies made, and in these big movies that get made — and it’s even starting to happen with the little ones, which is what’s really freaking me out — decisions are being made by committees, and art does not do well when it’s made by committee,” she added. “Films are made by a filmmaker and a team of artists around them. You cannot make art based on numbers and algorithms. My feeling has been for a long time that audiences are extremely smart, and executives have started to believe that they’re not. Audiences will always be able to sniff out bullshit. Even if films start to be made with AI, humans aren’t going to fucking want to see those.”
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This is often over looked when people wonder why someone might sign up to something that is a trainwreck, and it usually comes down to the final film being far different than the original vision. Hell, a movie can be destroyed during script rewrites, bad scenes, and even during the editing process! Bladerunner has multiple versions based on editing the same filmed scenes. The theatrical version was ruined by insistence on a voiceover and the final cut is the best version due to what they cut out or left in.
This one sounds like the Bladerunner theatrical cut being ruined by execs, and that does suck.
The best known opposite example is Star Wars (A New Hope). When George Lucas screened it for Spielberg, Spielberg didn’t know how to tell George how terrible it was without ruining their friendship. George gave his steaming pile of shit to his wife and she and her editing partner literally built the classic we know today from it. George learned his lesson and gave Empire to someone else to direct and his wife to edit.
George is the most overrated director of all time.
One hit wonder as a director. And that hit is American Graffiti, not Star Wars.
I don’t disagree but THX1138 is pretty alright too
He’s an ideas man, maybe one of the best ever. Ideas are important for a director, but execution is arguably more important, which requires the ability to listen to others
After seeing what Disney did to Star Wars, George Lucas at least produced something decent with the prequels.
Hancock
What’s the story with that one? I’m unfamiliar.
It was a Will Smith movie about a Superman-like superhero who became reviled and then became a bum. It was exciting because this was during the height of Will Smith’s action career and it would have been the first high-budget serious superhero movie starring a person of color.
The original script reads like pure art and adrenaline from what I remember. The actual movie turned into some shit-fest that made a white PR Rep the main character and then shoehorned some weird love triangle with ancient beings and super-amnesia.
You read that right. Somehow, the first big budget gritty superhero movie starring a black man got turned into a milquetoast semi-rom-com starring a white man as a media specialist with no superpowers.
Blade.
Ghost Dog, Shaft
I think Shaft might be closer to a superhero character than Ghost Dog, but Ghost Dog had a $2 million budget, which is pennies for a studio. Shaft is a blaxploitation film, which is a totally different discussion about representation in Hollywood.
Blade had a $45 million budget, Hancock was $150 million. Blade: Trinity had the highest budget of the blade series at $65 million, and each entry introduced more white heroes who reduced Wesley Snipes’s heroic screentime.
To be fair there was a lot of rumor that Snipe’s reduced screentime had a lot to do with his own antics.
muhfuggin goalposts
I don’t know why studios keep meddling.
Movies get expensive. Studios are afraid of the risk and want to play it safe. They start meddling.
And then they ruin it. They should understand their limits and realize they’re hurting the bottom line by not trusting the people who know this stuff better than them.
Having spent way too long in corporate middle management, I can tell you that there are a lot of people in corporate offices who think they’re geniuses when they are, in fact, fucking morons.
Being right and being wrong often feel the exact same until something actually challenges that belief
Conversely, how many times have we all heard people talk about the latest Star Wars movies with the, “how the fuck did they green light the trilogy with no structure” argument?
I’m not advocating for studio meddling, but this is the highest of profile projects where it arguably would have helped. JJ Abrams set that clock back to zero
That story line was 100% the result of corporate board meddling
I think the biggest thing is they should be having artistically minded people consulting the artists. Not money minded people
It’s either that or try to make cheaper movies instead, but even then they need to trust the people who actually make the movies.
Cheaper movies are exactly what we need. There are 5 major studios (Disney, Paramount, Universal, Sony, and Warner Bros.) and between them they release about 20 movies a year with budgets over $100mil. They need to be releasing about 5. In 2023 14 movies were released with budgets above $200mil and only one (Guardians of the Galaxy vol. 3) broke even on box office sales.
Throwing money at it doesn’t make a movie good. Some movies require big budgets to effectively tell their story but most don’t and the more money a studio throws at a movie the less control the actual film makers have. The story and a film maker with a coherent vision are the two most important elements.
To prove it here are some iconic movies made for less than a million dollars: Mad Max, Napoleon Dynamite, Clerks, Paranormal Activity, Friday the 13th, Halloween. Between 1 and 2 million we pick up movies like Rocky and Saw. My Big Fat Greek Wedding cost $5 million.
Studios need to focus on 1 big movie a year and then take lots of small budget risks. The box office profits from the $5 million Get Out would pay for 25 $10 million risks. Find a decent script with a passionate filmmaker behind it, give them just enough of a budget to get the film made and stay out of the way. The overall quality of cinema would be vastly improved.
There’s a great rant by Matt Damon about how we don’t do mid-budget films any more. We get cheap crap, we get AAA level blockbusters with 200 million marketing budgets, what we don’t get is 40 million movies.
The ones big enough to tell big stories but small enough not to attract attention from mid level execs wanting a producer credit.
To be fair, a lot of people are just going to wait for any mid tier movie to show on streaming rather than go to the theater for something that isn’t a high budget spectacle.
Cheap crap is low risk, so who cares if it flops
Yep, before the mid-tier movies came out on DVD, which gave them another boost of profit - in many cases bringing the movie from a loss to profitability.
In the streaming world this mechanism doesn’t exist.
I attended a conference where a former 20th Century-Fox executive talked about the way she meddled in the trailer process with technology. It’s all about numbers and metrics – if enough people, in the right demographics, didn’t watch the whole trailer on YouTube, they’d cut the next trailer to cater to that group. Even if it wasn’t a great representation of the movie; her bonus depended on people watching the trailer.
I can’t remember the last time I saw a movie trailer that made me more excited to see a movie than less, I generally try to avoid them at this point like most advertising and feel better for it.
Yes and that too bad, I’m not sure if it was the novelty or just the naive rose-tinted glasses of youth but trailers seemed Awesome when I was a teenager.
Now? Eh.
I feel like I’ve seen too many trailers with shit exploding and the one and only funny scene of the movie, that they don’t really attract me anymore.
They used to be better. My prime example is This teaser for Thor Ragnarok.
Watch from about 1:09.
They just kept revealing the scene! How much better would that scene have been when you watch the movie if we didnt know who was going to come out that door?
Would you show the hulk? I wouldnt. Thats an amazing scene everyone who left the theatre would have been gushing over if it was a surprise.
This never would have been the trailer in previous years but today seems to be all about showing the juiciest parts of a movie just to get people talking about going to see it. Then the movie be utterly disappointing because you have already seen the best scenes and all the bits between just arent as interesting. Its like telling all of the best jokes in a movie before you go see it. Sure it gets butts in seats. Im just surprised it STILL gets butts in seats
“KPI Psychosis”
Money people want to be artists.
The real lesson here is never be in a Sony superhero movie. 9 times out of 10 they fuck it up.
Is it some sort of scam where they have to make the movie or they lose the rights to them? I can’t think of any other reason for shit like Morbius.
Yep. If you watched madam web you will clearly know how bad the movie looks. The spider lotus fan film is better than madam web. That’s how bad it is. Morbius atleast had decent visuals.
How long will I have to wait before someone says “it’s webbin time” cause i don’t think I can handle that kind of disappointment
It won’t happen. Don’t worry. Tbh there’s a chance where the morbius meme might’ve been an advertisement by sony. Or maybe they jumped onto it after seeing potential that they even re released it the 2nd time lol. It failed. So they won’t do that shit again. Small conspiracy but the amount of time the meme/shitpost lasted makes me suspicious.
There were people saying they should keep posting the meme long enough that Sony thought the film was going to do better if they released it again, and then no one should go and see it, and then that’s exactly what happened, so at least part of it was down to people like that stopping once they’d got what they wanted.
The visual effects at times were good but those moments were rare. The first appearance of Las Arañas was awful - the costume design and effects totally put me off. It had so much potential but Sony didn’t commit to making this film. They phoned it in and ruined the introduction of an influential character in the comics.
Tbh I never saw the potential. For me it was clearly another quick cashgrab or a money laundering project from sony. I honestly think there should be a way for actors to sue production companies over their atrocities called movies.
Yes. That’s how they’ve kept Spiderman.
Yeah that’s why Fox used to keep endlessly making X-Men movies, and why Fantastic Four kept getting sequels and reboots.
I think Marvel has the rights back to those now though.
But when they get it right they really get it right. The whole Miles Morales storyline came out of no where and fucking exploded.
In my mind it was great because it was an animation and execs think anime is dumb, so they won’t meddle with it. If they ever make a live action Miles Morales story it’s going to suck.
They saw the success and decided to meddle with the second one. Which is why they absolutely had to spend a whole minute on the spiderman pointing meme.
It’s also by the Lego Movie guys who Sony doesn’t want to piss off because they really don’t have any other hot creators in their corner anymore.
Hence, the 1 out of 10. I agree, the Morales series is very good.
I think it’s also because prior he was less known Spidey, whereas the others are kinda overused at this point.
I think it proves it’s time for Warner Brothers to get their heads out of their asses and do Batman Beyond .
Oooooh. Yeah I’ve had too much Batman live action but I could totally do an animated movie, and DC is generally a lot better at animated.
But, only of the use Hamill for the Joker!
Dude, Batman Beyond was so good. The premise, the villains, everything. But for some idiotic reason, they won’t use it.
I was originally thinking about this while looking up some background actor.
Like, for many of these folks, these shitty movies pay bills. Many aren’t living a life of luxury. And if you get chosen for a Sony superhero film, And the pay is good, why not take it?
Integrity?
But I guess $$$ > integrity
I can eat, keep the lights on, and have enough left over to not worry for a little bit. Otherwise I can starve on someone else’s principles.
There’s nothing morally wrong with being in a bad movie. Even if you meant artistic integrity (which is what I really assume) there has always been a lot of bad art (music, movies, plays, paintings, books, whatever) produced. There’s no shortage of people who want to be a part of that for reasons ranging from surviving to having a good time.
If you don’t like something, don’t watch it, read it, listen to it, or look at it. Don’t accuse others of not having integrity just because you can’t fathom why they do what they do.
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The Spider-verse movies are some of the best comic book movies ever made. Sony should, um, maybe make more of those best movies ever made.
Honestly the DC animated movies are mostly great. Not high art or amazing, but fun superhero films.
My guess is that the animated department has way less oversight
its how i see it as well. its a “too many cooks in the kitchen” situation.
Harley Quinn is excellent, too. Snarky & queer!
The only main DC movie I’d recommend is The Flash tbh. My expectations weren’t high, but it’s better than most of the other shit from the last few years of self-indulgent superhero rubbish.
That and James Gunn movies are pretty much all that’s worth your time.
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Yeah, don’t waste your time with either of those. Utterly forgettable.
While I understand that opinion. I think low stakes, or a non tentpole movie. If it’s big enough to make some executive look good, they’re bound to stick their soulless noses in and screw shit up.
Well, making a good superhero movie is harder than people think. At the end of the day, studios are risk adverse, and making a woman focused superhero movie is seen as riskier as it is more niche, which means they are more prone to interventions and design by committee, so it is a self perpetuating problem.
Speaking of which, Lemmy plug “Birds of Prey” (also starring some crazy clown woman) here today, in my humble and totally unbiased opinion, it’s a pretty fun superhero movie that more people should watch.
Birds of Prey remains the best film to come out of the DCEU and it’s a damn shame it’s been slept on.
Nah, James Gunn’s Suicide Squad blows it out of the water. It’s definitely one of the better ones though.
That movie was just fun as fuck. I went in with no expectations, and I came out wanting more Peachmaker, which we eventually got too which is also great.
Birds of Prey remains the best film to come out of the DCEU
Starring the best (and also the most humble) actress in the DCEU, too.
I thought it was insultingly boring. Sometimes very bad. None of it made sense and the editing/pacing was trash. HQ had some good moments though, and her performance was fun-ish. The Suicide Squad was better by a country mile IMO.
乁༼☯‿☯✿༽ㄏ
I thought it was worse than that even. It was so bad I turned it off halfway through it was so bad.
That’s an insanely low bar though.
I’ll have to check that one out. I enjoyed the second Suicide Squad that lead to the John Cena Peacemaker series. That was peak silly superhero to me.
While we’re on the topic of female driven action movies. This one got lost at the box office because it was released in early 2020. Shame, because it’s smart and exciting and doesn’t follow all the ‘revenge’ tropes people are used to.
This reminds me of SALT and The long kiss goodnight, both excellent female lead films.
Long Kiss Goodnight is my favorite Christmas movie.
Agree on both of those. I also really enjoyed The Old Guard.
I’ll have to check that one out.
Atomic Blonde was fun, but Charlize Theron is always great
Thanks for sharing. That looks awesome and I’m going to check it out! Crappy name, though. I’d have instantly given it a pass assuming it was a musical centered around a high school band.
I’ve noticed that sometimes, somehow, the coolest movies have the blandest sounding titles.
Marathon Man as a case in point.
I disagree. Captain Marvel was great. Black Widow too.
And let’s not forget all the sci-fi and action movies with female leads: Alien, Kill Bill, etc.
Birds of prey was fucking excellent. And on that note the Harley Quinn show is amazingly fun
I like that one, too! It’s no dramatic piece, like Dark Knight or Winter Soldier, but it’s a rocking good time. It knows what it’s trying to be, a silly Harley Quinn and company movie. I wish the little kid was less annoying in the movie, though lol.
It’s no dramatic piece, like Dark Knight or Winter Soldier, but it’s a rocking good time.
You get it.
But I still wish it did a bit better at the box office though…
Here is a question for you: is the income of box office so much bigger than sales/streaming income afterwards? Do actors even get money from streams/licensing/dvd sales/whatever?
Cassie died on the way back to her home planet.
I’m poochy the rockin’ dog!
More accurate would be to say she died on the way to the box office. I highly doubt these statements are going to negatively affect DJ in any way since there’s zero chance the story will continue.
I worked on that movie. I can tell you that the crew knew it was going to be a stinker for the entire time it was being made.
It was GREAT money while it lasted even though Sony was unbelievably stingy at times. We (the crew) quickly came to look at it as a box office writeoff.
As we always say,
I don’t write em. I just light em.
Well, this is the second bad franchise she has been in.
It’s a shame, because it’s very easy to be typecast as an actor when you repeatedly star in flops, and while few directly criticise her performance in either movie, I imagine she’d be concerned that she’ll be the first name on the list for lazy cash-grabs, and bottom of the list for anything she’d like to do.
It’s why I question those that criticise her for criticising the movie. After all, this is her career, and if there were shenanigans that resulted in a poor movie that wasn’t what she expected to come out, she should call it out.
It’s just so tough breaking in these days as the child of two famous actors.
Nepo truce?
She could embrace it and become another Nicolas Cage
50 shades is at least competently made trash, not designed by committee
It also brought in a handsome box office. Does not mean it is a good movie (it was properly horrible in my view, could not watch it, but some of the reviews were fun!), just that people with tastes different to mine exist in numbers. From what I can see about the new release, we won’t be able to use this defence here.
I never saw 50 shades (though if the premise appeals to anyone they should read some stjepan sejic, he did graphic novels in response to it that are informed by actual knowledge of the topic), but folding ideas’s reviews of them made them sound like a competently made piece of trash followed by two pieces of trash ruined by an artist and committee.
The book is bad, the first movie at least lampshades a lot of the stupidity.
The movie franchise got worse as the book’s author started to interfere more.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
As she’s previously hinted during the movie’s publicity tour, Johnson said the project’s script about a paramedic with psychic powers was radically changed from what she originally read.
But sometimes in this industry, you sign on to something, and it’s one thing and then as you’re making it, it becomes a completely different thing, and you’re like, ‘Wait, what?’ But it was a real learning experience, and of course it’s not nice to be a part of something that’s ripped to shreds, but I can’t say that I don’t understand.
My feeling has been for a long time that audiences are extremely smart, and executives have started to believe that they’re not.
Even if films start to be made with AI, humans aren’t going to fucking want to see those.”
“Like, ‘Dakota Johnson Breaks Her Silence On Madame Web’s Fucking Box Office Failure,’” the actress said with a laugh.
Over the weekend, Johnson’s co-star Sydney Sweeney likewise commented about the film’s reaction while hosting NBC’s Saturday Night Live, quipping in her monologue, “You have seen me in Anyone but You and Euphoria.
The original article contains 426 words, the summary contains 179 words. Saved 58%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
My feeling has been for a long time that audiences are extremely smart
Wow that’s funny because my feeling has always been exactly the opposite. It’s why quippy, vapid bullshit like the Avengers and star wars is so popular.
Fine art only people are so goddamn exhausting.
I love art but sometimes art is bullshit I can watch once and that’s ok. Other times art is shit like avatar that I’ll watch over and over as comfort tv for life because it’s good enough to be worth it. And then other times I’ll gladly spend 4 hours watching the first 2 hours of a 3 hour video on twilight because it’s very artistically dense and my wife and I need to keep discussing the bits of it. Not everything I watch can be the latter, some of the stuff will need to be the former.
Wait a sec. Obviously you’re not talking about Avatar… but are you talking about Avatar, Avatar, or Avatar?
Obviously Rama
Nah Aang and Korra
Natalie has hit it out of the park with her last several videos. Always worth the wait.
Bruh sometimes you need to feed the caveman part of your brain. Smart people know that. The unga bunga spectacle is why you go.
I think there’s different audiences. You’re referring to a general, mainstream audience, while I think she’s referring to an audience that would be interested in an artsy film going into it.
I have room in my heart for both Paul Thomas Anderson films and Infinity War.
Just because I like a good wine and cheese party doesn’t mean I can’t also appreciate a day at the amusement park.
I don’t think anyone believes Madame Web was supposed to be an artsy film.
I honestly haven’t seen it but I think the point still stands that there can be different types of audiences with different tastes. It seems like she’s afraid everything is going to go the route of Star Wars and Marvel.
You’re definitely Professional Movie Reviewer material
“Do you post as ‘Magnolia_Fan’ on MoviePoopShoot.com?”
Gonna have to agree here, how else could a movie like Beverly Hills Chihuahua get made and also have two sequels.
Also, while AI wasn’t as good as it was 8 years ago check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY7x2Ihqjmc
Unpopular opinion: Beverly Hills Chihuahua knows that it’s a stupid movie and leans into it. It’s actually kinda funny.
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That’s fair, and I should feel embarrassed that it was the first example that came to mind when there are so many better examples.
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How many more of her films do we have to criticize before she agrees to quit the industry entirely?
Because I’m willing to put in the work.
That’s gross. If you don’t like her, don’t watch her films
Yeah sorry I’m not gonna feel bad about criticizing Hollywood’s least charismatic nepo-baby whose presence is taking job opportunities away from actors who pursued the career the right way rather than merely having the right parents and connections.
I think it’s important to make the distinction that not wishing fame, fortune, and incredible opportunities for somebody is not the same as wishing ill on them. I don’t want her to suffer some poor fate, I don’t want her to get in any way harmed, I don’t her to be miserable. I just don’t want undeserving stiff acting being rewarded with fame and wealth when other vastly more deserving people could be taking those roles. I hope she has a wonderful life as a regional manager at In & Out, for example.
And yes, I feel this way about all nepo babies.
And frankly, actors in general; once you’ve made your mark on the industry and secured a comfortable wealth for you and your family, retire and allow those opportunities to go to others, but obviously that’s vastly less egregious than people being raised to pinnacle of culture just for coming out of the right vagina.
edit: typo
Strongly agree with nepotism being bad, but why would talented actors/artists retire? They live through their performance, and we the people enjoy watching.
Because the Rock is probably already half a billionaire; he doesn’t need any more fucking money.
If they want to work for free, fine, whatever. Otherwise, let other people enjoy some opportunities for once.
We may have a very different opinion on who a talented actor is then. ) Talented businessman is not equal to a talented actor, just a popular one that can sell.
Maybe. But I’d rather see a no-name with student debt deliver a 9.2 performance in a lead role than see a near-billionaire deliver a perfect 10.0 performance in the same role, 10 out of 10 times. I understand that is a matter of preference and personal priorities, however.
I’d prefer a solution that includes both. This is my main gripe with Disney (and the rest of big guys, but mostly them): they just bought out everything and everyone thus killing the competition. Viewers’ time available to watch a movie and cash they are prepared to pay for it is limited, so now only a generic sh…stuff actually reaches the screens. All to make shareholders happy, very much against the interests of the public. Lets see if the market can solve this.
Sad to say but she’s wrong. The general populace doesn’t give a shit about authenticity in film. They want brainless films with lame, repetitive jokes and Minions and/or Groots.
People will trip over eachother to watch a film by their favorite superhero company before even considering whether the last one they saw was worth watching or not.Just like car enthusiasts, keyboard enthusiasts, FOSS enthisiasts, et al. mainstream films are not made for the enthusiasts—they are made for the average consumer to make a profit.
I mean… Madame Web is doing worse than Morbius. Clearly even the average consumer isn’t interested anymore.
Starting by saying, I haven’t seen this movie so this is an outsiders opinion.
This appears to be completely different than your standard super hero fatigue. Some movies are just bad.
That said, the Groots things you’re expressing aren’t new. Action movies have always had dumb plots filmed with one liners all over. The feelings you’re expressing is that Super Hero movies are just also action movies. Personally, I find them more engaging and entertaining than non-super hero action movies specifically because they aren’t trying to be realistic but also have a continuity that I enjoy. That’s not a general populace thing. That’s a specific reason I enjoy them.
The minions complaint is just super weird, though. Those movies are tailored to kids. Literally zero adults should be taking them as more than a kids movie.
This is too much angst to carry around for AN ACTOR. Get a grip
God forbid a woman has an opinion on her own industry!
Also an industry famous for people with big opinions
Sorry, actress.
